Nice to know that racism is still alive and well.

[Perfection]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I read the article twice, doesn't it say they also held an all-black prom?

Are they racist also?

It says they are deeply devided on the issue, hardly a hotbed of clan activity.

Looks like a petty attempt to label people to me.

The only did it before there was an integrated prom

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I read the article twice, doesn't it say they also held an all-black prom?

Are they racist also?

It says they are deeply devided on the issue, hardly a hotbed of clan activity.

Looks like a petty attempt to label people to me.

Yes you caught me. Just one more of my petty american bashing attempts.

Will you ever admit just maybe that something that is either done in your country or by your country is wrong? Or is that an impossibility in your mind?

Are all Americans racist? Of course not. Are some? Absolutely. Are people in that part of the country more rascist then most? I would tend to believe yes to that one as well.

(and for the record there was no black only prom - just an integrated prom which was an attempt by "the better people" to build bridges instead of walls.)

 

[test_specimen]

Sad to see some kids demonstrate their upbringing and education in this event. Graedius argument with them being too young and stupid can't really count, after all most of them will drive in their cars there, so they should have some maturity (what age do they have 16 or 17?).

Ridiculous to stage an event, for the purpose of excluding people. It's not like they don't invite people they can't stand because they pick their nose or smell, but because of some attribute that can't possibly have a negative/positive influence on them.

 

[Stapel]

The biggest problem is not what these kids vote, but the fact that this school allows a poll / election / vote where this answer is possible. This makes the school racist imho.

Edit: Hmm, reread the whole thing. The school has apperently chosen not to take its responsibility. It seems the organization is in the hands of the kids?
Anyway, I think a school should forbid its students to organize a segregated whatever. I would not recommend such a school to anyone!

 

[MontyPythonRule]

Are people in that part of the country more rascist then most? I would tend to believe yes to that one as well.

They are not more racist than elsewhere its just they have more chances of being racist. If you live in a society where 55% are white and 44% are black then, of course, there will be more racism than a society where 95% are white. Racism stems from fear and the larger the number the more the fear.

The biggest problem is not what these kids vote, but the fact that this school allows a poll / election / vote where this answer is possible. This makes the school racist imho.

So it is everyone's right to vote as along as they vote a certain way. How can you claim to be a free society if the people cannot vote for what they want?

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by MontyPythonRule
So it is everyone's right to vote as along as they vote a certain way. How can you claim to be a free society if the people cannot vote for what they want?

What we've got here is the difference between american freedom and the 'european', or at least dutch freedom:

In our constitution we have this: the basic of freedom is that one shall not be discriminated on believe, race, sexe, sexual behaviour, or whatever. As one is free, one should not be discriminated on whatever.

How can you claim to be a free society if the people can vote for a prom where a certain race is not wanted?
Than the people of that race are not as free as others!

This idea might contradict, but it is food for thought!

 

[test_specimen]

Total freedom does not exist in the US either. You can't just make up a vote, to kill a random person, and if the majority agrees, you are allowed to kill him.

Some people just don't get it, that freedom ends where the freedom of others is infringed. Also the discrimination by skin color is a totally random distinction, and has no scientific basis, whatever reason else you give.

That they made a vote on this (where blacks most likely were not allowed to participate) is even more hypocritical than if a group of students decided for themselves that they just wanted a party among themselves.

I don't see, why anyone would want to defend their stupidity.

 

[Zcylen]

why so surpized? racism is very common nowadays.
against black people, latin people or asians in the US.
well, not only in the US but in many countries there are different forms of racism.
it shouldnt be allowed

 

[Scrimshaw]

Originally posted by RedWolf


Yes you caught me. Just one more of my petty american bashing attempts.

Will you ever admit just maybe that something that is either done in your country or by your country is wrong? Or is that an impossibility in your mind?

Are all Americans racist? Of course not. Are some? Absolutely. Are people in that part of the country more rascist then most? I would tend to believe yes to that one as well.

(and for the record there was no black only prom - just an integrated prom which was an attempt by "the better people" to build bridges instead of walls.)

while I agree that racism is more widespread in that part of the US I'm not sure it's as bad you seem to believe. For the record my family comes from the southeastern US, kentucky to be exact, so I know the area. Racism is bad there when compared to canada but it's not quite got a KKK hall on every corner(or any corner) either. this is really I think an example of a few making it look bad for the rest.

No offense to any americans in the area but this is only what I've observed when I've been down there. By ignorant I only mean they tend to think the world ends at the US border. "Canada? what's that?" is a statement I've heard more then once there.

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by Stapel


What we've got here is the difference between american freedom and the 'european', or at least dutch freedom:

In our constitution we have this: the basic of freedom is that one shall not be discriminated on believe, race, sexe, sexual behaviour, or whatever. As one is free, one should not be discriminated on whatever.

Out of curiousity, in The Netherlands, can you have exclusive, private clubs? A woman's only gym, or a men's only golf club?

On the belief bit, does a church have to accept me as a member if I actively preach subservience to the devil during their prayer gatherings?

I just want some clarification on this system of 'Dutch Freedom'.

 

[Double Barrel]

While I do not condone what these students are doing, I find this whole debate full of hypocrisy.

The following list is a very short example of an extremely long list of black-only organizations that, with a couple of exceptions, are exclusively for black membership. I have also included various black-centrists events that would be called racist if the word "white" was substituted for the word "black".

Ms. Black USA Pageant
The 2003 Black Arts Festival @ Harvard University
US Congressional Black Caucus
100 Black Men of America Inc.
Acapulco Black Film Festival
American Association of Blacks in Energy
Black Women's Network
Congress of National Black Churches
International Org. of Black Security Execs.
NAACP
Nat'l. African American Speakers Association
Nat'l. Assn. of African American Studies
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Journalists
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Telecomm. Profs. Inc.
Nat'l. Assn. of Blacks in Criminal Justice
Nat'l. Assn. of Negro Bus & Prof Women's Club
Nat'l. Black Caucus of State Legislators
Nat'l. Black MBA Association
Nat'l. Conference of Black Mayors Inc
Nat'l. Org. of Black Law Enforcement Execs.
Black History Month
African American Male Empowerment Summit
Airport Minority Advisory Council
Black Enterprise & AXA/Advisors Ski Challenge
Black Filmmakers Hall of Fame, Inc.
Blacks In Government
Harvard Black Law Students Association
Nat'l. Alliance of Black School Educators
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Accountants Inc.
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Scuba Divers
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Women Entrepreneurs Inc
Nat'l. Black Assn. for Speech-Lang. & Hearing
Nat'l. Black Child Development Institute
Nat'l. Black Nurses Association
Nat'l. Coalition of 100 Black Women
Nat'l. Council of Negro Women Inc.
Nat'l. Society of Black Engineers
Professional Women of Color
The Organization of Black Airline Pilots Inc.
African American Women on Tour
Assn for Improvement of Minorities in the IRS
Black Enterprise/Bank of America Entre. Conf
Black Psychiatrists of Amer Transcultural Sem
Conference of Minority Public Administrators
International Black Women's Congress
Nat'l. Assn. of Black College Broadcasters
Nat'l. Assn. of Black Social Workers
Nat'l. Assn. of Black-Owned Broadcasters Inc.
Nat'l. Black Caucus - Local Elected Officials
Nat'l. Black Flight Attendants of Amer. Inc.
Nat'l. Black Police Association Inc.
Nat'l. Coalition-Blacks for Reparations in Am
Nat'l. Forum for Black Public Administrators
San Diego Nat'l. and Int'l. Black Film Fest.

Racism and bigotry can go both ways...not that any of the above examples are considered racist or bigoted by this poster. Perhaps certain things are a matter of perspective.

 

[test_specimen]

Most of those organisations are there to aid people who have been discriminated against because of their colour of skin. Why would you, as a white, want to join a club that makes sure that no one takes you less serious because of the colour of your skin?

Next you will start complaining that toilets are discriminating because you cannot go to a women's toilet. But just remember that they are not allowed in the men's toilet either. Or was that example not obvious enough.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by test_specimen
Graedius argument with them being too young and stupid can't really count, after all most of them will drive in their cars there, so they should have some maturity (what age do they have 16 or 17?).

Never confuse age with maturity.

And I didn't say it doesn't matter because they're stupid, I said it stupid teenagers don't mean 'racism is alive and well' as the topic suggests.

Originally posted by Stapel
How can you claim to be a free society if the people can vote for a prom where a certain race is not wanted?
Than the people of that race are not as free as others!

This idea might contradict, but it is food for thought!

There is a difference between being free and have the right to be included in private events. I discriminate when I invite people to my house on non-scientific reasons as well... if I like them or not. People don't have the RIGHT to come here.

So why does the distinction between people I like attending my private party more or less 'free' than white people? Is it racism? Yes. Is it wrong? Of course. Is it illegal? No.

Originally posted by Zcylen
why so surpized? racism is very common nowadays.
against black people, latin people or asians in the US.

As compared to 50 years ago?
These things don't exist in a vaccuum. Maybe it is why this topic annoys me so much... so much progress made and a few teenagers in Georgia and we get 'panties in a twist' contest between people who want to be the most shocked & horrified by it.

Originally posted by Scrimshaw
By ignorant I only mean they tend to think the world ends at the US border. "Canada? what's that?" is a statement I've heard more then once there.

To be fair, I've said the same thing.
If mocking Canada equates ignorance you're right on the money

Originally posted by test_specimen
Most of those organisations are there to aid people who have been discriminated against because of their colour of skin.

Wow, what an excuse for a neverending line of exclusionary orginizations. There was a time when the Brits were dominated by Romans so I'm going to start a no-Italians film festival... to, you know, right a historical wrong.

 

[china444]

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

Where do white people even get the idea that they are better than black people?

Ridiculous.

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by Greadius
Wow, what an excuse for a neverending line of exclusionary orginizations. There was a time when the Brits were dominated by Romans so I'm going to start a no-Italians film festival... to, you know, right a historical wrong.

The difference there is that organizations like the NAACP were not started to right a historical wrong, but an ongoing, or at the very least, recent wrong. Whether the need for those orgainizations still exists or not is another matter entirely.

 

[Renata]

@ Greadius - I think you underestimate what it's like to be in a minority, and how much it can help just once in a while to get together with those like you.

I am in a minority of *one* at my current job. Out of roughly 70 people in my department, I am one of only about 10 women, and the only woman born in the United States. I have no one at all to talk to. The Chinese people, male and female, stick together like glue, get together to read Chinese-language newspapers at lunch and speak in Chinese, by and large, even in the labs. Ditto the sizable contingent of mostly South Asian muslim men (except they tend to use English in the labs), ditto the handful of Russians. A last group of mostly American-born and Latin-American men sits together at lunch and plays hackysack outside in the warm weather - I'm not welcome there either, really.

Who am I supposed to talk to? I love my job, but it is a very lonely existence. Maybe if I was a more capable person socially I would be able to penetrate one or more of these groups, but I can't. If there existed a local chapter of 'American Women Analytical Chemists' or some such, I would join in a heartbeat, discrimination be d*nmed, just to have someone to talk to about what I do.

I don't begrudge a single one of those groups their existence.

Renata

 

[Hitro]

I don't really see why it should matter if it is their right to do this.
Of course it is their right, but does it make them any less racist?
Definately not.

 

[Perfection]

But Hitro isn't the school at fault for allowing the advertising via posters to take place in school?

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by Dralix
The difference there is that organizations like the NAACP were not started to right a historical wrong, but an ongoing, or at the very least, recent wrong. Whether the need for those orgainizations still exists or not is another matter entirely.

Isn't that the crux of the issue?
Are private exclusionary orginizations right or wrong under what conditions?
What about Mosque's that don't allow women into certain parts of their worshipping ceremonies... that isn't righting a wrong, that is exclusionary for a superfluous purpose, but okay because its... religion?

Originally posted by Renata
Greadius - I think you underestimate what it's like to be in a minority, and how much it can help just once in a while to get together with those like you.

Don't make assumptions

I know its important to feel like belonging, to feel wanted... but that doesn't exactly play favorably into the whites of the school having their own dance. Maybe they just want to be around people like them.

Originally posted by Renata
If there existed a local chapter of 'American Women Analytical Chemists' or some such, I would join in a heartbeat, discrimination be d*nmed, just to have someone to talk to about what I do.

I don't begrudge a single one of those groups their existence.

Neither do I. I think any exclusionary club like that has a limited purpose, though. I would never want to take away their right to do it, and won't call anyone racist or sexist just for being a member.

Still, where is the exception for misguided white youth? Forcing them to associate won't cure their ills, anymore than forcing the South-Asian Muslim men to sit with you make you feel anymore welcome.

Originally posted by Perfection
But Hitro isn't the school at fault for allowing the advertising via posters to take place in school?

What reasoning do they have to stop it?
Is it illegal? Against school board rules? They just switched themselves two years ago... you can't expect everyone to embrace progress because its the right thing to do. These things take a little time.

 

[Renata]

It's hard to assign motives to people you don't know, but given the location and the situation it seems likely that the motivation for the all-white prom was not to bring the whites together, but to keep the blacks out. The two things might look the same from a distance, but there's a world of difference in intent, and in effect.

What should the school have done? I would have expected them to tear down the posters, yes. The school might not have any control over the prom(s) themselves, but neither are they obligated to allow them to be advertised, and refusing to take a stand makes them look as bigoted as their students. Maybe they are.


Renata