No Wonders?

[Polycrates]

A good thing to do is identify crappy wonders and resolve never to build them. Here's a list I stick by:

Parthenon (WHOO A NEGLIGIBLE BOOST TO YOUR GP FARM)

Parthenon is a great wonder, that has been boosted a hell of a lot in bts. It acts as half the Philosophical trait, which is hardly something I'd consider weak, and if specialists have more than a token role in your empire it gives a hell of a boost. Particularly good when you're desperate for a certain type of GP but are limited in the number of that specialist you can run (mmmmmm Great Spies).
Plus now it's sufficiently late that you don't have to wreck your crucial early development to have a chance to get it.

Schwedegon Paya (I think I mongled the spelling of that. Anyway OR and Theocracy are easy to get the old fashioned way, Free Religion is great late but kinda sucks early, and Pacifism sucks no matter how far into the game you are)

Can be very nice if you've entirely ignored the religious path. And Pacifism is one of the best civics in the game.

Angkor Wat (Because eeeeeeveryone wants to run tons of priests and crank out swarms of great prophets in the mid-late game!!!!! no.)

If you have a decent holy city without a shrine that far into the game, it can become quite hard to generate a prophet for it (since you can generally only run one priest). The 3 extra priest specialists let you generate the prophet you need, plus the hammers don't hurt at all.

 

[Bast]

Bast: got a GE and MC but not building Wonders? Lightbulb machinery; half of maces, half of optics, 1000 free beakers early in the game.

I rushed the Pyramids which was the first time I had ever done that.

I think that what learned in this thread and in my game is that absolutely NO WONDERS approach is not exactly the best. I have to look at whether I have stone and marble and a high production city and work things out.

This game was an absolute exception because I got Tenochtitlan SO early. Not every game is going to be like this. In this game, I guess I was being opportunistic and took the Pyramids because it was right there. And I think that's a good thing, no?

 

[futurehermit]

Getting the pyramids off a GE is always a good thing. Too bad in BtS that is no longer possible.

 

[Bast]

Getting the pyramids off a GE is always a good thing. Too bad in BtS that is no longer possible.

Um, this is BTS I'm playing. I got it with a GE. 500 hammers saved.

 

[martin031]

Getting the pyramids off a GE is always a good thing. Too bad in BtS that is no longer possible.

Do you mean from the old Great Wall engineer GP points? Because the first time i have actully tried and executed getting an engineer was from the oracle to MC, hire an engineer in BTS. It works most of the time (on monarch).

I really like this strategy because my city can produce something other than an expensive wonder if I do not have stone/marble. Sometimes I supplement my gp pool with a scientist, if that pops no big loss. One time I screwed up though and built the collosus and popped a GM (I think right). It seemed a bit too early to make great use of him so I settled him, and lesson learned.

 

[Jet]

The gateway wonder theory is the belief that use of a lower classed wonder can lead to the subsequent use of "harder", more dangerous wonders. The term is also used to describe introductory experiences to addictive buildings. Some believe Stonehenge, The Pyramids, and The Great Library are gateway wonders.

Some research suggests that serious wonder abusers adopt an atypical wonder use sequence with construction of other wonders initiated before The Pyramids or Great Library. There are many architectural similarities between various wonders of abuse. Individual civil histories show that "hard" wonder builders do progress from one wonder to another, but the reasons are not clear enough to generalise a gateway.

 

[Percy]

Jet, what were you trying to say? I just didn't understand a thing ^^

 

[futurehermit]

Um, this is BTS I'm playing. I got it with a GE. 500 hammers saved.

How did you manage that?

There are two possibilities:

1) You researched metal casting, built a forge, and ran an eng

2) You researched math, built the h. gard, and got an eng

Either way that means pyramids were not built for quite a long time and I would say you were quite lucky then

 

[Cam_H]

But I did get Metal Casting before Writing and got the forge up because I thought I could use Tenochtitlan as a production city and when the city was growing fast, I thought, ok why not pop in an Engineer there?

I guess it demonstrates that the Metal Casting > Pyramids slingshot is still do-able at least on Noble level.

The slow starts that the AI has now in BtS - poorly defended cities and slow technology progression for the BC years - seems a backward step, and I am leaning to agree with another lengthy thread in this forum that BtS is easier than Warlords, although I've yet to play with Aggressive AI turned on.

 

[popejubal]

How did you manage that?

There are two possibilities:

1) You researched metal casting, built a forge, and ran an eng

2) You researched math, built the h. gard, and got an eng

Either way that means pyramids were not built for quite a long time and I would say you were quite lucky then

I'm still playing Monarch (except for my current Settler "how fast can I get to Alpha Centauri" game), so I'm certainly not racing against Emperor and Deity AI civs with Stone, but I've noticed that the Pyramids aren't being built until relatively late and if I want the Pyramids, I can grab them. Now, it's not often that I have enough turns after Metal Casting to buy them with a Great Engineer, but I could see it happening in BtS.

 

[madscientist]

Getting a great engineer as the first great person is not that difficult in BTS. Build the oracle, get metal casting, build a forge fast (chop it out), run an engineer. You have a chance for a great prophet or an engineer. Odd favor the prophet nut there is a decent enough chance for the pyramids. Building the forge in a different city and running the engineer there is a bigger chance.

 

[Kietharr]

No wonders is the best way to kick the habit, later on you can come back and start using them again, but only ones that would help you out, no chichen itza or hagia sophia.

Just think of it this way, 8 axemen cost less than a wonder and will easily capture 1-3 cities for you, at least one of them being a capital site. Later on, real stacks of doom still cost less than most wonders and one or two is easily enough to take a rival out.

 

[Mesousa]

I think that what learned in this thread and in my game is that absolutely NO WONDERS approach is not exactly the best. I have to look at whether I have stone and marble and a high production city and work things out.

This game was an absolute exception because I got Tenochtitlan SO early. Not every game is going to be like this. In this game, I guess I was being opportunistic and took the Pyramids because it was right there. And I think that's a good thing, no?

*shakes head sadly* For a second, you seemed determined to overcome your addiction, but then you got weak again at practically the first opportunity (because rushing the Pyramids was so easy and made you feel good, right?), and now you're already rationalizing ... face it, you're addicted. Plain and simple. Here, take this leaflet ...

 

[mudphud]

How did you manage that?

There are two possibilities:

1) You researched metal casting, built a forge, and ran an eng

2) You researched math, built the h. gard, and got an eng

Either way that means pyramids were not built for quite a long time and I would say you were quite lucky then

I don't know if it is a bug but in the last few games I've played the pyramids didn't get built for a long time. I think it was around 400 ad in my last game. I kept thinking about building them but figured they had to be almost finished somewhere (and I was warring quite a bit). This was on monarch epic speed (regular AI).

 

[BronzeAge]

This is a good idea. Once you learn to play like this you can add in the occasional wonder. But going wonder-crazy is a good way to get killed at higher levels unless you are industrious + have stone/marble + have a plan in mind or are going for a strat like Obsolete's.

Focus on horizontal and vertical expansion. For horizontal you want workers and settlers early and then lots of military later. For vertical you want food surplus + hereditary rule + health resources/buildings.

Focus on economy. This means pottery > currency > col > cs > liberalism > printing press > democracy > astronomy

This may be mentioned somewhere else, but someone explain what is the difference between Vertical and Horizontal expansion? How did these terms get invented?

 

[popejubal]

This may be mentioned somewhere else, but someone explain what is the difference between Vertical and Horizontal expansion? How did these terms get invented?

Reference:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=240260

Vertical expansion is growing "tall" cities - well developed cities with either lots of specialists or lots of population working lots of productive tiles.

Horizontal expansion is growing "out" with your cities - founding lots of cities to claim lots of land even though this forces you to spread your development so that you end up with individual cities that are not as well developed.

Too much Vertical expansion means that you will not have enough land to succeed over the course of a game. Too much Horizontal expansion causes your empire to collapse under its own Maintenance.


(...and before anyone tells me about a win that they had on a Deity OCC, obviously if you won that game, then you did not have "too much" Vertical expansion.)

 

[Bast]

Well the purpose of this thread was that I was going to kick my wonder addiction but I wanted input from people.

It was obvious that what I suggested initially wasn't going to work. It would've improved my game in some areas but made it worse in others by building NO wonders.

Case in point, if you're going for space race victory you have to get the Space elevator. Or The Sistine Chapel for cultural.

I've identified 3-4 wonders for the entire game for my favourite leaders and I'm going to try a strategy where when I play them, I only build those wonders. For example, Pyramids, Parthenon and Sistine Chapel (if going for culture victory) for Pericles. BTW, I ended up rushing Parthenon with my second engineer. A nice pair of wonders to have without having to spend a single hammer on wonders.

So I'll see how I go with that.

But thanks for the suggestions.

 

[Harbourboy]

Do you think this is a good strategy to kick the habit?

Yes, I do. The best thing I ever did was move up to higher levels where half the time you can't build many wonders anyway. As someone else has said, the best wonder is the horde of a dozen axemen - this wonder provides free enemy cities. Pretty powerful stuff. When I stopped building wonders, I started winning at Emperor and above.

 

[MestreLion]

I think some of you guys are missing the OP's main point: he never said that "Wonders are bad" or "Wonders are not worth building". He only said that he is too addicted in building wonders, and he wants to try a different approch by not building any and seeing how it goes.

Yes, of course this is really restrictive, and thats the idea! If he can win even not building a single Wonder, then he proves himself (and himself only) that maybe he should reconsider his wonder priorities next time he play, as they are great but some are not essential.

I wish the OP good luck on that. Im also really addicted on building all wonders (Prince/Monarch), so addicted that when the AI buids one, i usually reload 20 turns just to change plans (its lame, i know). So im looking forward to see the results of this experience. Getting rid of (or at least revaluate) old habits is always a good idea. Besides, it will be a fun (and tough) game. GL!

 

[OKScientist]

axident, I'm playing on Noble but remember I jumped on Montezuma very early. He only had a warrior and a worker in his city. Is this normal even for Noble? I had the warriors next to borders and then stormed in. Here's a screenshot of when it happened. I know it was incredibly lucky.

This can certainly happen at Noble. In my latest game, my lone warrior razed Berlin in 3775 BC (had no defense at all) and then captured Beijing in 3190 BC (by winning a 2.5% battle against Qin's only warrior). So I took out
2 rivals by 3190 BC!

Needless to say, I still keep that warrior safe in an inland city, he 's infantry now but I won't let him fight any more. I buy him drinks and treat him as my equal.