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[BTS] Noble Shadow game - Huyana Capac

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Shikhar Agrawal, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    I thought this much units are enough so went for forges
    I didn't put them so that archers don't attack , was that mistake
    I don't need iron now since I don't need swordsman now
     
  2. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Gonna dig into the save and make a fairly lengthy set of comments; sorry if this ends up a little disorganized.

    Industrious Forges when you have gold and gems are a good building, but right as you start a war is not the time to begin them. For that matter, you're not that crunched for happiness. About to get Ivory in Huamanga, that's +1 happiness to all cities. Calendar will get you silk and Incense when Machu Picchu's borders expand in 13 turns. Ethiopia has Monarchy; with any luck you can extort it out of them in a peace deal and start getting wine for another +1 happiness. The silver and fur to the northeast is still unclaimed for whenever you get around to it; dropping a couple cities up there will cost less than building 5 forges, which you're doing right now. Right now you need more military units, and if you're happy with how many military units you have I'd prioritize settling the northeast (silver/corn, crab/deer/furs) and getting more workers out (you have multiple cities working unimproved tiles, which should always be a red flag to either whip more population away or build more workers).

    That army is a bit dicey. You're looking at 4 turns moving your army to the capital, 2 turns bombarding city defense away, and 1 more turn actually assaulting the city (start by sending in a couple catapults to soften the stack up). 4 catapults, 3 axes, and 4 chariots isn't exactly overwhelming force, especially when Ethiopia can research Feudalism (you can check that in the f4 foreign advisor screen) so those archers might get a surprise upgrade to longbows. It'll probably work here, but... it's not even half the size you'd really prefer.

    Speaking of hitting earlier. When you are planning to attack someone, commit to the prep. No half-measures; if you're going to war, go all in. It's okay to stack 2 or 3 whip unhappiness at a single city. You don't want to whip with zero hammers invested (there's a penalty for that), but it may be okay to whip every second turn for a bit when putting together an army. And if ever there's a time to chop your forests, that's it. If you do 2 2-pop whips each in Ollantaytambo, Machu Picchu, Corihuayrachina, 3 in Cuzco, 3 in Tiwanaku, had your 9 workers chop a forest each, used 160 gold to upgrade a pair of Quechua to axes, and pulled in your chariots, in less than 10 turns you could have pulled together something like 10 catapults, 12 axes, and a half-dozen chariots. Yes, that would have temporarily slowed your economy, but you'd have an army that would crush Ethiopia and with modest reinforcements might well be able to carry on to take out Genghis Khan and Justinian as well.

    The Quechua on Ethiopia's iron does nothing. Move him to somewhere like the forest 1E of the corn and he actually blocks out a decent region where barbarians can no longer spawn, or upgrade him to an axe and have him join your army. I'd also upgrade the other Quechua up there to an axe so he's a more reliable barbarian defense. Right now if a random barb warrior shows up and kills him, that's a big loss - you might outright lose Corihuayrachina.

    Corihuayrachina is growing past its improvements. Be better to either get a worker or whip the pop towards something useful instead of growing in size that fast. The farm should be 1E of the lake, not 1W; that way it spreads irrigation to the east, where you can eventually use it to irrigate that corn. That barb city northwest of it is inconvenient; ideally you'd have wanted to put a city 1NE of that spot where it gets crab, deer, and fur (chop + whip a library, whip a work boat, work deer + crab + 2 scientists and forget about the city). Since you've got some empty land with good resources to the northeast, maybe build axemen (to fill out the area preventing barb spawns) and/or settlers there. It's a bit late in the game for this now, but often on bigger continents with one of your first coastal cities you want to find an opportunity to sneak in building a work boat or two into the build queue a little bit after you get Writing and send them out exploring the coast. That coastal knowledge helps hook up trade networks, and sometimes lets you find AIs you haven't met yet. In this case you can kind of see that the northern coast is an icy dead end, but the southern coast you haven't even found Genghis Khan, who is presumably somewhere east of Ethiopia since the two are at war.

    Tiwanaku is working an unimproved plainshill instead of running a scientist. Only do this if you are desperate for production (e.g., trying to rush out military units for an attack), not when you're slow-building a Forge. Since it has that barracks, it'd be nice to put that to use getting another couple military units for your attack. Also, the forge there doesn't do much - it's a city with trivial hammer production and you ought to have a bunch of happiness surplus from other sources pretty soon. Later in the game maybe when the city is pushing size 15 you might start thinking about that forge. Since you have a Barracks there, putting it on building military units won't hurt. When you're happy with your military and don't want more for a while, then maybe shift to a Forge in preparation for a potential military boom around Military Tradition research.

    You don't need (or want) two farms on Thracian, especially since you got a lighthouse and it has a lake tile - that makes the lake tile 3F3C, which is better than the farm to work anyways (switch it now, your city governor is not). Speaking of the lighthouse by the way, you want to put a little thought into getting lighthouses and not just default to them. 60 hammers isn't a ton, but it could (for example) get one extra worker right now, which would generate more hammers on an ongoing basis, or a couple extra chariots to make your pending attack stronger, or most of the way to that library. Coastal cities with seafood resources they are working often want to get lighthouses early-ish, and Financial leaders with coastal cities that have the happy cap to work 2F3C coastal tiles generally want them eventually, but just put a bit of thought into it. It looks a little premature to me here. When you get Calendar that Bananas tile becomes a 5F plantation, at which point between that and the 3F lake tile you've got enough food surplus to live with for a while.

    Why are there three workers stacked on a forest south of Cuzco? With rare exceptions, workers generally operate solo - you burned 3 worker-turns moving onto that tile where using just a single worker would have burned 1 worker-turn instead.

    Cuzco is working an unimproved grass forest tile. It could be running a second scientist or stealing a hamlet tile from Machu Picchu, both of which would be better uses for its pop. Also that forest tile it's working should be chopped away and a cottage dropped on the spot. I notice from it's GP bar that you generated a Great Person earlier (presumably a Great Scientist); what did you do with him? I'm guessing bulbed Philosophy? That's a common move and not a terrible one, but if you have a good Bureaucracy capital you generally want your first Great Scientist dropping an Academy in the capital instead. When you get a second GS (20-40 turns from now) you might want to use him to kick off a Golden Age. Can talk about how to use that when the situation comes up.

    Ollantaytambo needs a worker long since. It's working three unimproved tiles, and has a ton of choppable forests around it. The forge there is incredibly premature. Longer-term I'd probably build it for production, some mines on the hills and maybe daisy-chain farms 1N of Cuzco, 2N of Cuzco, 1E of Ollantaytambo so it can get a bit of food surplus where needed.

    Macchu Pichu's borders are going to pop in 13 turns; you'll have Calendar by then, so be aware of it and ready to grab that Incense with a plantation. It's working an unimproved tile, about to grow onto a second unimproved tile, doesn't have a lot of production right now nor does it need happiness; the Forge is premature. A cottage by the river and a pair of plainshill mines maybe. That random farm the worker is building is better than nothing, but the city doesn't need more food; it needs something useful to do with the food it has.

    Vilcas is on the right path. It's not a powerhouse city, just a spot that gives you some commerce and a bit of production while filling in your borders. Leaving one worker there is the right call, no urgency to faster improvements.

    Huamanga doesn't need a Forge yet. It's 6/6 happiness right now, but as soon as it grows one size it will become one of your 5 largest cities and get +3 happy cap from Representation (making it 7/9). And as that whip anger fades, that will become 6/9, so it can grow up to size-9 profitably. I'm not sure when the border pop occurred, but the Ivory should be a priority as soon as that happens. Not only is it +1 happiness for your whole empire, which is nice, but it also unlocks building Elephants - excellent units to mix in with Catapults when going for a Construction-tech war. It's got the terrace, so no huge priority on production after that; I'd shift off the plainshill and be working that nice floodplains cottage you built to grow on it instead. You've got one more floodplains there to the west, so this city is headed towards something like 4x floodplains cottage, plainscow, ivory camp, wet corn, and a pair of plainshill mines at size-9. That's a powerful site. It'll have a whopping 11 food surplus from the floodplains and corn, so an alternative in Caste System would be to run something like 5 specialists, rapidly generate Great Scientists to bulb your way towards Liberalism.

    I would prioritize Calendar ahead of Literature right now - the Banana tile is good, the Silk happiness would be useful, and in another dozen or so turns you'll have Incense to work. Monarchy for Wine happiness would be another useful one, although you might be able to pick up Priesthood in tech trade, conquer 3 cities from Ethiopia, extort Monarchy out of them in exchange for peace, then 10 turns later conquer their last city to save on the cost of researching it yourself. Longer-term you probably want to be thinking about how you want to win this game. The "classic" finishing move would be to work your way towards unlocking Cuirassiers, then just spam as many of them as possible out of your cities and conquer the whole continent with them. Upgrade to Cavalry if/when you hit Rifling. An alternative would be to play a more peaceful game and settle in for a space race win.

    Some good trade options to get small edges. Don't stress about giving the AI a "favorable" deal. You could pick up around 100 gold and a couple techs for shopping Mathematics around. Trading with Genghis Khan will piss off Zara Yaqob and Washington, while trading with Zara Yaqob will piss off Genghis, due to worst enemy status. But realistically you're so far ahead in power that I don't know if you really care about that. You can probably get Monarchy in 2 turns of tech trading, which would let you improve that wine and add 1 happiness to your cities. Justinian will swap Clam for Cow. Doesn't cost you anything to do, go ahead and do it.

    Military stack would be 1 turn closer to Aksum if it started 1W of Addis Ababa, rather than where it is now. That Chariot near Aksum could poke out and maybe get a look at his fourth city, which presumably is somewhere along that road southwest of Gondar.

    You could give a shot at war with Ethiopia. I wouldn't trust a stack that small on higher difficulty, but I suspect it works against a Noble AI. Pick off his capital, follow on to Gondar if you can, reinforce a bit and go for whichever of his other cities is bigger. Then give him a temporary peace treaty in exchange for all the tech and gold you can extort out of him (you can always go back and mop up his one remaining city later). If you've continued to reinforce militarily, maybe with some war elephants and more catapults, and either Genghis or Justinian still lacks Feudalism, I'd carry straight on to take them out as well. Maybe even with Feudalism, depending on what your relative army sizes are looking like. When you generate 30 combat XP you'll get a Great General; almost invariably you want to use your first Great General to create a Great Medic - stick them alone on the same tile as a 2-move unit (like a chariot), combine them, then promote that unit with Combat I -> Medic I -> Medic II -> Medic III. Then you just keep that unit with your main stack and don't attack with it unless it's an absolute sure-fire success; it's there to heal the other units.
     
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  3. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    He have no archer in his capital and also he doesn't have a lot of money to convert archers into longbowman

    Okay , I did hesitated to whip multiple times next time will go full military build. I have also never build such a big stack , normally I build around this much

    There was barbarian so I sent him there , you are right though just a single warrior is a risky

    For GS , everyone was recommending bulbing philosophy so I did that , didn't knew what should I have done with it

    Yeah calendar do provides useful happiness resource and will also make that coastal city better

    Tbh I never wanted to wipe ethopia out , just wanted it's capital and bronze , and later decimate him , that's how I usually play. Take 2-3 cities then peace and after 15-20 again attack

    Also since I love forges , I build them I am a bit baised towards forges

    Should I load the previous save if it's has this much problems
     
  4. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    On higher difficulty the AIs get massive discounts to their unit-upgrade costs so you pretty much assume as soon as they discover a tech all their units will be upgraded. An AI discovering Feudalism can sometimes bring a well-planned attack that arrives just one or two turns too late to a crashing halt. On Noble... they probably are slower with the upgrades.

    Bulbing Philosophy isn't a bad move. Depending on the game situation, sometimes it's the right move. Hard to give any exact rules on when to bulb Philo and when to get an Academy, but I'd say more often than not if you have a high-commerce capital and you are at or near tech lead in the game with an early Great Scientist, Academy. If it's a late great scientist, your capital is bad, or you're just generally behind on tech, bulb Philosophy. In this case I'd have gotten the Academy; some other players might disagree.

    It's usually better to go for near-total victories against AIs (taking at least all the really good cities they own), rather than half-measures. Sometimes you have no choice - you really need some land and can't wait, but simply don't have enough strength to force the war all the way to crushing victory, or you're early enough in the game your economy literally can't afford all their good cities. And once in a while there's a weird exception where a very limited war makes sense. But most of the time, think in terms of total war. And in this case (when you have an AI who has a decent chunk of land but is significantly behind you in tech and you can conquer at relatively low cost), you absolutely should go all-in.

    You don't need to reload the previous save. If you want to reload it and try to play the turn-set with a little more laser focus on the war prep and efficiency, you could get a save that was even further ahead and maybe the experience would be good for learning. But if you want to just keep moving on with this game and start turning your eye to the next game, that's fine; your advantage in this game is so huge that the game is effectively won and you just need to check off the boxes to wrap it up at this point.
     
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  5. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    redid the part once again and now in much better position , will attack this turn only , teched calender then asthetics skiping MC was great decision , traded asthetics for monarchy with zara , got lib in the eastern city now building mom for failgold
    Spoiler :
    Untitled17-1.png
     

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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
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  6. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Solid turnset.

    Hammers into Museum of Maussolos for failgold with an IND + Marble leader is a good move in the abstract. Keep in mind that in this particular game, you're very far ahead. I'd be pretty surprised if any AI built it any time in the next 30 turns and they quite possibly might not build it for another 50+ turns. This is one of the plays that is actually less risky to make when you have stronger AI opponents. If you want reliable fail-gold you're probably gonna end up dumping some hammers into the build in one city, deleting it from that city's build queue, and building it completely in a second city to get both the wonder and the failgold. Which... is probably still fine? Museum of Maussolos isn't a powerhouse wonder, but when you're IND, have Marble, and have hammers to spare it's a move you can make. You'd still be getting more than 1 gold per hammer, better than building wealth, and get the wonder thrown in as a free bonus.

    I notice Thracian is not actually working that bananas you improved, and Ollantaytambo is not working its sheep. Keep an eye on your city governors, sometimes the AI manager does silly things.

    It's okay for cities to simply "build wealth" or "build research" sometimes instead of getting libraries. I'd flag Vilcas as a nice example of this sort of thinking. Right now, empire wide, you have respectable multipliers to your research in your capital from library + academy, and a few other high-commerce cities from libraries. You can see that the difference in your slider - going from 0% research slider to 100% decreases the gold income by about 153 per turn, and boosts the beaker income by about 205 per turn. In other words, 1 gold is worth 1.33 beakers to you at the moment. If Vilcas puts 90 hammers into building wealth, that lets you run a higher beaker slider which results in about 120 additional beakers of research. If Vilcas puts 90 hammers into building a library... first it takes about dozen turns building the library. Then about half of its 12 commerce per turn (potentially becoming 15 when it grows a size) goes to paying upkeep, with the other half to making beakers. Let's call it 7 beakers per turn generated by the city, on average. The library adds a quarter of that, 1.75 beakers per turn. 68 turns after the library finishes - 80 turns after you started the library - it finally catches up in output with where you'd have been simply by building wealth instead. That's massively far in the future; there's a very real possibility you might win the game before that many more turns pass. And if you haven't actually won by then, you'll definitely have taken out 3+ AIs and just be mopping up the last one or two. Ollantaytambo might want to get a Barracks at some point, but it can also mostly be building wealth.

    That's a powerful stack you've got on Ethiopia's border. It'll have no trouble crushing him. I'm not sure how the timing worked out on it, but it would have been okay to go with slightly fewer chariots and axes if it let you hit sooner and lower the risk of running into longbows (war prep is ideally all-in, but also fast; every turn matters). What you've got though will certainly work. If you want to keep it rolling after Ethiopia, it'll probably be a little thin on catapults (you'll presumably lose one or two softening up defenders with collateral damage at each city). And since longbows might be a thing by the time you get to Justinian or Genghis Khan, mixing in a couple war elephants once you have ivory would give you a nutcracker for taking down the toughest top defender units. I don't think you need any more chariots or axes even for a 2-victim war.

    You've got a Great Scientist due to generate from Cuzco in 14 turns. Were I in your shoes, I'd probably be planning on kicking off a Golden Age in around 20-25 turns (ought to give you time to put some more hammers into the Museum you already started at Huamanga, cancel it, and build it completely with some chops in Ollantaytambo). If you're thinking the same, that'd make this a two-goal turnset. Militarily, conquer Ethiopia, reinforce with a handful of newly built units, conquer a second neighbor. At the same time, grow your cities up in size, let whip anger fade, and prepare to run a whole bunch of specialists from two or three key cities (probably Cuzco, Tiwanaku, and Huamanga) for a 12-turn Golden Age.
     
  7. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Yeah was planning to build it in ollant city , it got lots of forest and better production too meanwhile also settling a city up north from hummanga , looks ok site to me

    Ok will keep an eye , won't assume correct tiles are working , is there a locking feature like civ 6 so AI don't change that tile or priority assign feature

    Actually was planning Golden age with great artist from music maybe save the GS and GE from machu Picchu by running engineers for another golden age , what do you think. Will let the cities grow and fade unhappiness and also getting more luxuries.
     
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  8. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Oh yeah you'll have the music Great Artist, that's even better than burning a Great Scientist on it. Lost track of that.
     
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  9. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    So ethopia is dead , teched paper and got maps from others , with few more catapults , axes , elephants thinking for going after justian cuz Genghis keshik can wipe my catapults with ease and also has big military.

    One problem is my economy is quite bad , can't run slider for too long though since I am too ahead it is not a big problem , building partheon in East city , where should I build Heroic epic also what would be best use of great general
    I have also changed the capital tile , realised after the screenshot and will also build forge in machu pichu for engineers
    Spoiler :
    IMG_20201028_161406.png IMG_20201028_191135.png
     

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  10. SittinDown

    SittinDown King

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    Nice!

    You're making +102 coins at 0%. That's good. Your slider doesn't mean your economy is bad. A bad economy is losing money at 0%, or only making 50 beakers per turn at 100%. A better measure of economy is how many beakers you make at the break-even point, than how often you have to go down to 0%.

    ...sorry if my advice for the army build up earlier wasn't great - your replay was much better.

    • Check your cities, and don't work unimproved tiles. If you have the option to run a specialist.
    • Your econ is good enough that you can build units rather than wonders and buildings.
    • Both work, but I think I would have cottages in Thracian. I'd put a library in a double-gem city.
    I think you're going a little too heavy into the fail-gold here, since the game is within easy domination reach at this point. Just make a big army and take over the world. Maybe get Feudalism if you want to get vassals and speed up conquest / domination.

    This game is in the bag, and you should move up to Monarch difficulty.
     
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  11. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    I might not have built so many wonders, but you're IND, have Marble, and are pretty far ahead so it's fine I guess.

    You're presumably aiming to mop up the rest of your continent with Cuirassiers, which aren't far off. That means places with good production are getting Forges, Barracks, Stables. Places with limited production are shifting to building wealth.

    You'll be running a Golden Age soon. High-food cities will be running a bunch of specialists - Tiwanaku, Huamanga, Cuzco. Cuzco can probably manage 4 specialists, plus the 2 free scientists it'll have from finishing The Great Library (probably wasn't worth it at this point, although I haven't carefully run the numbers to check). Tiwanaku can manage about 5. Huamanga can manage about six - I'd build National Epic here rather than Parthenon; 250 hammers for +100% GPP in a single city will be more useful than 400 hammers for +50% GPP in all three cities. Ideally they'd all be able to benefit from Pacifism, which would mean getting a State Religion shared by all three. A Hindu monastery in Cuzco and a single Hindu Missionary would suffice.

    Soon as Museum of Maussolos finishes start a Golden Age. Golden Ages give anarchy-free civic and religion swaps (so go ahead and shift into Caste System, Pacifism, and Hindu immediately). All this lines up to give you 54 GPP per turn in Cuzco, 45 in Tiwanaku, and 72 in Huamanga during the golden age. Which means you'll generate about four Great People from that Golden Age. Maybe aim to generate a Great Scientist out of Cuzco (for a Liberalism bulb) and Great Merchants out of the other cities for trade missions. Honestly you probably would have been better off cutting some corners earlier, gone without things like Museum of Maussolos in exchange for just getting the Golden Age started sooner. But at this point, with a half-dozen turns until it finishes and nobody else threatening to beat you to Liberalism, not worth giving up the extra 4 turns of Golden Age. One Great Scientist bulb into Education, one bulb into Liberalism, a bunch of Trade Missions for gold to run 100% research for a bit while wrapping up your tech.

    Great Merchant trade mission yield scales with how much a trade route to your capital from that city would be worth (500 + 200 x commerce), so generally you just look for a reasonably high-population AI city you can reach. You can use shift-queued orders to poke around and see how much a mission would be worth before actually moving, and pick a good one you can reach fairly quickly.
     
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  12. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Ok I sort of get the idea when economy is bad

    Don't be sorry your advices were great and helped me quite a bit.

    Yeah I'm so ahead that it's becoming boring to continue
     
  13. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Actually I am gonna attack justian now , since I have lot of forces with 3-4 catapults and 3-4 axes plus some elephants I could easily destroy justian too I think before they become obselute so may delay golden age
     
  14. Shikhar Agrawal

    Shikhar Agrawal Chieftain

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    Played roughly 20-30 turns more and the gap was so big it felt pointless to play further.
    Also I would like thanks everyone for helping me and giving me useful insights and tips especially @SittinDown and @coanda.
     
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  15. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Yeah, the game is pretty much in the bag. You picked up good habits quickly; if you decide you want to run another shadow game at some point in the future, you could jump straight to Emperor for a second game.
     
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