[BTS] Noble Shadow game - Huyana Capac

[SittinDown]

Justin has metal casting - that's nice. Less reason to research it yourself. AI's like to tech the bottom part of the tech tree.... they'll go for Monarchy, Iron Working, and Metal Casting, and Machinery before other things. Once someone else has Metal Casting as well, there's a good chance you can trade for it.

Also, if you get short on cash, look for cities to put hammers into wonders that you have the bonus resource for.

You can do this with oracle - if you intentionally delay building oracle for a couple of turns to get civil service in, have some other city put hammers into Oracle while you wait. [You have to fiddle around in the production queue, to do it]. It'll turn those hammers into gold quite efficiently.

Similar with any stone wonders that crop up. Given your traits, it's probably a good idea to have something like the cow/gold city just put hammers into fail gold.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

Overall:
Looking decent. Some small things to mention, and one big one.

Settling the gems now is a mistake.

• Keep playing it, but note to yourself how painful it is to get that city going in that situation, so you learn why it's not a good choice. It's going to soak up a LOT of worker turns to get that city going.
  
• [Even if an AI would grab it, it would be very easy for you to capture it]
  
• The cow/gold should be settled before the gems spot. It's productive with much less worker activity, and will help you connect the two halves of your empire.
  • Also - you can chop jungles outside of your cultural borders, so you can clear out the jungle ahead of time, especially on that banana and one of the gems.
  • At least you can trade for iron working now - to chop the jungles.

Other cities:

• Glad to see those cottages going up near the capital.
  
• You are working a 2 hammer unimproved plains hill in Tiwanaku. That is a crime. That is a terrible tile, even if you want to build a library. The worker that Cuzco is building should go to Tiwanaku, and focus solely on improving the flood plains in that city.
• Ollan - that city looks good. Just keep cycling it from 4 -> 2 population. After the next chariot, look to build stronger units there. Chariots are not good to whip, because they are only 30 hammers.
• Cori - looking good. Whip the terrace as soon as you can, so you can connect the bronze. Worker up there should farm all those green tiles. It'll have nice food, and ok hammers thanks to the marble and bronze and cow.
• Humanga - Did that city just finish a terrace? If so, great! If not, stop building the Quecha, and work on the Terrace. Since you have a chariot there, the Q can wait. After the pasture is done, probably cottage the flood plains. Don't have that worker leave the city radius until then. That city is going to grow fast. Let it get up to size 4 now.

Next Cities:

• Settle that cow / gold. I'd go 1 SW of the cow at this point. If you road 1E of cow, the cow, and then 2 W of cow, and 3 W of cow, you'll connect the two halves of your growing empire with 9 worker turns. Machu Piccu's worker can do that. That city probably doesn't need a terrace any time soon, but you can slow-build it.
• After that, there aren't more must-settle spots. So I think that means it's time for conquest.

Techs:

• Civil Service -> You have a nice beuro cap here. It's expensive, but very powerful. Spreading irrigation is situational, but nice. If you can tech this before you build oracle, you can oracle education, which is silly-good.
  
• Hunting -> No need, unless you want to go for horse archers.
  
• Mediation -> Needed for philosophy.
  
• Priesthood -> Cheap and decent for Oracle, with the marble. Probably too good to pass up here, but in most games it's not a great move.
  
• Poly -> No need.
  
• Construction -> Catapults + bronze will let you conquer anyone for a good long while. You have a lot of land too, so chances are you'll have iron nearby.
• Metal Casting -> Cheap forges are great with industrial leaders. They make whips stronger. They lead towards Machinery, and Maces are a very strong unit.
  
• Aesthetics -> Not bad. It's good trade bait, but these rivals don't have much to give you in return, so meh. Great Library is a decent wonder when you have marble and industrial.
• Horse Back -> Horse Archers are great for conquest. Still viable, and you really should at some point go back 30 turns and try it out sometime. It's very strong.
  
• Iron Working -> Decent tech. Trade for it.

Given the current tech situation, and that nobody has priesthood yet, I'd probably tech Mediation, then Priesthood, start the oracle somewhere, then tech civil service, and finish the oracle once civil service is in. This wouldn't work on higher difficulty levels, but sometimes you just gotta take advantage of what they give you.


Trades:

• Trade for Iron working. See what you can get. Consider selling off writing to everyone for the cash. Note how much more tech you have than them. They'll never catch up, so giving away a few techs only helps you tech even faster.
  
• Don't bother with hunting or fishing. You can maybe get those in a forced peace deal later, or grab them quick later if you need it.

Yeah , I didn't wanted to settle now , that's why my chariot was just chilling there doing nothing but it's health got 0.2 , I took it. That's why I am building two workers for now and also building farms too.

I forgot to look , tiwanku is growing so rapidly that I sometimes forgot

There are no stronger units to build for now

That must have been a mis click , I don't even need a warrior I already have a chariot and a warrior. The screen moves so fast that this has happens many times

Agreed , will do it in 5-10 turns

Ok will go for Oracle and then Civil services

Yes , gold will help quite a bit

 

[SittinDown]

I took it.

Ah - I misread when you explained that earlier. 1 more settler for the cow/gold, and you'll have filled out the good land for a while.

Gotcha on the there are no better units - 1 more chariot is good to slow-build there. After that wealth / fail gold is probably better. I'd like to see what's going on to the NW, over by that Wine / Gold.

Once you connect the bronze, 1-2 axes can be helpful, but don't go crazy with them. Build your army right before you're ready to attack. It's usually a lot better to whip a bunch of units all at once as soon as you unlock something new.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

Ah - I misread when you explained that earlier. 1 more settler for the cow/gold, and you'll have filled out the good land for a while.

Gotcha on the there are no better units - 1 more chariot is good to slow-build there. After that wealth / fail gold is probably better. I'd like to see what's going on to the NW, over by that Wine / Gold.

Once you connect the bronze, 1-2 axes can be helpful, but don't go crazy with them. Build your army right before you're ready to attack. It's usually a lot better to whip a bunch of units all at once as soon as you unlock something new.

Yeah I got plenty of cities and way ahead of others

Me too that's why I am scouting there with two units , also need to scout south

Ok I won't

 

[coanda]

I disagree about gems city being a mistake, simply because it's so damn cheap.

It was a flatland 0-culture city still (I hope?) defended mostly by warriors and maybe an archer; the chariots ought to have been able to win pretty much without losses, maybe one dead chariot. If you were going to lose multiple chariots conquering it, the right move was to delay. But assuming minimal losses, since you're making the chariots anyways the ones who live are just gaining experience and getting stronger; it's not a big sacrifice to use them. Given distance and # of cities, it's probably about 6 gold per turn additional upkeep for your empire. But even with literally zero improvements, it gets 3 commerce (1 city tile, 2 trade routes from the river network connection) and 3 hammers (1 city tile, 2 from working one of the 1F2H tiles) which makes it gold-neutral.

It's very slightly better than a wash - not contributing much at all, but not hurting - until you find a chance to shake 9 worker turns loose for mining one of those gems, at which point it becomes a significant positive. If you were settling the site yourself, you'd have wanted to delay taking it. Or if the chariots weren't there to be used. Or if it had been heavily defended. But having it now without gems removes the uncertainty about what conquering it in the future might cost, and it's not like you're investing a lot into it.

 

[SittinDown]

I disagree about gems city being a mistake, simply because it's so damn cheap.

Agreed. I had the mistaken idea that he settled that city over settling the cow / gold first. Since he conquered it, I retract saying that was a mistake.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

I disagree about gems city being a mistake, simply because it's so damn cheap.

It was a flatland 0-culture city still (I hope?) defended mostly by warriors and maybe an archer; the chariots ought to have been able to win pretty much without losses, maybe one dead chariot. If you were going to lose multiple chariots conquering it, the right move was to delay. But assuming minimal losses, since you're making the chariots anyways the ones who live are just gaining experience and getting stronger; it's not a big sacrifice to use them. Given distance and # of cities, it's probably about 6 gold per turn additional upkeep for your empire. But even with literally zero improvements, it gets 3 commerce (1 city tile, 2 trade routes from the river network connection) and 3 hammers (1 city tile, 2 from working one of the 1F2H tiles) which makes it gold-neutral.

It's very slightly better than a wash - not contributing much at all, but not hurting - until you find a chance to shake 9 worker turns loose for mining one of those gems, at which point it becomes a significant positive. If you were settling the site yourself, you'd have wanted to delay taking it. Or if the chariots weren't there to be used. Or if it had been heavily defended. But having it now without gems removes the uncertainty about what conquering it in the future might cost, and it's not like you're investing a lot into it.

There were no losses and I building 2 more workers to ease it. The city had one warrior with 0.2 health , so I took it. I invest zero into it , with just one chariot and not a single loss in point. It was so cheap to conquer it

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

gave writing to everyone , got hunting and sailing too without asking , give genghis mysthism too , oracle was build already i checked the wonder so turn didnt got wasted , had to self tech IW , will also need to self tech MC , will whip terrac next turn also ethopia about to settle its 3 city , there are two archers escorting a settler and he become cautios after i didnt adopt conf

Spoiler :

 

[SittinDown]

Overall:
Cool. Shaping up. Curious why weren't you able to trade for Iron Working? You can see why they won't trade in the diplo screen - it'll say something like "We don't want to start trading away this yet", which usually is a code word for "I'm the only one with this tech", or "I want to build a wonder this unlocks", or it'll say something like "We just don't like you enough", which means you need to get to Pleased with them. Metal Casting - yea, you'd have to wait a bit before an AI would trade that. If you got into Confucianism with Ethopia he'd probably trade you more stuff. Can also get + diplo by gifting resources to someone that you don't need - like a duplicate grain or something for a little while. You can cancel the gift later but still retain some of the diplo bonus. Opening borders also helps over time.


There's still nice land around - gold / sheep / wine / iron.

• Who built oracle? What other wonders have been built? Orcale is a useless capture target - but other wonders are great to capture [pyramids / great light house].

• Where is Mongolia? They are plotting. Probably not a threat to you. But keep an eye on that fist. It's important

• What is defending the Ethiopian capital? Your power score is 1.4 x his, so his army must be garbage.
• Diplomatically - you *could* switch into Confucianism, and make Ethiopia your friend, and instead take out Charlemagne.

I would not put espionage points on Mongolia. He's growing fast, but he has terrible tech. Go to your diplomacy screen, and play around with the controls in there until your green (+EP) points are going towards the Byzantines. They looks like your main long-term rival.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

Overall:
Cool. Shaping up. Curious why weren't you able to trade for Iron Working? You can see why they won't trade in the diplo screen - it'll say something like "We don't want to start trading away this yet", which usually is a code word for "I'm the only one with this tech", or "I want to build a wonder this unlocks", or it'll say something like "We just don't like you enough", which means you need to get to Pleased with them. Metal Casting - yea, you'd have to wait a bit before an AI would trade that. If you got into Confucianism with Ethopia he'd probably trade you more stuff. Can also get + diplo by gifting resources to someone that you don't need - like a duplicate grain or something for a little while. You can cancel the gift later but still retain some of the diplo bonus. Opening borders also helps over time.


There's still nice land around - gold / sheep / wine / iron.

• Who built oracle? What other wonders have been built? Orcale is a useless capture target - but other wonders are great to capture [pyramids / great light house].

• Where is Mongolia? They are plotting. Probably not a threat to you. But keep an eye on that fist. It's important

• What is defending the Ethiopian capital? Your power score is 1.4 x his, so his army must be garbage.
• Diplomatically - you *could* switch into Confucianism, and make Ethiopia your friend, and instead take out Charlemagne.

I would not put espionage points on Mongolia. He's growing fast, but he has terrible tech. Go to your diplomacy screen, and play around with the controls in there until your green (+EP) points are going towards the Byzantines. They looks like your main long-term rival.

Everyone wanted 60 gold and so I didn't trade IW.

Yeah that site looked good to me as well , lot of forest too , 2N wine looks best to me what do you think

I dont know and I have already switched spy points to ethopia , will change it to Justine , he also build the Oracle

Yeah his army is garbage just two archer defending capital

Could do that , he is also very weak , he doesn't even have Pottery

I think mongol will attack America , he is at odds with him

 

[SittinDown]

More I look at it more I think it's better to attack now than settle another far-away city. 2 N of wine is another slow starter with food in the 2nd ring. Maybe later something with the horse/gold along that green river. Later can fill in the sheep / wine spot.

I would have traded 60 gold + writing for Iron working. Sure, you lose 60 gold, but you gain a few hundred beakers, and you can focus on something else. You'd might have civil service now if you hadn't self-teched. Sailing is ok for the trade routes. Trading for hunting is not good. It's a 1-turn tech that you're not doing anything with.

Maybe have some cities build wealth while you finish up civil service. Switch to beuro.

Chariots will have poor odds against archers in a 60% defense city. You'd probably need 3:1 odds there at least. Did you get construction yet? Taking axes and catapults will have much better odds. 2 catapults, 2 axes, and a couple of chariots, and you might only lose one catapult.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

More I look at it more I think it's better to attack now than settle another far-away city. 2 N of wine is another slow starter with food in the 2nd ring. Maybe later something with the horse/gold along that green river. Later can fill in the sheep / wine spot.

I would have traded 60 gold + writing for Iron working. Sure, you lose 60 gold, but you gain a few hundred beakers, and you can focus on something else. You'd might have civil service now if you hadn't self-teched. Sailing is ok for the trade routes. Trading for hunting is not good. It's a 1-turn tech that you're not doing anything with.

Maybe have some cities build wealth while you finish up civil service. Switch to beuro.

Chariots will have poor odds against archers in a 60% defense city. You'd probably need 3:1 odds there at least. Did you get construction yet? Taking axes and catapults will have much better odds. 2 catapults, 2 axes, and a couple of chariots, and you might only lose one catapult.

I am not going to settle now , it will be for later when with all these workers with pretty much zero work

I didn't asked for hunting , they gave it to me for writing with gold , it is better to get a tech when you are getting it for free

Will do that , I also have nothing imp to build

I don't have it yet , was planning on getting it after civil service

 

[SittinDown]

it is better to get a tech when you are getting it for free

That's a decent general rule. But consider this. There a couple of things to take a "bad" trade.

• Uneven trades provide a diplomacy boost.
  • Getting an AI to pleased opens better trades.
• Hunting gives you spears.
  • Spears + Axes means you can't build Quechas anymore, which are really cheap garrison units, and with heredity rule provide the cheapest sources of Happiness in the game.
• "We fear you are becoming too advanced."
  • You can only trade so many techs to an AI before they won't trade anything anymore. That cap varies by difficultly level. It's not a problem on Noble, but is a problem at higher levels, so you should pick your techs wisely. It also varies a LOT by the AI.

I don't have it yet , was planning on getting it after civil service

Excellent. Catapults are nice to whip after you get about 10-18 hammers into them for 2 population. They have nice overflow. And they're even nicer to whip once you have a forge in place. Axes are famously good to whip in low-hammer cities - they get maximum overflow with only 4 hammers invested, so it makes it easy to build 2 axes in 3 turns for the cost of 2 population.

 

[SittinDown]

Lain is a deity player, and I have been watching his videos a lot lately.

One thing I saw him doing that I didn't used to do, was intentionally not trading for techs he didn't need, and trying to do other things. He's a big fan of getting the AI to switch civics, which they're often happy to do for the cost of a tech - it messes with the AI by giving them anarchy or getting them away from a civic that is military focused to make them less dangerous.

It's usually done as a secondary part of the deal. So, he'll trade 1 big tech for 1 medium tech he needs, + a civic switch.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

Lain is a deity player, and I have been watching his videos a lot lately.

One thing I saw him doing that I didn't used to do, was intentionally not trading for techs he didn't need, and trying to do other things. He's a big fan of getting the AI to switch civics, which they're often happy to do for the cost of a tech - it messes with the AI by giving them anarchy or getting them away from a civic that is military focused to make them less dangerous.

It's usually done as a secondary part of the deal. So, he'll trade 1 big tech for 1 medium tech he needs, + a civic switch.

Will check him up , didn't thought people would post on a 13 year old game

 

[SittinDown]

Lain is still actively posting videos. Lain Civ 4 Deity on youtube.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

Got CS , cons in 1 turn , building weath in most cities since have not much to build and plus I needed both CS and cons asap. Tiwanku is really a great city , I am having trouble managing it up. Hummanga worker got mistakenly put outside border , will come back next turn , got another city also got bronze and will get iron soon too , hummanga will also be connected soon , gave HRE writing for sailing. Will whip a catapult in tiwanku next turn.

Spoiler :

 

[SittinDown]

Metal Casting and whipping a forge in Tiwinaku will help with happiness.

You can really win any way you want from here. See how you do playing a few turns.

Keep improving more cottages in the capital, and keep some workers near Machu - after power-tiles, green river tiles are your next thing to improve.

You have a lot of forests, so you can chop an army here or whip if you want. As soon as Construction is in, start building catapults in a bunch of cities. A good 4-5 catapults, plus same number of axes + whatever chariots you have around should finish off your first rival easily if you do it quickly.

 

[Shikhar Agrawal]

going to war next turn to straight for capital , is the stack okay and am i bit late , I am researching asthestics for GL , also building forges since i am IND and needed happiness

Spoiler :

 

[nebux]

why you build forges before war? units are the way to go.
also if you're going to war next turn, your army should be w of addis ababa. from where are you now you're 6 turns way from their capital. Aksum is on a small river you need to be on the SE tile of Aksum for attack so you don't get the modifier attack over a river.
iron not hooked, roads and whip, whip, whip