Nobles' Club 186 - Cyrus of Persia

[Noble Zarkon]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Cyrus of the Persians, whom we last played in NC 150 which was also the last time we played the Persians. The Persians start with Agriculture and Hunting, so no early worker stealing!

• Traits: Cyrus is Charismatic and Imperialistic. This is a strong combination for warmongers, CHA gives faster promotions and IMP gives faster Great Generals. CHA also improves happiness and IMP boosts hammers with 50% when building settlers.
  
  
• The UB: The Apothecary, a Grocer that gives +2.
  
  
  
  
• The UU: The Immortal, a Chariot that gets defensive bonuses and +50% versus archers. This is considered one of the strongest units for early rushes.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, tropical. Moved a resource closer to one AI, swapped a couple of resources near our start location

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 149 Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[dutchfire]

Forests. Forests everywhere. SIP looks best, pray for horse 1W.
For a Immortal rush, do you usually get a second city (or even a third?) before attacking?

 

[unas876]

If theres horses in the BFC and a nice target close then I wouldn't. These guys are insane against archers, so if you worker steal pretty early and smash any potential copper mines, what can the AI really do? Stack archers, and you can kill them pretty easily.
Maybe during the rush there will be time for a settler, workers should be stolen mostly.
That would be my guess, anyway, and thats how I'm going to try this as soon as I finish my other game. It might change though if you meet a protective character or like Brennus/Boudicca who will have early walls. In such a case it might just be better to attack in one fell swoop.

 

[blunderwonder]

Played up till about 1AD, fun map so far, the tech rate in my game is pretty insane. I hit a few snags early, trying to chop a wonder, and then losing it turn before it was finished, but all in all looks like I should have no problem winning lib if i can keep getting failgold and decent trades.

 

[Xpl]

Emperor

Spoiler :

Played to t50, since I typically like to make sure my early game is well optimised.

Scout to plains hill, SIP.
Tech order: Fishing - Mining - BW - AH - Wheel
(of course there is capital horses on NC, hehe)

Scout finds dry corn, stone, marble, copper after BW which are exciting. Even more stone and whales (lol) too!

Build order: Worker - WB - WB - Warrior - 2pop whip settler.
1st worker built camp on deer, farm the plains tile 1W of cap, moved to forest 1SW of cap and waited 1 turn while BW finished, chopped 2nd WB, then converted to slavery while moving worker to next forest 1S.
Grew to 4 on a warrior that had a chop into it, then 2pop whipped a settler combined with overflow. Imperialistic is great. Settled 1NW of stone and farmed 1W of silk so I at least have 1 food tile to work without border pop.

My scout died to a lion while in grassland, and my second warrior died to a barb warrior. Delayed finding more AI, as I met Catherine and Lincoln much later unfortunately. Would have liked to have killed enough animals and maybe a lucky warrior from a fortified scout on a jungle hill to get a woods 2 unit asap.

Mysticism into Masonry for the stone quarry so Pasargadae has a production tile at 2 while it 1 pop whips Immortals until it bleeds. Just queueing Immortals until I can no longer kill people inbetween settlers to get the better food cities filled up, with Pacal first, then probably Lincoln depending on distance.

dotmap

Spoiler :

cap

Spoiler :

 

[Tonny]

I will definately try this one!
My first NC game ever.

 

[Lain]

Based on what I see from the screenshot I wouldn't go AH first here. Even if there are horses, the worker will be idle for like 15 turns after that.

I will probably settle on the plains hill (should have fresh water) and go settler first to grab the spot the scout is standing on right now. Make use of IMP. Unless there is something nicer in the fog to the west.

Tech something like Fishing (to work commerce and speed up BW) - Mining - BW

Anyway, for Fractal. This map is next on my list of LPs

 

[hankinsohl]

Looks like a very tough start - 2 seafood and deer for food without fishing as starting tech, land OK for cottaging though. Fractal could mean AI's in other landmasses. Should be a challenging game.

 

[Pangaea]

Kind of a tricky start. I prefer to decide on what to do when actually opening the save and seeing what's around after a couple of turns. But upon what we see currently from the starting location, think I'd build a worker first while teching Fishing. Let him improve the deer, and after Fishing tech Mining+BW. Lots of forests, so that will at least give him something to do. If there is nothing from tiles revealed upon settling (looks like forests everywhere), he can at least farm the plains for the time being. Better than completely idle turns. Good chance of a resource on that tile I reckon. Hopefully horse or copper.

 

[Xpl]

Early game thoughts.

Spoiler :

Played out the next 50 turns and looking for guidance on attacking Pacal. For starters his capital is on a hill across a river, which is unfortunate, however the river can be crossed on the turn of DoW. Even with Holkans vs Immortals, I understand the AI prioritises archers during peacetime. I've had some luck whipping 8-10 immortals as quickly as possible and slamming them into 2 cities with not too many losses to block peace treaty. My first try ended in a reload as I was too slow to mobilise, or perhaps over estimating how many immortals to build and ran into the capital defended by 3 archers and Holkan around T65. Timing aside, is it even worth to take more than Pacal's capital? Seems mostly like jungle, with the only other spot worthwhile to be near the horses.

Also on a side note, is alphabet generally better to research next at emperor, even with only 2-3 AIs met? Generally felt after playing to around T85 just going straight to construction would have been better.

 

[monopole magnet]

Noble, 4,000 BC, no huts/events

Spoiler :

Hmm, Deer, Crabs and Whales. SIP as I don't see anything enticing me to move. Scout moves S-SW onto the Hills and will hopefully reveal some interesting terrain. No thoughts as to wonders as I don't see any Stone or such yet. Animal Husbandry must be made a priority because of the potential for an Imm rush. On the other hand, Imm rushing through Forest...? We shall see...

 

[monopole magnet]

Noble, 1,200 BC, no huts/events

Spoiler :

Met Pacal, who died to an Immortal rush. I got a GG out of it. Also met Sitting Bull, who is somewhere to the east, and Cathy through a boat. I started researching Horseback Riding even though I had no need for it - thought it was a requirement for Imms. Oops! Now trying to lay down some cottages to recover economy. I want to take out Bull ASAP, but not sure his Dog Soldiers are much fun to fight with Imms. Will have to scout his towns to see what's up. Empire building meanwhile.

There is a band of Desert to the southeast which will form a natural Empire boundary. Also Jungle to the south.

 

[SittinDown]

Monarch. Played to T58.

Spoiler :

SIP.
Tech Order: Fishing -> Mining -> AH -> BW -> Wheel -> Writing
Build Order: Worker -> Work Boat -> Warrior -> Barracks -> Work Boat -> Immortal x6 -> Settler

Whipped the settler capital from 6 -> 4 (missed the 3 pop whip because of hammer overflow from chopping immortal), and founded Pasagarde near the Corn.

Chop / whipped out an immortal rush - and took out the Mayans on T58. Caught his capital with only 2 archers and only lost 1 unit to eliminate him.

Not sure how I want to proceed. Wide band of jungle / desert means anything I take further away will cost a ton of maintenance. May take the immortals down South and hope I find someone without Protective or Metals, and see if I can take out another civ. (India maybe?).

Otherwise, just planning on filling in the land. Plenty of good food, commerce, and diverse calendar resources. With Stone and Marble in the area too, I'll probably Oracle.

 

[SittinDown]

@Xpl Saw your save...

Spoiler :

Surprised that you placed Pasa where you did - it doesn't have the corn in the first ring.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Staring at the image reminds me of how much I hate coastal starts. But at least we're financial.

I don't even know what to do if we don't get any extra food. Worker ---> Deer? But deer sucks, so build half a warrior and go fishing and then finish warrior ---> Worker? Hunting at all? Coast starts seem to go so slow if the worker does a long time to crank out and chances are they don't get to do much with this start unless i zip BW

 

[hankinsohl]

Emperor, NH/NE, Normal - Early game thoughts:

Spoiler :

SIP.

Given the start, I think it's best to research fishing while temp-building a warrior. Once fishing is in, move citizen onto the 3H hill and switch production to workboat.

If you build worker first, he can upgrade the deer, but then will have nothing to do for many turns. Warrior (switch to WB) - WB - Finish Warrior - WB - Worker - Settler - Worker is what I did.

2nd city settles adjacent to corn, on the coast, with BFC overlapping capital so that it can help develop cottages.

Research is: Fishing, Mining, BW (switch to Slavery as soon as Settler is finished), AH, Wheel, Writing, Alphabet.

As soon as AH finishes, start cranking out Immortals but don't go too crazy on them. 8-10 is all you'll need to take out Pacal - don't let him settle the bronze.

Use workers to develop deer, chop grassland tiles near capital, connect capital to 2nd city with roads, and road south to Pacal for trade/quicker warfare.

I wiped Pacal off the map keeping his capital and the first city he settled near the floodplains.

From here, I stopped attacking and expanding as the far-spread cities were very expensive. I used workers to cottage the capital and am now pursing a more-less traditional game.

The land is really terrible this game and is spread out. I'll go with 6 pretty crappy cities I guess and try to push for cuirassiers.

 

[hankinsohl]

Staring at the image reminds me of how much I hate coastal starts. But at least we're financial.

From OP: Cyrus is Charismatic and Imperialistic

 

[Archon_Wing]

Oh yea I forgot this is Cyrus, lol. Well that is not good then.

 

[learner gamer]

Emperor / normal to 1680BC (T58):

Spoiler :

Went worker first until fishing was teched, then switched to 3H tile to build WB. Then resumed worker whilst working WB. Worker still popped a turn earlier than needed to camp deer and then be available for chopping on completion of mining – BW (post fishing), but, oh well.

Early scouting (before my scout met its demise to a panther at circa 20% odds) revealed that:

(a) the land in the immediate vicinity is mediocre. Settling for the stone for instance puts food in the second ring (and vice versa)…and we’re not creative; and

(b) Pacal looks to have started in a much better location that Cyrus….but has access to the resource-less Holkan, which can skewer Cyrus’ Immortals.

The solution? Place EP on Pacal and see what he techs. Thankfully Pacal teched the religious path instead of BW needed to access his UU. As a result, I let the capital grow to happy cap, teched AH after BW and then chopped barracks-less immortals (with the aid of a second built worker). At T58 Pacal is history and it’s likely time for back-settling and seeing what wonders can be built with stone and marble. Then again, with everyone met, it looks like we’re on a Pangaea of sorts…and horse based units can do a lot of damage on these types of maps.

@hankinsohl:

Spoiler :

Sounds like your game is going really well. Whether Pacal settles the bronze though doesn’t matter because the Holkan is a resource-less unit. Pacal only needs to tech BW to be able to build it. Fortunately of course Pacal’s not a unit spammer – but even just one or two of his UU can materially change the number of units (eg. immortals) needed to take him down.

 

[Xpl]

@SittinDown.

Spoiler :

I think I recall at the time I thought the grassland river farm and sugar were enough to grow to 2, since I wanted to whip 1 pop whip 2-3 immortals from Pasa, along with wanting to use the stone for mids and early game production. As it turns out, the growth in fact was inefficient for whipping immortals, and I quickly realised the quarry was unused for 40 turns. To top it off, I didn't even get the pyramids since I couldn't find time between immortals and getting capital library online and scientists for academy. So yes, no idea why I didn't settle to the corn, but the city will still be good later.

Spoiler :

although it misses the Iron on the coast too! Even more reason to have settled properly.

Summary to T100:

Spoiler :

Got 6-8 immortals, took a stray worker by Chichen Itza, slammed into Mutal against 3 archers and a chariot losing 3 immortals. Built more immortals to a total of 15 built, defended Mutal with a warrior and an immortal while the rest captured Chichen Itza as the immortal that took the worker flanked any archer from the third city coming to reinforce. Obtained a medic II unit thanks to Charismatic traic, have a super medic with leadership and withdrawl bonus.

Spoiler :

With a warrior in Mutal, scouted towards Lakamha and sighted a Holkan. Made peace with Pacal and sent the surviving immortals in pairs to scout the fog and explore the other AIs lands. Catherine and Sitting Bull's capitals are highly desirable. No OB with Gandhi as he appears to be garnering his typical dislike. Cottages in the capital and roads connected to captured cities with forests chopped to speed up granaries, libraries and future settlers. Lakahma's culture flipped Mutal's corn tile, so planning a construction push after currency.

In hindsight my rush was a bit too late. Pacal had settled 3 cities and built holkans swiftly. However, it does give me time for him to improve the jungle in his last 2 cities and for me to recover the economy to maintain my lead. I had actually reloaded after an even slower rush as I lost 10 immortals slamming into Mutal against 3 archers and a holkan. It seems all the other emperor players so far have managed to kill off Pacal by T60 before holkans sprung up. Will have to work on my rush timings more in the future.

I had also amusingly managed to demand IW successfully from Pacal after failing to trade it for alpha with Lincoln and Catherine.

GS popped T92 and the mids were built T94 resulting in 310 hammers convereted to fail gold. At least it speeds up currency. Also begged archery off Gandhi in the meantime.

Future plans are finish Pacal with catapults, consider extending with immortals further to Catherine based on the situtation, or wait until knights. Afterwards into standard civil service. Going to trade for calandar later and build MoM, confident I can beat the AI since I have what seems the only marble aside from Lincoln.

Is the capital also the best candidate for Moai?

@learner gamer

Spoiler :

Interesting how Pacal founded a religion and settled his second city away from you. Plans to settle the horses yourself on the hill?
After looking at your save, I think your strategy to delay second settler is better than settling forward in comparison.