Nobles' Club CXII: Ragnar of the Vikings

[Nicol.Bolas]

I will commence this on monarch, since I never lose on prince.

And this whole Ragnar sounds archipelagoic, which isn't AI strongpoint.

This time I will do the WB-thingy... since it's my first monarch attempt (apart from GOTM)
The lost BOTM was an archipelago on monarch , and I got a time loss so let's see if I can do better

but maybe next time provide monarch save? it's sort of transition level...

 

[Quornslice]

@Quornslice:

If I may be frank, it doesn't look so well. If you can deal with some criticism look below, if not.. move on.

Spoiler :

Imho you've made three big mistakes:

A. You don't have mysticism yet!! The first building in new city (not capital) should always be a monument. You could delay or not build a monument but then you'd need a specific reason. Usually this will be when the best tiles are already in the first culture border.

B. It's late to start building the great lighthouse at t100. It should come much earlier. For example in my game I finished it at T57.

C. Your city priority is a bit off. You should be looking for cities that are close and can immediatly pay off. This would look better: (Note that the great lighthouse is already finished)

Spoiler :

1: The most easy city to found as it doesn't need a monument for a while. Two of the food resources are within the capitals second cultural border pop. The capital can make the workboat. Not the most awesome city ever but at size two it can making workers or settlers working the clam+corn.

2: Unknown to me at this point that there is a fish resource but even without it, it's a nice spot for the next city. It has a free hammer from settling on a plains hill. It can work the clams from the start and grow on financial coast tiles (later cottages).
More importantly that spot is on "another" landmass and it gives extra trade route commerce!
(minor note that it can work the grassland 2S of the capital, the first cottage should go there)

3: In my game I settled it at the rice. But this mostly has to do with deity and Charly being imperialistic so let's ignore that. Let's stick with the idea that cities have to pay off as soon as possible. I's debatable but I'd say settle that toundra city up north. You could work the plain hill from the capital to build a monument. Most important agrument is the increased trade routes from "another" landmass. I'd suggest you leave that plain forrest 2N of the capital to chop the monument for the toundra city.

4: You should be going Aesthetics/Lit and it's time to get that marble. Monument first!

5: Rice city. Monument first! Work a plains forrest for 2 hammers and chop another forrest so it's done quickly.


Some minor criticism:
- Capital is building an important wonder. Switch the coastal tile to plains forrest for 2 hammers. It shaves two turns of the wonder.
- Don't build harbors untill much later. It costs too much hammers early on for little revenue.
- You didn't switch to slavery. When you tech it, get it. Or better, wait till your first settler comes out so you don't delay it by one turn.
- The sheep in the capital should be mined imho untill much later in the game. You need to build GL, TGL, galleys, workboats, etc.. there's plenty of food and commerce but lacking hammers.
- Don't work plains in Uppsala, switch them both to coastal tiles.
- Same for Haithabu. Don't work cottaged plains! It doesn't have enough food to support cottages. Switch it to coastal tiles. Let your workers chop or pre-chop those forrests instead of building cottages on plains.
- Random tip on getting that great lighthouse up quickly. Delay teching AH. Go Aggri, mining, bw, sailing

Spoiler on the great lighthouse!

Spoiler :

Sadly Charly will build it before you. I'd suggest to retry the map applying some of the tips. If you would not have build a rather unprofitable harbor and barracks, you would not have missed it. :x

Good luck~

Don't worry, I can take criticism if it helps me improve.

Reply:

Spoiler :

A: I seemed to completely overlook the fact that I might need borders popped to work decent tiles, and also (stupidly) thought "Hey, who needs mysticism".

B: I know it was very late to start building it, and I was hoping to get it on luck but expected someone else to take it anyway (I've played to about turn 300 so I know charly takes it - it was turning into a very boring build culture in everything with the culture slider as high as possible without losing all our funds in 10 turns and just build money in the fourth city)

C: I guess I was just looking at resources rather than what else I could get out of the city when doing my dot maps so I will try to take things like this into account next time.

Also at what point should I go mysticism? So that it will be done in time for the building of my first extra city?

Also, a decision has been made - GAME ABANDONED! I'm starting over. Hopefully with what i've learned, it'll go better this time.

 

[shulgi]

@Quronslice

Spoiler :

think it's a bit tempting to skip monuments when isolated but the food on this continent is pretty awful. I generally go for mysticism around the time of second city, often after getting pottery or some time around it. I bet there's a fair amount of variety in where people settled their cities, just one small note - I like the island city labeled 2 not on the plains hill as production is pretty limited for locations like this. I got great lighthouse fairly late on emperor because my production was abysmal and I chopped pre maths. Mining the sheep is a good call in this situation. It's a critical wonder on this map.

Naval invasions are such a pain. I guess I'm going to risk the slow medieval war against Isabella who is the #1 civ in my game.

 

[BurN]

Don't worry, I can take criticism if it helps me improve.

Reply:

Spoiler :

A: I seemed to completely overlook the fact that I might need borders popped to work decent tiles, and also (stupidly) thought "Hey, who needs mysticism".

B: I know it was very late to start building it, and I was hoping to get it on luck but expected someone else to take it anyway (I've played to about turn 300 so I know charly takes it - it was turning into a very boring build culture in everything with the culture slider as high as possible without losing all our funds in 10 turns and just build money in the fourth city)

C: I guess I was just looking at resources rather than what else I could get out of the city when doing my dot maps so I will try to take things like this into account next time.

Also at what point should I go mysticism? So that it will be done in time for the building of my first extra city?

Also, a decision has been made - GAME ABANDONED! I'm starting over. Hopefully with what i've learned, it'll go better this time.

Spoiler :

It's actually a rather tricky map, I think especially for noble players. Low food/much sea/low hammers. And the land of some of our competitors is superior.

I think why you delayed the great lighthouse is you might miss the point of how strong it is commerce wise and is a must on a map like this. After you built it, take a look in one of your new founded city's, see how much it costs you in upkeep and then look at how much commerce=science/gold it is generating right from the start. What you will find is that it will always be profitable to found a new city, how crappy it might be. It will become even stronger once you have open borders with other AI's due better trade route commerce.

I do realize that you 'could' settle Charle's land on noble, though I'm not sure if I would advise it. I think in general it's more informative to see how you could develop 'your' land. If played well you should be able to crush charly or other AI's later in the game. Be it with cuirs, cannons, rifles..

For the timing of mysticism: If you put your city nr1 (not capital) where I put it, you don't need it at that point. However it would be nice to have it right before you settle city nr2 since it needs a border pop asap to work that fish. You could use the clams from the other city to grow to size 2 and whip a monument.

It's not really needed to completely abondon your game but it might help you to replay it and compare it to your first game.

cheers~

@shulgi:

Spoiler :

I think it's better on the plains hill. The difference is 3 hammers total so I see the value of that hill in your scenario as 3 hammers. Now you could imagine it as a desert hill, which is pretty crappy considered you could work a financial cottage instead. I think the main source of hammers on this crappy land will be the whip for a long time anyways.

 

[pigswill]

I had a go at this on Noble normal speed up to 1ad.

Up to 2000bc.

Spoiler :

I settled one west on top of wine coz wine is such a naff tile. Went worker first then a warrior then a WB. At pop 4 I started on a settler which I double whipped. Settled Uppsala between the 2 corn tiles for faster growth. Once I'd got my second city I started on trading post for Glight (1 chop). Uppsala grew on a warrior before starting on a monument.
Techwise it went Agric, AH, mining, BW, sailing, masonry, myst, started wheel.
Scout explored our starting island. Charlemagne visited from the south. Sending a workboat to find Chuck's pad.

To 1000bc.

Spoiler :

Researched wheel (for chariots), writing (for OB), pots, started MC (for Colossus). Settled Haithabu on horse/rice to build chariots for cheap barb protection in 1560.
Nidaros completed Glight in 1360bc, fairly late but better than never.
Uppsala built another settler, almost ready to settle on island to get an overseas trade route.
Workboat has vitually explored Chuck's island.
Lost a scout to a barb warrior, chariot killed warrior, didn't see any more barbs.

To 1ad.

Spoiler :

Techwise this round went MC, IW, maths, currency, CoL (founded Confu), started CS.
Once MC was in Nidaros started on a forge (part whipped) then Colossus. Settled Bjorgvin in 600bc for copper, sheep, marble) and got copper connected in time to add a (maths boosted) chop for Colossus (60h). Colossus completed in 325bc. Next city was Jelling in far south east (iron, fish) which somewhat fortuitously became Confu holy city for a cheap border pop which introduced us to Isabella. Some mayan fellow turned up from the south, obviously I didn't explore HRE as well as I thought.
I'd been running an eng once forge was built and at fairly low odds (80% GM) I popped a GE. Free Pyramids in 200bc. Rep happiness .



Probably won't continue but if I did I'd go machinery next, build boats while waiting for machinery then build berserkers and go stomp someone nearby. Probably go for feud to start on the vassalising.

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

monarch - normal - no huts no events
until 1000BC

Spoiler :

SIP
Q? /note - is there a list of what a bonus resource does for a city tile? does settling a resource ever pay off ?/
Q? I used my GE to get a metal casting, was that a good idea?
Q? if i weren't alone on the mini-continent, would going for the GL be a good idea?
Q? did anyone manage to make any specialized cities? to me it seems I could not afford that.
tech list:
Turn 12/500 (3520 BC) Animal Husbandry
Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) Mining
Turn 28/500 (2880 BC) Sailing
Turn 34/500 (2640 BC) Masonry
Turn 42/500 (2320 BC) Bronze Working
Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) Agriculture
Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) The Wheel
Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) Pottery
Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) Mysticism
Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Writing
build list:
(chopping every forest down)
Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) Nidaros finishes: Work Boat
Turn 25/500 (3000 BC) Nidaros finishes: Worker
Turn 31/500 (2760 BC) Nidaros finishes: Warrior
Turn 40/500 (2400 BC) Nidaros finishes: Trading Post
Turn 45/500 (2200 BC) Nidaros finishes: Settler whip
Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) Nidaros finishes: Warrior
Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) Nidaros finishes: The Great Lighthouse whip
Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) Uppsala finishes: Work Boat whip
Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) Nidaros finishes: Granary
Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Uppsala finishes: Warrior
work list:
Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) A Fishing Boats was built near Nidaros
Turn 30/500 (2800 BC) A Pasture was built near Nidaros
Turn 35/500 (2600 BC) A Mine was built near Nidaros
Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) A Cottage was built near Nidaros
Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) A Fishing Boats was built near Uppsala
-found my own hynduism but that was a waste - but I was afraid of being isolated for too long
starting the GL

expansion 875BC

1000BC - 1400AD - looking good, any ideas on how to take thos to VC?

Spoiler :

I think I will take Pacal and Izzy down as well...
Turn 133/500 (450 AD) Nidaros finishes: The Colossus
Imhotep (Great Engineer) born in Nidaros Turn 152/500 (840 AD)
Golden Age begins Turn 153/500 (860 AD)
NC112 Ragnar (Vikings) declares war on Charlemagne (Holy Rome) Turn 153/500 (860 AD)
Holy Roman Empire has been eliminated Turn 202/500 (1420 AD)
- I also concentrated on getting + 1 movement from around the globe travel, which I did, sometime around T188 I think 1200ad
plans:
converted to Judaism to please Pacal, but that was when I was planning to attack Izzy next.
but now that I have a foothold on Pacal's island and no astro to reach Izzy, he is next.
I had big troubles with war weariness.
research:
Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) Writing
Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) Meditation
Turn 76/500 (975 BC) Priesthood
Turn 93/500 (550 BC) Code of Laws
Turn 96/500 (475 BC) Archery
Turn 106/500 (225 BC) Monarchy
Turn 109/500 (150 BC) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Metal Casting
Turn 111/500 (100 BC) Polytheism
Turn 115/500 (0 AD) [3 Monotheism
Turn 124/500 (225 AD) Mathematics
Turn 128/500 (325 AD) Iron Working
Turn 137/500 (540 AD) Currency
Turn 143/500 (660 AD) Construction
Turn 154/500 (880 AD) Machinery
Turn 159/500 (980 AD) Compass
Turn 166/500 (1060 AD) Optics
Turn 170/500 (1100 AD) Alphabet
Turn 180/500 (1200 AD) Feudalism
Turn 182/500 (1220 AD) Tech traded to Pacal II (Maya): Compass
Turn 182/500 (1220 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Calendar
Turn 189/500 (1290 AD) Tech traded to Justinian I (Byzantium): Compass
Turn 189/500 (1290 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Aesthetics
Turn 191/500 (1310 AD) Civil Service
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech traded to Justinian I (Byzantium): Civil Service
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech traded to Justinian I (Byzantium): Optics
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Engineering
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Literature
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech traded to Pacal II (Maya): Machinery
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Drama
Turn 193/500 (1330 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Horseback Riding
Turn 194/500 (1340 AD) Tech traded to Hammurabi (Babylon): Compass
Turn 194/500 (1340 AD) Tech traded to Hammurabi (Babylon): Horseback Riding
Turn 194/500 (1340 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Theology
Turn 196/500 (1360 AD) Tech traded to Tokugawa (Japan): Monotheism
Turn 196/500 (1360 AD) Tech traded to Hammurabi (Babylon): Feudalism
Turn 196/500 (1360 AD) Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Paper

expansion 125AD

attack on Vienna - just south
at this point I got my hopes down - note his attack stack just nearby. I decided to make the landing anyway - he then attacked my landing party destroying tha catapult, but the leftover was enough to take Vienna, but only by 1-2 swords
I think this was a turning point in the game.
Alternative solution would be to keep sailing along his border away from his stack.

AD 1400

 

[Gojeran]

Noble no huts chain cap domination win in 1935.

Spoiler :

Took out Charlemagne after he declared a ******ed war against me. He sent 1 sword and 1 axeman, I killed both with my recently aquired Berserkers. Ended war with him ASAP to build up galleys and more Berserkers then re launched my attack. Took all his lands very easily but it tanked my economy pretty badly. I even took his city on Pacal island which i ended up just gifting to Pacal who was close to friendly with me at the time.

After the war I worked on re building infrastructure and teching toward rifles having a major tech lead over all the AI. Won lib and took astro for ocean trading, ocean boats, and more tech potential.

Shortly after getting rifles I attacked Isabella who had been making all sorts of ******ed demands of me. Also she had just declared on Pacal so it seemed an ideal time. She put up the best fight of all the AI but it was most upgraded Berserkers into rifles for the Amphibious bonus though 2 of my cities could train rifles that could get that without needing to upgrade from berserkers first.

After she was down I headed toward Tokugawa who was INSANELY backwards, its was a total joke. 3 cities down in about 6 turns or so and he threw in the towel.

Last 2 targets were Hammurabi and Justinian in that order. I screwed my finish by 10 turns by accidentally accepting a peace deal with Justinian via a misclick. 10 turns later war break outs again and its a few turns a few cities and he caps. I thought I would win there but I didn't have enough land yet... so i declare on my best friend Pacal! I take his capital on turn one of the war and bam DOMINATION VICTORY!!

Fun game! Will play next in series and maybe record. Funny my last Ragnar win was almost via domination but was with infantry + artillery and not a single ship was built, boy was this game different!

Here are a few shots from the last few turns. Its all I took, oops!!

Spoiler :

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

domination victory - monarch - 1900 ad - standard - no huts
one of my first monarch wins ;-)

until 1400AD

1400ad - 1900ad

Spoiler :

not much to say, after taking over Charlemagne, it went in following order with no breaks, with the same naval/serker stack:

1430ad Charlemagne


1715ad Isabella


1818ad Pacal


after that Justinian, Tokugava and hammurabi in matter of turns.
Justinian was going well until astronomy, at which point he settled every tiny island and bancrupted his economy:

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

gojeran about amphibious - with aggressive it is very easy to spam ambhibious units... in every city, but you need vassallage or theocracy.

then you start with combat 1, get combat 2 upgrade and after that amphibious

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Don't worry, I can take criticism if it helps me improve.

Also, a decision has been made - GAME ABANDONED! I'm starting over. Hopefully with what i've learned, it'll go better this time.

Spoiler :

Sorry to hear that. I always play my games out though, even if it means losing.
Especially if you play on warlord or noble, you could still pull some modern warfare at least for the fun of it, and so you have practice for when you really need it, since you don't get much practice with modern warfare normally.

Try looking in detail on what others did in the beginning. And set small goals for yourself:
Build the GL until T60, settle whole island with well placed cities until T100,

get 10-12 swords/catapults ready (and 5-6 galleys and 1-2 triremes) to conquest Charlemagne

always have a small goal and intermediate goal. long-term goals are not useful in this game, since you have to be flexible.

Try fulfilling these goals and even if in the end the best you can do is a time victory/loss, you can say your civ managed to achieve this and that.

 

[Gojeran]

gojeran about amphibious - with aggressive it is very easy to spam ambhibious units... in every city, but you need vassalage or theocracy.

then you start with combat 1, get combat 2 upgrade and after that amphibious

Yeah I thought about trying that but most of my cities had different religions and I didn't really want to bother picking and spreading one around, in retrospect it might have been a better idea to have done so at least in the theocracy route.... Something to keep in mind for next ocean war game!

 

[BurN]

Deity 1846AD, Space.

Spoiler :

As said, I didn't want to bother with war so I beelined Medicine for sushi. Bribed Lizzy into war with Charly, which lasted trough most of the game. It was an expensive bribe but worth it Imho.
After medicine I went for electricity/radio wonders to get me more fishies for sushi. Then it was off to Assembly line and computers for internet.


Capital Oxf/NE
Bjorgvin IW
Tonsberg WS/Sushi

Spoiler :

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

Deity 1846AD, Space.

Spoiler :

As said, I didn't want to bother with war so I beelined Medicine for sushi. Bribed Lizzy into war with Charly, which lasted trough most of the game. It was an expensive bribe but worth it Imho.
After medicine I went for electricity/radio wonders to get me more fishies for sushi. Then it was off to Assembly line and computers for internet.


Capital Oxf/NE
Bjorgvin IW
Tonsberg WS/Sushi

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

what did you do with the sushi?

 

[Angst]

Ok I'm going to try this out. Won't post a lot of details though, I think.

Noble difficulty (K-Mod), starting now!

Starting thoughts: Will move scout NE. Will prioritize coastal cities for naval entry and fishery.

Spoiler After revealing NE :

Ok, there's corn there, but I'll settle in place. Starting out for Fishing Boats and will tech Mining, then Bronze Working to chop for a Settler. Seems like the SE desert is an OK spot for second city with access to two food resources, so I'll do that too.

Spoiler Turn 37 :

Slow start, two workers now, chopping for a Settler... However, my Scout got slaughtered by a Lion so I might have to build an escort. Knowing myself, I'll gamble...

Spoiler Turn 43 :

Yea the settler died, lol. I have great luck this game. First a dead Scout, then a dead Settler I guess I refused the handicap... And now it's really severe. But hey, it's only Noble.

Spoiler Turn 115, 1 AD :

Things are going kinda swell. Up at 5 cities now, have almost filled out the island. Not the best start ever. Going to go for a late Great Lighthouse and a Colossus to support my economy and go peacemongering rather than warmongering for this game (Until I identify the location of that bloody Charlemagne.

 

[BurN]

Spoiler :

what did you do with the sushi?

Not sure if I understand your question. I grew into happy cap, worked all land tiles and ran rep specialists from buildings (since I was in emancipation).

 

[pigswill]

Noble. Normal. 1510ad.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Got CS and machinery for berserkers 250ad, slowly built up berserkers and galleys, mucked around going for glib and music etc.

First Half: Isabella 640, capped 820; Chuck 980, capped 1030; Pacal 1100, capped 1110.

Half Time: Took a break while going for milsci (1190) and astronomy(1250). Upgraded berserkers to grenadiers (CR+amphib) and galleys to galleons, added a few frigates for bombardment.

Second Half: Ham 1330, capped 1380; Just 1430, capped 1470; Toku 1480, capped 1505.

I probably wasted quite a few turns by going for music. Economy basically ran on Great Lighthouse and overseas trade routes.[

 

[mighty gandhi]

1905 domination victory on emperor level.It was a nice match,I usually don't play this kind of map.

Spoiler :

Started with an eye on the economy since the initial island it's quite crappy for gold.So completed the GLH(I really think you should do that in this game),gone currency while settling the whole island.Bulbed MC and managed to finish the Colossus without any hurry.Then I had a strong economy but those guys were researching like hell so i decide to invade the weak and alone charlie on the south(he was the only induist).Wiped him out and took other 10 cities about.Istantly declared on Izzy and let me tell you with Ragnar you don't have a lot of problems invading by sea.She capitolated quite istantly(took 4 cities in about 7-8 turns).Then Pakal,Hammi,Justinian and Toku last.No problem as long as you have a big fleet and lot of transport the IA is very stupid by sea)
Really nice game.I enjoyed.Next time I'll try to put more screenshots or register the game if I'm up with that.

 

[Gasp]

I'm going through some old NC as I didn't know CFC before and need training.

Just started this one and an AI has been destroyed on turn 34 haha, probably by the barbarians..

Spoiler :

 

[Gasp]

I hope someone could help me with city placement. I made this dot map (first shot at it and I'm not convinced by my choices)

Question 1 : which spot for a 2nd city ?

Question 2 : could someone give his opinion on this dot map ?

Spoiler Dot map :

 

[sampsa]

Going for AH looks like a clear mistake to me. Just mine the sheep, you have plenty of food anyway. Skipping AH allows you to get sooner to things you really need, like BW/sailing/writing.

Trying to dot map the whole island with possibly still uncovered sea food seems silly to me. Oh and then there is an AI that will be throwing wrenches at some point. Just focus on getting the best possible 2nd city now. After that focus on getting the best possible 3rd and so on. For me, 2nd city grabs the corn. 1E, 1N or NE. I'd lean towards 1E of the corn to be instantly connected. It can also help with what you need to get the 3rd city up.

3rd city is harder, since the land is so poor. I guess you need to go for the southern clam island, but that needs sailing+galley. Note that capital pops borders T50, so the clam is within your culture.

Edit: thought HRE is on your island (the yellow mark), but apparently I was mistaken.