Nobles' Club CXLIII: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

[elmurcis]

Spoiler :

This is some crazy wonder builder start (with PHI even better).. settled 1S of stone, 2nd city 1W from cow (worker->warrior->settler).. got Stonehedge, Great Wall, Pyramids, GLighthouse, Hanging Gardens, TGLibrary, MoM, all in capital (something else? maybe.. only Justinian got some 3 other early wonders done ), whipping settlers into maximal overflow same time, so no big problems with expansion..
And these crazy longbows/crosbow with that totem pole.. can eat swords/axes open field

 

[CivNoobie]

went wonder-whoring on my first try,

got Stonehenge, Oracle, Pyramid, GW, Hanging Garden, Shwedagon Paya, Parthenon and GLB all at 150 AD....then got DoW'd by gilgamesh because I didn't pick his religion


might have a go at it later

 

[Admiral Daizo]

From a glance, I would probably settle on the stone. It saves you from having to build a quarry to gain access to the stone, has access to fresh water, and puts you in position to access the six food resources (I've rarely ever started with that many near my start position). I would probably go for Stonehenge (and other wonders that use stone) since you have the stone to speed up its construction.

As for the civ, while the Protective trait and the Totem Pole are IMO only above average by themselves, together they form a pretty powerful combo. The PRO trait + Totem Pole + Barracks allows archers access to the Drill III or City Garrison III promotions the moment they're built. This is something I have used to great affect, particularly against my friends on my personal LAN network.

 

[CivNoobie]

IMMORTAL WITH HUT 1140AD

Spoiler :

hit industrial age by snatching steel from liberalism.

Wonder spamm'd all game long and eventually my capital city became the GP farm which I did not settle on the stone as someone else mentioned.

Had trouble early in the game expanding when I was stuck with 5 and zara got 9; then toku DoW'd on zara and I joined the fight by attacking his cities just up north of me with Dog soldiers against his axemen.

Justinian had the tech advantage all game long until I bulbed Divine Rights (that's right, I was getting great prophets all game) and found Islam; that's when I traded that useless tech for feudalism, machinery, construction which paved my way for self-tech engineering.

After getting Engineering by myself, I bulbed education and went for Gunpowder -> Chem -> meanwhile I had 2 golden ages by that time (I can get a 3rd one right now with the 2 GP sitting in Cahokia). Justinian was still 5 turns away from liberalism when I got it.

Now im thinking of CR2 macemen with cannon attack on zara and toku then vassal both in shortly after.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

From a glance, I would probably settle on the stone. It saves you from having to build a quarry to gain access to the stone, has access to fresh water

That's Coast not a Lake so no fresh water if you go this route.

 

[Admiral Daizo]

That's Coast not a Lake so no fresh water if you go this route.

Thanks for pointing that out, I should have paid more attention to the original pic... Regardless, I would still probably settle on the stone. I haven't found the time to play the scenario itself yet, but might try it later this weekend.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

I completely screwed up my economy... at one point I was breaking even at 10% research Or would be more appropriate? Just before 1000 AD in the game. Settled 2W

 

[lymond]

I completely screwed up my economy... at one point I was breaking even at 10% research Or would be more appropriate? Just before 1000 AD in the game. Settled 2W

Welcome to BTS...finally

Economy is one of the harder things to learn for newer players, but often I find that there economy is not always as bad as they think it is. Also note that the hammer conversions of building Wealth and Research are much better in BTS than Vanilla.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I dunno, I'm finding it quite to my liking. It's of course too early to really say but this could shape up to be one of my faster victories at this difficulty, maybe even my fastest.

My biggest worry with this map was that it would be too hard for the higher level players especially Diety!! lol

 

[MegaLurker]

My biggest worry with this map was that it would be too hard for the higher level players especially Diety!! lol

We'll see how it goes. I got to 8 strong cities no problem and the mids+ridiculous food+compact empire+philosophical will generally make for easy games on Deity. Perhaps I got lucky with no early DoW because they are tricky neighbours, but I got to those 8 cities without having to settle up in their faces and become the obvious first target.

 

[GreatWhiteHope]

I played until 1040 BC and lost the game on an early DOW. Sad.

I'll keep trying until I win. I just don't know how to avoid these early DOWs.

Spoiler :

 

[MegaLurker]

No way, really. Luck of the draw. Well there is one method that's a good last-ditch effort. You can settle a city, placed to be as useless as possible while still near enough to his borders (i think it has to be within 9 tiles), and gift it to him. That will usually get them to pleased at which point you can try to beg a resource from them. You can only do that if you have open borders and trade routes, though. Or if you have alpha you might be able to beg a cheap tech like Mysticism.

 

[MegaLurker]

My biggest worry with this map was that it would be too hard for the higher level players especially Diety!! lol

Well as it turns out I don't think my confidence was misplaced.

This game really showcases the true power of the Pyramids combined with the Philosophical trait. By going rep/caste/pacifism in an early golden age and working max scientists in every city one is able to dominate the Deity AI tech rate, I will upload a save or two for people to check out if they don't really understand how effective even just rep scientists are on a high food map.

So another detailed Deity writeup, feeling more like immortal, to about 1100AD:

Spoiler :

Hmmm, what has happened since 500BC? Well:



A second GP, the Great Library, and winning Music all in the same turn in 75BC. Nice date for all, the first GP was a scientist which built an academy in the future capital Snaketown (gold/corn/tons of green riverside/hills). Was unlucky to get two great engineers because of the 'mids, running rep I settled them both in the future capital. This may have been suboptimal, but there are no important wonders to build until oxford (we have stone, would be a waste of an GEnginerr) and no need for bulbing due to my ridiculous tech lead. Just a few turns later I get my third GP, a GScientist:



Who bulbs Philo in 100AD, giving me a monopoly on it and diverting the AIs away from Liberalism. It also allows me to switch into pacifism/buddhism (as well as caste system and bureaucracy during my golden age (from the Music GArtist), which I share with Gilgamesh who is the main threat to me. We share a long border and his on-again-off-again war with Charlemagne meant I was still a possible DoW target. Pacifism, as if Philosophical wasn't enough:



Pre-lib I have 8 GPs generated already, that's more than I've built of any unit including settlers And with more on the way. But aside from GPs I'm also all about the cash-ola:



This is the importance of paying attention to your trade screen on Deity. That's 31gpt from extras and resources I'm not using like stone. Doubly important because it denies the AI that income, this works the same way on Immortal though to a lesser extent. Immortal AIs generally have less gpt to trade.



Fail gold from resource-boosted wonders. Also so, so important. I also got close to a couple hundred from the Parthenon, a handful from the MoM, and close to a hundred very early from the Great Wall as I showed in the last update.



Massive cash-for-tech trades. If you can get out to a tech lead you can basically take most of the money an AI gets from a Great Merchant trade mission if you get on it before the gold disappears. This is also also a powerful economic denial tactic.

This all becomes very relevant to my game as the need for a military breakout approaches. Even being philosophical the power of rep specialists will only carry you for so long. On Deity an AI with 12+ cities can begin to really pull away technologically in the industrial era, 6 beaker specialists will not keep up because they keep your population from expanding and get no multipliers.

In this game the issue is no Iron. I have horses but with such a significant early tech lead I don't want to wait for Cavalry. Good diplo got me all the way to friendly with Justinian, and he will trade me iron. For a couple health resources....and 119 gpt Painful, but Gilgamesh has a source of iron near our borders that I could take in a handful of turns with cuirs, so I go for it. With a Taj Mahal-powered golden age I switch into Police State, slavery, and free religion and begin whipping. All cities have at least a granary, barracks, and forge, most also have stables. With the incredible amount of food on this map that equals an almost instant army. In 1120AD:



I take a second city and have my own Iron at last. Immediately:



Deal canceled. It cost me over 1500 gold but will now allow me to go for cannons, and I will have my first vassal who will be able to do a lot of teching on my behalf while I stomp Toku and his vassal, Zara. As if to personally make up for that huge sum leaving me empire every turn:



It's Wang to the rescue again! I'm very fortunate that I can make these trades without even incurring a "traded with our worst enemy" diplo modifier with anyone.

I'll take cities from Gilgamesh until he capitulates, then hit Toku and Zara. Probably Zara first because getting at Toku from my borders means going over a big section of hills. And Zara is utterly backward technologically from the long centuries of the Japanese beating up on them By the time that's happening I will probably have rifling in and be producing Cavalry while I research steel (chemistry is already in).

This won't be my earliest Deity win date but it will probably be my second earliest.

Oh, and that whole dominating the Deity AI tech rate thing I mentioned:

Spoiler :

Keep in mind that
1) I already have Nationalism (it isnt showing up on the trade screen because none of the AIs have even unlocked it yet), a bulb into Chemistry, and most of gunpowder in this screenshot and
2) Tech trading has been limited to 2 AIs for most of the game to avoid "traded with our worst enemy" diplo hit and
3) I have a Great Artist and Great Scientist stockpiled

I haven't seen anything close to this before in any of my Deity games

 

[MegaLurker]

Here is the 1130AD save for anybody who's interested.

 

[JSS]

Deity, 1864AD, Domination

Spoiler :

Got 7 good cities and the mids. Libbed MT around 400AD, but didn't attack until 800AD. Waited for 3 Great Merchants, and upgraded 30+ HAs into Cuirassiers, and stomped Gilgamesh, Charlemagne and Justinian. After that the game was basically won. The rest of the game was clicking end turn and auto-building units and eventually overwhelming Wang and Tokugawa with superior numbers. At some point Zara peace vassaled, so that saved a few turns.

Overall an easy game after I didn't have to deal with any of the warmongers attacking me early.

 

[CivNoobie]

@ JSS impressive win

My game was rage-inducing

Immortal 1844AD conquest

Spoiler :

Starting from 1200 of my last save


------------CHAPTER 1---------------
DoW on Toku and Zara



quickly ended...

---------------------------

Now onto Justinian...




Just as I thought I had it...

nope...

-----------CHAPTER 2----------------
Now I backstab my allies









With 5 vassals, let's give it one more shot....




-------------CHAPTER 3-----------------
DoW on Ragnar and WK
Raggy is across the ocean so im too lazy for that, and WK had huge stacks of CG3 riflemen with multiple 1st strikes...






This game was over after Justinian fell @1600, but I had to won it with 8 vassals...

save was 1 turn before vc


enjoy!

 

[dalamb]

@MegaLurker: thanks for the detailed and informative post; I'd like to think I've learned some valuable lessons from it.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

Don't know if anyone else has tried this yet, but (playing on Prince)...

Spoiler :

I used my dog soldiers to autoraze one of Zara Yaqob's cities and choke his capital. He is now friendly towards me due to shared religion.

 

[Hurricane Jane]

I actually went out...

Spoiler :

And build every religious wonder in the entire game, just for the prophets. Why do the most horrendous wonders contribute to Great Prophets (especially the Screwdagon Paya, I never understood how that wonder could be okay)

Angkor Wat + Pyramids + Pacifism is really huge.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

And in another moment, I started a Golden Age with my first - and so far only - Great Scientist. Currently building the AP, sold Theology to all other Hindu civs to stop a Jewish AP giving Toku's city back to him. Could defy, but that would mean loads of unhappiness in the city. And I keep having to get rid of those stupid spy specialists the governor puts in and replacing them with engineers or scientists.