Snerk
Smeghead
GG folks! Thanks for hosting, Auto! And well played BL and fellow orcs! 
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NOTW LV: The Underground (Game Thread)
- Thread starter Autolycus
- Start date
Backwards, you Magnificent Bastard. 
It's been a while since you were non-town in a NOTW game, but now I remember why Catharsis suggested that if you're a wolf you should start the game locked in a box and thrown into the Amazon River.
It's been a while since you were non-town in a NOTW game, but now I remember why Catharsis suggested that if you're a wolf you should start the game locked in a box and thrown into the Amazon River.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
I'm sure autolycus will get around to quicktopics and role PMs and the like.
Backwards played a very excellent game, kudos to him.
My gut reaction (knowing perhaps a bit more than the town
) was this was absolutely fantastic in my opinion. Very interested in seeing it all and especially the isolationists, because the other gut reaction is that perhaps it was tougher on them with just 2 starting (though I assume the spores were risk-free, whereas double A did die in an attack).
I think I've particularly enjoyed all of autolycus's games. They seem to resonate with me.
Backwards played a very excellent game, kudos to him.
My gut reaction (knowing perhaps a bit more than the town
) was this was absolutely fantastic in my opinion. Very interested in seeing it all and especially the isolationists, because the other gut reaction is that perhaps it was tougher on them with just 2 starting (though I assume the spores were risk-free, whereas double A did die in an attack). I think I've particularly enjoyed all of autolycus's games. They seem to resonate with me.
clan of embers http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/yEgexR7jyne
dead folks http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/CgjFT2BBRSc
dead folks http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/CgjFT2BBRSc
Zack
99% hot gas
golems rule orcs drool
spaceman98
Plotting something
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,639
Apparently my gut read on JHT was correct. I should have stuck with it and pushed for it. My indicisiveness killed me, and possibly the town
Alright, time for the wall of role PMS: Please don't post until I'm done, as I haven't decided if I'm splitting it up into multiple posts.
The scum:
Both teams had a team kill ability, the ax for the clan and the throttle for the isolationists.
Kennigit:
Wound up being the primary killer for the orc team because BL wanted to use his ability.
Backwards Logic:
Backwards Logic chose to sac his PG night one, and rode his personal ability all the way through until the last night, which was the only night he used the team kill.
TFA/Double A
The orc team chose a high kill approach, but the alternative of just letting Double A use the team kill and the others have perfect townie alibis could have worked too. In the 16 player version, this role was removed. He would get scorched by anyone stronger than him (turning his torch back against him), but it happened to be the Dragon Boy
Jarrema:
In the 16 player version, he was all alone as a SK. The Isolationists definitely were the weaker scum faction, but they did have the (minor) advantage of not being named in the opening.
johnhughthom:
The counterpart to TFA/Double A, our poisoner was straight-up better, and the bus-driver alibi was truly a pleasure to watch. He did it too well, and so the Clan took him down when they wanted to remove a townie.
The scum:
Both teams had a team kill ability, the ax for the clan and the throttle for the isolationists.
Kennigit:
Spoiler :
Backwards Logic:
Spoiler :
TFA/Double A
Spoiler :
The orc team chose a high kill approach, but the alternative of just letting Double A use the team kill and the others have perfect townie alibis could have worked too. In the 16 player version, this role was removed. He would get scorched by anyone stronger than him (turning his torch back against him), but it happened to be the Dragon Boy
Jarrema:
Spoiler :
In the 16 player version, he was all alone as a SK. The Isolationists definitely were the weaker scum faction, but they did have the (minor) advantage of not being named in the opening.
johnhughthom:
Spoiler :
The town:
Zack:
One of the weaker roles, Zack played an active part through to the end. The ability was certainly situational. I was very confused when he claimed he started out with 3 strength.
Legato Endless:
The only full power protector in the game, his inactivity early on and death after returning certainly didn't help the town.
Robbiecon:
Although it wasn't obvious, he was immune to Visorslash's, choxorn's, and riedquat's abilities.
spaceman98:
Not the most exciting role, but still valuable. The lack of an active ability put a spotlight on him early.
Visorslash:
Visor fought the good fight from the beginning to the end, only not using his ability once, and leading much of the conversation. Unfortunately, his last act sealed the fate of the town. Visor, why did you hit Zack on the last night ?
KingMorgan:
The less dangerous, but role-block immune half of my spiky mason team. Only got targeted when he got killed.
classical_hero:
Another one of the weaker roles, he almost certainly made the right call not to use his ability.
landlubber:
Along with Visorslash one of two people who affected the vote. He used his ability every night, but never voted for someone he'd prepped.
Winston Hughes
Bsmith:
The other half of the spiky masons, he died night one to a team ability.
EQandcivfanatic/snerk 2.0:
The only true seer in the game, he could have id'd kennigit as a liar, although there were townie golems masquerading as people. Snerk was getting close to kennigit when he died. I liked the role,and may well bring some variant of it back in a future game.
riedquat:
One-time day vig. Not much else to say.
bladescape:
Townie role-blocker. Could have been very helpful, but died early.
sprig:
One of my favorite roles, but he only hit once.
choxorn:
Just a high-strength vengeful lynch, but his taking down Double A sent paranoia through the roof, especially for the orc team. I think BL was really scared that he'd die too when he attacked choxorn
takhisis:
Another role-blocker, and his strength was growing. Could have been a real pain for the scum.
Snerk:
The strength enhancer. His death at the beginning made both secondary killers more dangerous.
Zack:
Spoiler :
One of the weaker roles, Zack played an active part through to the end. The ability was certainly situational. I was very confused when he claimed he started out with 3 strength.
Legato Endless:
Spoiler :
The only full power protector in the game, his inactivity early on and death after returning certainly didn't help the town.
Robbiecon:
Spoiler :
spaceman98:
Spoiler :
Visorslash:
Spoiler :
Visor fought the good fight from the beginning to the end, only not using his ability once, and leading much of the conversation. Unfortunately, his last act sealed the fate of the town. Visor, why did you hit Zack on the last night ?
KingMorgan:
Spoiler :
The less dangerous, but role-block immune half of my spiky mason team. Only got targeted when he got killed.
classical_hero:
Spoiler :
landlubber:
Spoiler :
Winston Hughes
Spoiler :
Bsmith:
Spoiler :
EQandcivfanatic/snerk 2.0:
Spoiler :
riedquat:
Spoiler :
One-time day vig. Not much else to say.
bladescape:
Spoiler :
sprig:
Spoiler :
choxorn:
Spoiler :
Just a high-strength vengeful lynch, but his taking down Double A sent paranoia through the roof, especially for the orc team. I think BL was really scared that he'd die too when he attacked choxorn
takhisis:
Spoiler :
Snerk:
Spoiler :
Final thoughts: I thought from the beginning that the orcs might be slightly overpowered. I think more, their enemies were relatively weak compared to a typical NotW. I also was worried about an absolute bloodbath, with the theoretical possibility of five dead in one night, and I think I got lucky that we never even got close to that.
The primary vote tiebreaker, as I said in the dead thread, was that the side with more golems lost, but it never came up. I'd love any feedback others care to give, and I'm happy to answer any questions.
The primary vote tiebreaker, as I said in the dead thread, was that the side with more golems lost, but it never came up. I'd love any feedback others care to give, and I'm happy to answer any questions.
Visorslash
Deity
This loss is completely on me for hitting Zack last night. I wasn't even convinced he was scum but town having a tracker made sense with all the night kills.
I've felt terrible for two days.
I couldn't get past town having a tracker even though BL was in his scum meta of not saying a lot.
Likt I had legitimate reasons to suspect him but his role basically cleared him for everyone. If I had taken charge of night actions I think this game ends a lot earlier.
I've felt terrible for two days.
I couldn't get past town having a tracker even though BL was in his scum meta of not saying a lot.
Likt I had legitimate reasons to suspect him but his role basically cleared him for everyone. If I had taken charge of night actions I think this game ends a lot earlier.
Visorslash
Deity
Zack using his ability also breaks open the game basically. That role is very powerful. I laughed at it earlier, but on reconsideration is was very good.
Visorslash
Deity
Using it at the right times with verifiable night actions can out scum and clear some townies.
In hindsight that role is never a scum role and neither is sprigs. If I thought harder about it BL should've been the lynch but ah well.
In hindsight that role is never a scum role and neither is sprigs. If I thought harder about it BL should've been the lynch but ah well.
Backwards Logic
Emperor Palpatine
Great game Autolycus! Incredibly stressful at times, but ultimately fun. Thanks for hosting.
Also I'd like to thank my teammates Kennigit and Double A for being awesome. And yes, I take full responsibility for Double A's death.
Commiserations to the town, especially Visor and Zack. You guys played a helluva game and kept me on the edge of my seat that last few days.
Answer to the main question: "Why didn't the orcs kill Zack and/or Visor?" We have to go back to the beginning of the game to answer this.
For starters, we ended up missing two kills right from the start which set us back. With TFA MIA, we lost the night one kill when I tracked choxorn and Kennigit roleblocked bladescape. We never actually had a target for that first night. The second night we wanted to do a double kill -Double A on Riedquat and Kennigit on spaceman, but Kennigit was MIA and never got the orders in. With those two missed kills, it set everything else back. Would we have hit Visor and/or Zack? Maybe. But by night three I was attempting to play kill catch-up with Kennigit and Double A (fearing scanners and the like), sending Double A to kill choxorn (oops) and Takhisis who we knew was the roleblocker from my tracking. Once I had tracked Sprig and talked with Visor regarding his ability, Visor had made it seem to me Sprig was some sort of protector with his targeting of jht and Visor on N3. Visor said something along the lines of 'convincing a shady fellow to move along,' which I took to mean Sprig protected Visor and/or jht. I didn't want to push for clarification for risk of being exposed, so I let it stand as it was and assumed Sprig was some sort of double doctor who couldn't target himself. With that, I also assumed because of the interaction that jht would then bus drive Sprig to protect him. Visor at this moment looked untouchable.
So I thought there was this trifecta of players I wouldn't be able to crack for the entire game and until Visor had everyone claim in-thread, was assuming I'd need Kennigit alive to roleblock jht while I killed Sprig one night. It led to me bluffing the inactive tracking claim on Kennigit N2 to cover up the fact I tracked Takhisis and subsequently killed him the following night upon the revelation of his ability. Maybe the claim bought him a day or two, I don't know. I'd like to think it helped.
As far as Zack goes, at this stage Visor had everyone revealed in-thread and it painted a clearer picture of who was a threat to us and who wasn't. I figured Zack would off himself with so many people left and so many question marks (especially with the town flailing at this point), so he was left alone though I did consider it for a time. Kennigit made a great call offing Snerk, someone I hadn't entirely pinged on until Ken mentioned him as a possibility. Then from there it was straightforward. Zack not using his ability made him a candidate for lynch. There was always the possibility of lynching choxorn and getting another guy offed. The inactives were lynch fodder as far as I was concerned, jht who was a target from his claimed ability, and Sprig was conveniently framed a little too well for one of the nights.
Regarding whether we were overpowered or not. I'm biased because of my role and how the game played out, but I'd say it was pretty close. My only question which could swing it is whether or not we were immune to jht's spores. If we get -1'd at any point, I don't see how any of us even with perfect play make it to the final three. Had jht hit me at any point, my one strength doesn't cut it - choxorn had three, Visor had two, and mathematically there would have been no way for me around it - I'm lynch fodder before the end. If Ken gets hit, we lose a roleblocker and killer in one fell swoop. Double A becomes ability-less (who's gonna attack with one strength?)
Strength victories are tough in general to balance because while the scum need to have a higher strength than the townies, they can't have too high a strength and just steamroll them with a few well placed-kills/lynches. Throw in a strength scanner and it might as well be a cop if the numbers are too high. I think if I had to balance things, I would have given the orcs a tad higher strength (maybe 2 extra points higher total across the three players) while also allowing the poisoner to affect us.
Role-wise Auto hit it right on the head. If I have any other ability besides tracker, I don't get to the end. The roleblocker was a nice add with the abilities present and looking over the role PM"s Double A had the right strength for his ability - only seven total players wound or kill Double A, the rest are kills. And I picked one of the seven
All in all Auto, you nailed the setup. A dramatic finish with four players left going into the final night is something I think every GM hopes for. There was a ton of tension and drama and I'm sure I'm not the only one that felt it. It was a very exciting game for me and it's not one I'll forget anytime soon. Cheers!
Also I'd like to thank my teammates Kennigit and Double A for being awesome. And yes, I take full responsibility for Double A's death
.Commiserations to the town, especially Visor and Zack. You guys played a helluva game and kept me on the edge of my seat that last few days.
Answer to the main question: "Why didn't the orcs kill Zack and/or Visor?" We have to go back to the beginning of the game to answer this.
For starters, we ended up missing two kills right from the start which set us back. With TFA MIA, we lost the night one kill when I tracked choxorn and Kennigit roleblocked bladescape. We never actually had a target for that first night. The second night we wanted to do a double kill -Double A on Riedquat and Kennigit on spaceman, but Kennigit was MIA and never got the orders in. With those two missed kills, it set everything else back. Would we have hit Visor and/or Zack? Maybe. But by night three I was attempting to play kill catch-up with Kennigit and Double A (fearing scanners and the like), sending Double A to kill choxorn (oops) and Takhisis who we knew was the roleblocker from my tracking. Once I had tracked Sprig and talked with Visor regarding his ability, Visor had made it seem to me Sprig was some sort of protector with his targeting of jht and Visor on N3. Visor said something along the lines of 'convincing a shady fellow to move along,' which I took to mean Sprig protected Visor and/or jht. I didn't want to push for clarification for risk of being exposed, so I let it stand as it was and assumed Sprig was some sort of double doctor who couldn't target himself. With that, I also assumed because of the interaction that jht would then bus drive Sprig to protect him. Visor at this moment looked untouchable.
So I thought there was this trifecta of players I wouldn't be able to crack for the entire game and until Visor had everyone claim in-thread, was assuming I'd need Kennigit alive to roleblock jht while I killed Sprig one night. It led to me bluffing the inactive tracking claim on Kennigit N2 to cover up the fact I tracked Takhisis and subsequently killed him the following night upon the revelation of his ability. Maybe the claim bought him a day or two, I don't know. I'd like to think it helped.
As far as Zack goes, at this stage Visor had everyone revealed in-thread and it painted a clearer picture of who was a threat to us and who wasn't. I figured Zack would off himself with so many people left and so many question marks (especially with the town flailing at this point), so he was left alone though I did consider it for a time. Kennigit made a great call offing Snerk, someone I hadn't entirely pinged on until Ken mentioned him as a possibility. Then from there it was straightforward. Zack not using his ability made him a candidate for lynch. There was always the possibility of lynching choxorn and getting another guy offed. The inactives were lynch fodder as far as I was concerned, jht who was a target from his claimed ability, and Sprig was conveniently framed a little too well for one of the nights.
Regarding whether we were overpowered or not. I'm biased because of my role and how the game played out, but I'd say it was pretty close. My only question which could swing it is whether or not we were immune to jht's spores. If we get -1'd at any point, I don't see how any of us even with perfect play make it to the final three. Had jht hit me at any point, my one strength doesn't cut it - choxorn had three, Visor had two, and mathematically there would have been no way for me around it - I'm lynch fodder before the end. If Ken gets hit, we lose a roleblocker and killer in one fell swoop. Double A becomes ability-less (who's gonna attack with one strength?)
Strength victories are tough in general to balance because while the scum need to have a higher strength than the townies, they can't have too high a strength and just steamroll them with a few well placed-kills/lynches. Throw in a strength scanner and it might as well be a cop if the numbers are too high. I think if I had to balance things, I would have given the orcs a tad higher strength (maybe 2 extra points higher total across the three players) while also allowing the poisoner to affect us.
Role-wise Auto hit it right on the head. If I have any other ability besides tracker, I don't get to the end. The roleblocker was a nice add with the abilities present and looking over the role PM"s Double A had the right strength for his ability - only seven total players wound or kill Double A, the rest are kills. And I picked one of the seven
All in all Auto, you nailed the setup. A dramatic finish with four players left going into the final night is something I think every GM hopes for. There was a ton of tension and drama and I'm sure I'm not the only one that felt it. It was a very exciting game for me and it's not one I'll forget anytime soon. Cheers!
You were not immune to spores, but Double A didn't get wounded on equal strength, he just failed to kill. I think you sell yourself a bit short. If you had gotten spored, then you would have had to survive that final round of three, but I think you had a real shot at it.
Visorslash
Deity
I'm still peeved you guys lynched bladescape and spaceman.
I said hey guys don't lynch bladescape and spaceman I really really think they're town.
I was right on most of those flips.
I said hey guys don't lynch bladescape and spaceman I really really think they're town.
I was right on most of those flips.
Kennigit
proud 2 boxer
What is "3-5" in the golem scanner role? Why is there a range
I'd flip flop on whether jht should have had 2 STR but that is a very robust set of roles! Classical hero's is maybe a bit worse I'd say, and bsmith would be super scary (could be really bad for the town...) but I really like everything else. Classical's is fine too but yea, very situational whether to ever use it
Very good
I'd flip flop on whether jht should have had 2 STR but that is a very robust set of roles! Classical hero's is maybe a bit worse I'd say, and bsmith would be super scary (could be really bad for the town...) but I really like everything else. Classical's is fine too but yea, very situational whether to ever use it
Very good
spaceman98
Plotting something
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,639
Your role PM for JHT is Jarrema's I think
landlubber
Scottish Nationalist
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Messages
- 1,534
Why was I killed by the isolationists relatively early on? I wasn't really doing anything important.
Brilliant game though, lots of fun to watch after death.
Brilliant game though, lots of fun to watch after death.
