Obama wants to propose new college rating system. Okay?

[Kaitzilla]

I'm not really up to date on education policy, but does this plan address what has caused college costs to balloon in the last few decades and does it take any steps to get that ballooning under control?

This isn't too hard to pin down.

1) There are more college administrators than teachers/instructors now.
Gotta pay for the 10 person million dollar diversity office somehow.

Take the California State University system, the second tier in that state’s public higher education. Between 1975 and 2008 the number of faculty rose by 3 percent, to 12,019 positions. During those same years the number of administrators rose 221 percent, to 12,183. That’s right: There are more administrators than teachers at Cal State now.

2) Feds have taken over the entire student loan industry and never say no.
They also outlawed declaring bankruptcy on student loans, so no matter what they can hound you to the day you die and beyond to get their money.

Why wouldn't you jack tuition every single year with these things in mind? It's not like students can do math. Their parents certainly don't know that it is no longer an automatic ticket to a good job.

 

[galdre]

The rise in the number of administrators, right or wrong, is because faculty did not want to fulfill those roles any more. As the number of administrators has risen, the number of tenure or tenure-track faculty has fallen (used to be 30% adjunct in only some schools, now many are around 70%). This was done to help offset the cost of the extra administrators.

So while spending has gone up, the cutting of money to schools has been the biggest problem.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The rise in the number of administrators, right or wrong, is because faculty did not want to fulfill those roles any more. As the number of administrators has risen, the number of tenure or tenure-track faculty has fallen (used to be 30% adjunct in only some schools, now many are around 70%). This was done to help offset the cost of the extra administrators.

So while spending has gone up, the cutting of money to schools has been the biggest problem.

Your last sentence has a logic error possibly.

**Edit** Ah nevermind, it is possible now that I think on it.


Remove all barriers to student loans being discharged in bankruptcy. That will eventually solve all the expensive college problems.

 

[galdre]

not well worded, I admit

Of course the cut in funding to unis is connected with the decreasing tax revenues of states, which is connected to the shrinking middle class and high unemployment. So fix the economy, close the wealth gap, and unis can easily be fully funded (or simply cut the military spending in half and use that on education, but that's just crazy talk . . .)

 

[Zelig]

The problem with higher education is that it's not properly funded.

That doesn't seem to actually be the case, American universities are outrageously more expensive than comparable universities outside of America, to the point where tuition alone is more than the total per-student cost at non-American universities.

 

[galdre]

That doesn't seem to actually be the case, American universities are outrageously more expensive than comparable universities outside of America, to the point where tuition alone is more than the total per-student cost at non-American universities.

Which universities outside the US cost less?

Also, does what you say include private universities in the US, which are horribly inefficient when compared to state schools?

I know tuition at UK universities can get up to 9,000 pounds, nearly $15k USD per year. And that doesn't include money those universities get from the govt, but I don't know much about the university systems in other countries.

 

[dutchfire]

My Dutch university costs (for non-EU citizens, EU-citizens get government support. So the rates here should reflect the marginal cost for the university):
7k/year for most bachelors
9.3k/year for most masters
9.3k/year for STEM bachelor
10.2k/year for STEM master
17k/year for medicine

This is without housing, food, sports centre and whatever else is included in those bizarre US universities.

All prices in euro

 

[Zelig]

Which universities outside the US cost less?

Also, does what you say include private universities in the US, which are horribly inefficient when compared to state schools?

I know tuition at UK universities can get up to 9,000 pounds, nearly $15k USD per year. And that doesn't include money those universities get from the govt, but I don't know much about the university systems in other countries.

Tuition in Canada is commonly around $7k, universities get about half their money from the government, total per-student cost is around $15k.

 

[galdre]

My Dutch university costs (for non-EU citizens, EU-citizens get government support. So the rates here should reflect the marginal cost for the university):
7k/year for most bachelors
9.3k/year for most masters
9.3k/year for STEM bachelor
10.2k/year for STEM master
17k/year for medicine

This is without housing, food, sports centre and whatever else is included in those bizarre US universities.

The state school I gave the numbers for is just under $12k USD for non state residents, so a little more (assuming the numbers you gave were in Euros), but that's for any undergrad degree so is a little cheaper for STEM than your uni.

 

[galdre]

Tuition in Canada is commonly around $7k, universities get about half their money from the government, total per-student cost is around $15k.

Not sure how much CA state universities get from the state; I'm assuming that out of state tuition is total cost, which comes out less than $15k.

I won't get into private schools. They are ridiculously overpriced, but I think they do that not because of cost but to exclude anyone not coming from a wealthy background.

 

[downtown]

What a great solution. Cut money to schools, and then when they raise tuition cut the money that goes to the students (who already don't get enough).

I did a little experiment a short time ago. I looked at the state uni I graduated from and added up how much it would cost to go there full-time right now if I lived on campus. Then I looked at the max financial aid you can get and the max loans you can get (without having getting private loans, which usually need a co-signer). I cam up $36k short for a 4-year degree.

The problem with higher education is that it's not properly funded. Why exactly does Obama think tuition is going up?

EDIT: I apologize, you only come up $32,816 short.

Max pell grant: $5645/yr
Max federal loans: $45,000 (it varies based on year, but this would be total for 4 years)
Cost of attending the CA state uni I went to: $25,099/yr (using their estimates for living expenses, which seem pretty low to me)

First, universities have endowments specifically to make up for that gap. Taking the uni sticker price and subtracting a Pell Grant or a Stafford Loan doesn't give you the *true* typical price, unless you're from a six figure family. This is the advantage to attending a large research uni. They'll have way more money to throw to bring down that price.

Also, outside of California and maaaaybe Texas, I don't think there is a compelling argument that tuition prices are high because the government isn't giving them *enough* money.

I'm not really up to date on education policy, but does this plan address what has caused college costs to balloon in the last few decades and does it take any steps to get that ballooning under control?

Not directly. This idea is primarily to empower prospective students to make better decisions about where to spend their college investment money, and ideally, to help provide a downward market pressure on prices.

 

[galdre]

First, universities have endowments specifically to make up for that gap. Taking the uni sticker price and subtracting a Pell Grant or a Stafford Loan doesn't give you the *true* typical price, unless you're from a six figure family. This is the advantage to attending a large research uni. They'll have way more money to throw to bring down that price.

Yes, but getting into the private schools with the endowments is not easy, and the money they have is not available for everyone (they tend to give it to only a few to appear generous). Students, and their parents, are going into a lot of debt precisely because there is not enough money available in grants, scholarships, etc.

Also, outside of California and maaaaybe Texas, I don't think there is a compelling argument that tuition prices are high because the government isn't giving them *enough* money.

The cut in public funding of unviersities is nation-wide. Perhaps other states give more, but student debt is still a problem, and we should not be burdening students with decades of debt to get a degree.

It seems to me that policy makers want to turn public universities into trade schools, where people are trained for specific jobs, but where humanities, arts, etc are largely absent. Those pursuits will still exist in the private schools of course. I guess we don't want, for example, historians from the working classes because they might have a different take on history.

 

[caketastydelish]

As usual, I pretty much agree with downtown.

The two most important things (in my opinion) are:

1) whether the people graduating are doing so without being buried in debt. Even if someone graduates from a first tier law school in the top 10% of their class and gets a job at a big law firm, that's worthless if they're buried in debt to the point that they can't even pay their returns and end up declaring bankruptcy (yes, this very thing has actually happened to a number of people)

2) the base salary for people graduating from those universities. Even if a degree is flat out free, if it gets you no job it wasn't worth the mere time it took to earn it.

graduation rates mostly come down to whether the particular student is doing their studies like an adult, or partying and haven't grown up. In other words, just because a lot of people flunk out from any given university does not mean the university is bad... if a student wants to waste their time that's their problem. And I would rather see people that don't take their studies seriously flunk out than graduate because the classes are too easy.

 

[downtown]

Yes, but getting into the private schools with the endowments is not easy, and the money they have is not available for everyone (they tend to give it to only a few to appear generous). Students, and their parents, are going into a lot of debt precisely because there is not enough money available in grants, scholarships, etc.

But just about every state has at least one public school with a huge endowment. I played around with UCLA's financial aid calculator...for a family that makes 75K a year, with zero scholarships, a Cali resident's typical "actual" price for a year (living ON campus) is less than 13K, thanks to other aid outside of uncle sam. Some quick googling shows it would be about the same for UC-Davis.

If your family is making less than six figures and you are paying *full sticker price* for just about any top 150 public school, I feel like your paperwork was filled out incorrectly.

Now, that doesn't mean it's *cheap*.

graduation rates mostly come down to whether the particular student is doing their studies like an adult, or partying and haven't grown up. In other words, just because a lot of people flunk out from any given university does not mean the university is bad... if a student wants to waste their time that's their problem. And I would rather see people that don't take their studies seriously flunk out than graduate because the classes are too easy.

Well, I'm so sure that's true either. The last time I talked to former Ohio State president Gordon Gee, and the subject of college dropouts came out, he said it typically happens for two reasons (I swear I read this in the Chronicle of Higher Ed, since the Gates Foundation did a study on this).

The first is academic preparedness. Particularly for schools with more open enrollment policies, some students arrive on campus unable to do college level work. Rather than hustle through the remedial necessary, many decide to simply drop out. That's something a school *can* control. You should probably not accept students who can't do the work, unless you're a community college.

The second is financial. Those who are working their way through college may find that work (or family) obligations make it difficult to schedule classes (or find time to study) around their work schedules. I actually seriously contemplated dropping out my senior year, when I was working about 40 hours a week. This could be combated by either providing more jobs on campus, removing Gen Ed requirements, or making school cheaper.

I think the "partying bro" stereotype is probably exaggerated, or at least an incomplete picture.

I'm not necisarrily convinced that the Govt handing a big check over to a university can fix either of those problems. I'm honestly not sure how to do it. The demand for a college degree isn't going down anytime soon, and the rush to invest in expensive, physical infrastructure projects probably isn't going to die down soon either. I imagine the problem needs to be addressed with the banks and financial services firms.

 

[Zelig]

My plan to fix university education:

1. Ban endowments.
2. Zero government funding of schools.
3. Move the entirety of the money saved from 1 & 2 to merit-based scholarships.

 

[galdre]

But just about every state has at least one public school with a huge endowment. I played around with UCLA's financial aid calculator...for a family that makes 75K a year, with zero scholarships, a Cali resident's typical "actual" price for a year (living ON campus) is less than 13K, thanks to other aid outside of uncle sam. Some quick googling shows it would be about the same for UC-Davis.

If your family is making less than six figures and you are paying *full sticker price* for just about any top 150 public school, I feel like your paperwork was filled out incorrectly.

Now, that doesn't mean it's *cheap*.

The problem I ran into, and other students in my position run into, is when you have no support (my parents gave $0 towards my university education). I needed to work, but working reduces financial aid (and completely disqualified me for federal aid, despite the fact that I was making very little). $13k is an insurmountable amount when working reduces your aid, instead of allowing you to pay that $13k.