Official Poll/Discussion on Renaming IOT Sub Forum

[Thlayli]

As a self-described member of the 'NESing old guard," I'm certainly not elitist. I have SOME standards; I like to run realistic games. I frown on typos in orders and poorly thought out strategies. I don't think that Northern European colonialism is the be all and end all of global history.

But elitist? My games are, and always will be, open to IOTers of any ability level, as long as they're willing to try. What I don't appreciate is people interpreting my critiques as "oh he's an elitist!!!" In reality, I'm just trying to improve the quality of forum games. Is that such a crime? I think the same is true of a lot of other NESers who might come across as abrasive, when in reality they might just be frustrated with the situation. Talking with any of the people you think are jerks personally, you'll realize they aren't. I mean, we don't need to demonize each other, we're all people just trying to have fun.

Anyhow, my current TL was started on a Steam conversation with SK, an IOTer, so that should put that matter to rest. IOTers will always be welcome in anything I do. If you talk to individual NESers, you'll see that we are by and large compassionate, creative, and thoughtful people. We are interested in having fun the same as you, we're just trying to maximize our enjoyment of the hobby by creating immersive and realistic worlds and holding ourselves to high standards.

Pushing people to improve is NOT elitism. Pushing for higher standards is NOT elitism. NES and IOT will always be collaborative hobbies.

 

[Luckymoose]

Don't bother, Thlayli. You're better off shooting the horse than dragging it to the metaphorical water.
Moderator Action: This will not be tolerated in this thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please return to the topic of whether this forum needs to be renamed or not.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[thomas.berubeg]

No such evidence exists. The original issues with merger were less to do with IOT, and more to do with democracy (not letting one community outweight another), inclusivity rules changing the size, scope, and nature of games, and the hostile nature some individuals expressed about how they see things being run, not to mention staff issues. There has never been a point in time where anyone I know in NES, including myself, would say "no" to playing in a game or letting an IOTer join a game with them. The slander against me, in particular, is unfounded, as I've probably spent more time than most in this community outreaching to newer players and actively helping them. Of course, people who don't know me can judge me by certain posts or out of context conversations, but that doesn't change the facts, and anyone who does know me (BirdJaguar included, as he's said) knows such intolerance and "elitism" is based on nothing.

I agree that lucky has always been willing to reach out, collaborate with, and help people who were willing to do so. (Not people for whom collaborating means "I have a vision, and that is what everyone has to conform to, but real collaboration.)

On the other hand, the NESing community does (did) have its share of elitist people, I always found that those people were not really active in the community beyond bemoaning lost days, and presenting extremely complex rulesets and never actually running anything.


Edit:

Pushing people to improve is NOT elitism. Pushing for higher standards is NOT elitism. NES and IOT will always be collaborative hobbies.

This is the best message, I think.

 

[GenMarshall]

No merger, no rename. Simple as that. We can talk about changing our name once it happens.

This.

Unless eather the merge happens or NES gets archived. No renaming at this point in time.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I can understand about the hesitance to renaming in regards a need to ensure this is a two way process. We need to take consideration that a rename was set for the unofficial merge of the two communities but at the same time that a official merge would ensure a feeling of dual harmony.

As for the talks about elitism: high standards are not elitist but what is, however, is the foolish "us vs them" focuses I have witnessed, a hostility which can only harm these forum gaming environments. We need to consider ways to keep the feelings of hostility over, what are and what will still be, forum games from discouraging player participation. Petty feuds should be considered as a hindrance to our communities.


Speaking of keeping things in consideration.

Spoiler support forum rename thread notice :

Note to a certain poster: should be a clue of the playful nature of a certain post. Accusing someone of ideological railroading and focusing on war because of such a post is quite a comedic in itself. The should be a notion of the comedic, a reference to a suggestion Thor made.

 

[Angst]

Open question.

What good names would be proper for this forum?

Forget anything NESers would say about NESing's relevance or merger. Just for the IOT forum itself, what good names would fit IOT better than the IOT monicker?

Personally I am in agreement with those that say that the IOT name has trouble communicating what the forum is about.

A new name should be evocative and charming, it should not be a joke (Armchair empires is, imo, a silly name and will not remain funny or relevant in a year or so), and it should communicate that the IOT forum is about a) constructing worlds b) roleplaying the zeitgeists of communities throughout history c) conquering and "winning", for those that care about that d) strategizing correctly to perform better than your opposition d) crafting evocative and exotic cultures, societies, religions, and so on masterfully and immersibly e) writing stories communaly f) it should fit both province/hard rules games and soft rules games g) and so on and so on. Preferably the new forum name should be two to three words, no more than that.

To me, "Worldbuilding games" pretty much covers what this subforum is trying to do. It's a little bland, but it perfectly communicates to a forum browser what you are doing in the forum. It was suggested by some IOTer some time ago, dunno which. But I'd like to hear the opinions of older IOT veterans, I'm just a migrant.

 

[Ailedhoo]

World Building Games.

WBG

Not ideal but it might make a good start.

There is Narrative Strategy Games too with NSG.

Still a middle vowel or one which can combine with other two letters of the acronym could benefit in allowing name construction. Of course this is but a minor consideration and should be secondary to any names which accurately describe the games posted here. Henceforth WBG will make do for now as a name to support.

 

[JohannaK]

I have decided I am for a rename such as Worldbuilding Games, while people can still include IOT or NES or NESIOT in the titles of their games.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

Nevermind.

 

[Nuka-sama]

This.

Unless eather the merge happens or NES gets archived. No renaming at this point in time.

While the mods seem unlikely to merge NES and IOT (I don't know what their stance is on archiving it), one mod indicated that one option that has floated around is the idea of merging certain NES threads into IOT by consent of the thread starter. I don't know if it would have any bearing for you or others, but I would be more than willing to merge my old NESes into IOT if that would help display my sincerity to this community?

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

The point isn't proving individual goodwill from this or that user; in fact it has nothing to do with user loyalty at all: as per the recent reorganization of Forum Games, it's a sense of bureaucratic indignation that a dead forum gets to persist, against site precedent, while the active one gets overhauled.

...Come to think of it, if keeping the chronology intact is such a concern, we could pull another page from that shuffle and stick a [NES] prefix on the threads before moving the forum.

I know the voices you are talking about. As abrasive as they are, please don't extrapolate them unto all of us.

Aye, I'd mused sticking a disclaimer in the post, but I figured 99% of the people reading it knew what I meant and wouldn't take it personally. After all, if this is where you've been hanging out since DYOS, I gotta keep you on-side!

 

[Nuka-sama]

This is a question for the mods then: considering that most threads in NES have been inactive (aside from Thlayli and Necros), and for the fact that Thlayli has recently indicated he'd be open to hosting his game in a renamed IOT forum, would the mods consider archiving the old Never Ending Stories forum?

 

[leif erikson]

This is a question for the mods then: considering that most threads in NES have been inactive (aside from Thlayli and Necros), and for the fact that Thlayli has recently indicated he'd be open to hosting his game in a renamed IOT forum, would the mods consider archiving the old Never Ending Stories forum?

To answer your question, we are not actively considering archiving the NES forum.

This thread is not about that. It is about whether this community wants to rename their forum. Can we please come back to that subject?

 

[Angst]

Aye, I'd mused sticking a disclaimer in the post, but I figured 99% of the people reading it knew what I meant and wouldn't take it personally. After all, if this is where you've been hanging out since DYOS, I gotta keep you on-side!

Honestly I was afraid you'd relate me with 'the others' based on my latest participations in dyos. I'm so happy that's not the case. Love you man.

 

[Thlayli]

So far, it looks like the roughly even split on the issue is a difficult outcome for everyone. I wonder what level of majority would be required for the mods to approve the rename process going forward? I doubt the current threshold will convince them unless the remaining undecideds swing heavily in favor of the rename.

Some interesting analysis of the data: It looks like most of the ex-NESer exiles are more heavily in favor of the rename, though there are a few NESers like Luckymoose and EQandcivfanatic that oppose the rename. Conversely, most of the 'core' IOTers who didn't have much interaction with NES before the moderation/Frontier crisis voted against the rename, although there are some significant exceptions (Kaiser, Ninja, Ailed etc.) who voted in favor.

Of course, the significant drop in the numbers voting compared to the Site Feedback polls of Spring 2015 are indicative of more systemic population decline issues, including perhaps the still-persistent fallout from the NESer exodus.

 

[Nuka-sama]

Pretty sure Kaiser had played in a few Neses hasn't he?

 

[Luckymoose]

The point isn't proving individual goodwill from this or that user; in fact it has nothing to do with user loyalty at all: as per the recent reorganization of Forum Games, it's a sense of bureaucratic indignation that a dead forum gets to persist, against site precedent, while the active one gets overhauled.

I think it is site precedent to allow dead or slow subforums to survive. How else would half of them exist?

 

[Angst]

Is it possible to do this IOT renaming discussion without talking about NESing at all? I'd like to think so...

 

[Nuka-sama]

Mm. Back to the subject at hand:

Aside from a renaming for cultural inclusion purposes, there is definitely an argument for a rename for the purpose of outreach. With our community roughly around 30-40 active people, we are definitely a vibrant community but by no means should we ignore continued expansion. In light of the uptick of quality games both being played and in progress of being made, I think we have the content here to start actively reaching out to other forums for new players. Personally as a mod, I enjoy when I have plenty of players, and for every player that comes here, there's a chance that one day they might become a mod too, giving us all more games to enjoy. The current name and description especially is not the best for giving newcomers an idea of what they're getting into.

Just an added thought to be put in the mix