Oil prices rising

[Pikachu]

And how do these cars get electricity?

This is a bit too naive Pikachu!

Electricity is mostly produced from coal, hydropower or nuclear power. The prize of those resourses are not directly dependent on the oil prize.

Large power plants are also a lot more efficient than small motors, so even if we used oil to produce electricity, electric cars would use less oil than petrol cars. The cost of manufacuring the electrisity would might make it more expencive though, but we don't use expensive oil to produce electricity anyway.

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

Electric cars are not that good. As far as I know the engines don't make more than 100 horse powers - tops! They're more likely to make about 50, 60.

I think for the near future we can expect hybrid cars using gas - real gas. It's not that expensive and any engine can use gas instead of oil-based fuel - with some modifications.

The next step is a hydrogen-based fuel engine. But this requires a gas-station-net that provides us with hydrogen-based fuel and THAT will cost A LOT and will therefore need a lot of time.

But for that it's not bad enough, yet.

 

[Stapel]

Electricity is mostly produced from coal, hydropower or nuclear power. The prize of those resourses are not directly dependent on the oil prize.

Most electricity here is produce from gas (oil dependent, just as coal is).

Large power plants are also a lot more efficient than small motors, so even if we used oil to produce electricity, electric cars would use less oil than petrol cars. The cost of manufacuring the electrisity would might make it more expencive though, but we don't use expensive oil to produce electricity anyway.

We do....
Anyway, there is a huge loss of efficiency, when turning oil or gas into electricity first. If we use oil to produce electricity, electric cars would use more oil than petrol cars.
did you make that just up, it would be less? That is simply not true.

 

[warmonger]

Stapel - the main advantage of electric cars is that the energy source is a lot more varable. Electricity can be generated by fossil fuels (oil, coal or gas), nuclear reaction, water (either macro scale say 3 gorges, or micro scale say Rhine river power plants in Swiss, Germay and France), wind, solar, methane from compost as in Basel, and many more that I can't recall and heaps that have yet to be dreamed of. (My personal favourite is harnessing the power of lightening - not yet possible but someday maybe).

So with all these alternatives you are not tied to one energy source as we currently are with oil.

 

[Akka]

Electric cars are not that good. As far as I know the engines don't make more than 100 horse powers - tops! They're more likely to make about 50, 60.

And ?
Actually, many cars have about 40 to 60 in horsepower. Except to show off, when do you NEED more than that ?

 

[Stapel]

Stapel - the main advantage of electric cars is that the energy source is a lot more varable. Electricity can be generated by fossil fuels (oil, coal or gas), nuclear reaction, water (either macro scale say 3 gorges, or micro scale say Rhine river power plants in Swiss, Germay and France), wind, solar, methane from compost as in Basel, and many more that I can't recall and heaps that have yet to be dreamed of. (My personal favourite is harnessing the power of lightening - not yet possible but someday maybe).

So with all these alternatives you are not tied to one energy source as we currently are with oil.

So what?

At the moment other sources become cheaper than oil (because oil prices rise), economy will immediately adopt it!
Today, driving an electrical car is expensive!

 

[Stapel]

And ?
Actually, many cars have about 40 to 60 in horsepower. Except to show off, when do you NEED more than that ?

Watch out Akka. This is a very dangerous statement !

 

[Akka]

Truth is dangerous

 

[Ben E Gas]

Hit $44.34 today.

 

[Pikachu]

Electric cars are not that good. As far as I know the engines don't make more than 100 horse powers - tops! They're more likely to make about 50, 60.

For short trips electric cars are good enough. "Think" for example is an electric car with maximum speed of 90 km/h and a range of 85 km. For short trips you don’t need more than that.

Most electricity here is produce from gas (oil dependent, just as coal is).

Sorry, I should have included natural gas in my list. Coal and natural gas are fossil fuels, but they are not oil. Oil is a lot more expensive! The only cases oil is used to make electricity is in places without access to the power grid and as a backup solution in places where external electricity is not reliable enough. Oil is only used in very small and local power plants.

Anyway, there is a huge loss of efficiency, when turning oil or gas into electricity first. If we use oil to produce electricity, electric cars would use more oil than petrol cars.
did you make that just up, it would be less? That is simply not true.

A thermal power plant have an energy efficiency of about 50%, a typical car engine has efficiency less than 25%. An electric engine has an efficiency of about 90%. Add minor losses in the batteries and you end up with a total efficiency for the electric car on about 40% which is about twice as efficient as most petrol cars.

So what?

At the moment other sources become cheaper than oil (because oil prices rise), economy will immediately adopt it!
Today, driving an electrical car is expensive!

Expensive? With the current electricity prize in Norway an electric car can drive about 50 km for one Euro. Does your car drive cheaper than that?

 

[Zeekater]

Pickachu has a point, car motors are very inefficient
Fuel cells have a theoretical efficiency of 100%, so that seems like the way to go in the future IMO

 

[Mattaba]

More about "peak oil" on this website : http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net
a lot of scary things on this website, although I think this guy is exaggerating it a bit and underestimating human inventiveness.

 

[romelus]

time to consider a long position in stocks in nuclear energy companies and perhaps give petro one last ride

i think it's quite telling how BP's new commercials tout the new line, "beyond petroleum"

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Well, its at 42.83 at the moment. Who ever thought 42.83 for oil would be a 'positive' development.

Crude Oil Falls From Record After Yukos Allowed to Access Funds

Aug. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil futures in New York and London fell from record highs after OAO Yukos Oil Co., Russia's largest oil exporter, said it was given access to accounts needed for oil production and exports.

Officials who are collecting $3.4 billion in back taxes and fines told Yukos that its accounts used to fund operations are available, the company said. Oil was also pulled lower by gasoline after the Energy Department said that supplies of the fuel rose. OPEC said it was concerned about high prices and willing to use its 1.5 million barrels of spare capacity.

``The Yukos news gives us the impression that Russian supplies are not going to be disrupted,'' said Ed Silliere, vice president of risk management at Energy Merchant LLC in New York. The inventory statistics started the price decline ``and then the statements from OPEC that they have excess capacity and are going to use it made prices fall further.''

In other words, the price will head down for maybe a week or two before the remaining problems of supply and demand, and terrorism take center stage again.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Nope. What a nonsense! Trains are 4 times as expensive as cars! At best trians use less fuel, but overall it is very expensive.
Driving a car costs about the same (here) as buying a train ticket, (we are talking about kilometers). The trainticket it about 50% subsidised.

In Canada, a city of a million takes up the same area as a city of several million in Europe. The key is to design the train-system well in the first place. Thus, it is much cheaper to pay a $1.50 to travel all the way across town, then it is to sit in traffic. At least on Calgary's train system.

Come on really, a train with 150 people on it, including its tracks, is cheaper than buying 100 North American-sized vehicles, and the corresponding road (which also uses much more space than a train line).

You are way off in Fiatland

 

[ManOfMiracles]

I used to work for a professor of metals casting who was brainstorming how to build a ceramic heat sink to make the internal combustion engine more efficient. He stopped when I pointed out how much more energy would be required to move the vehicle with this huge ceramic-cased engine and how much more road damage would be caused by the excess weight. It was an interesting line of thought though.

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

Actually, many cars have about 40 to 60 in horsepower. Except to show off, when do you NEED more than that ?

Everytime you drive up a hill - listen to your 50 horsepower engine then; it's crying its lungs out and is still decelerating...100 - 150 horsepower should be there.
Also - don't just think about small cars. What about a family car with a big trunk (? is that the word)? You can't drive a big VW Passat or Opel Astra Caravan with 50 horsepowers...

For short trips electric cars are good enough. "Think" for example is an electric car with maximum speed of 90 km/h and a range of 85 km. For short trips you don’t need more than that.

That's an extremly short trip and extremly slow. An electric car should at least be able to get to 140 / 150 km/h, because on a highway you should be able to drive with a travel speed of 120 km/h without a crying engine.
And a range of 85 km?? That's the distance I've to drive to my work location no. 1 and back home (~ 80 km). And it's not half the distance I've to drive to my work location no. 2 and back home (~ 200 km). You'd spend more time "filling up" than driving, 'cause it takes more time to reload an electric engine than fill up your fuel tank.

This spec's show a clear superiority of fuel-engine cars. Any competitor engine must be able to catch up with that or it won't survive on the market. If it's electric, or hydrogen or whatever: 100 - 150 horsepowers and a range of 600 km are a "must", otherwise it would be just an engine for mini-cars in big cities.

 

[Stapel]

Expensive? With the current electricity prize in Norway an electric car can drive about 50 km for one Euro. Does your car drive cheaper than that?

If this is so, the problem is solved, isn't it?

Trust me, if oil prices rise to 100 dollars per barrel, the development of electrical cars will rise enormously!

 

[Stapel]

In Canada, a city of a million takes up the same area as a city of several million in Europe. The key is to design the train-system well in the first place. Thus, it is much cheaper to pay a $1.50 to travel all the way across town, then it is to sit in traffic. At least on Calgary's train system.

Come on really, a train with 150 people on it, including its tracks, is cheaper than buying 100 North American-sized vehicles, and the corresponding road (which also uses much more space than a train line).

You are way off in Fiatland

My FIAT never rides without anyone inside it. Think about that. A train rides all day, full or empty.

Of course, you have a valid point. In cities, there usually is no possibilty to use a car, as it would take hours. An efficient train system is the only option.

But, a train is expensive! Try to figure out how much a 150 people train costs! You migth be surprised. And not only the train it self. Keeping it runnig costs an afwul lot of money. You need lots of personel!

I don't know much about Yvonne-van-Gennip-city, but here trains are simply never ever not no way profitable. They are sponsored like hell by tax money. I am not saying this is per se bad, but when a sponsored train ticket from The Hague to Amsterdam still costs 9 euros, and a ride in a cheap 2nd car cost about the same, but is including lots of tax, we can safely conclude that public transportation is more expensive.

 

[crystal]

My FIAT never rides without anyone inside it. Think about that. A train rides all day, full or empty.

A car never rides without a driver inside it. Think about that.

But, a train is expensive! Try to figure out how much a 150 people train costs! You migth be surprised. And not only the train it self. Keeping it runnig costs an afwul lot of money. You need lots of personel!

But, SUVs are expensive! Try to figure out how much labor, energy and resources we need to maintain the roads (and the cars too) for 150 SUV drivers!