Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
The second sentence really only follows from the first if you didn't actually understand the point that Amadeus was making.
Olso, Norway, hit by explosions
- Thread starter Agent Cooper
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Well, from what I understood, Amadeus was saying that if Muslim extremists are right-wing, they would identify with the Girondins or other moderate royalists in the French Revolution. While they in reality wouldn't identify with anyone. Therefore, saying they are right wing in the sense westerners use that term is wrong. Correct me if my interpretation is wrong, haven't been asleep much in the past couple of days.
Singularity
Infinite Density
Just because he spent nine years writing a 1500 page long manifest doesn't mean his damning actions last friday where political. There's a lot of doubt if he's clinically insane. But there is very little doubt that he's totally without even the tiniest shred of empathy for other humans. This is more scary and is the one thing we can't defend against. We can't defend againts people who lack the fine instrumentation that makes them work in the complicate social dance that is modern civilization. It's easier to blame his percieved political shortcomings or try to defend his political rights than to start investigating how common such broken individuals are in modern society and more importantly how capable they are to follow through on whatever convictions that fuels their lack of recognizeable human traits. Be it religious, political or basic philosophy over the state of humanity.
A norwegian writer, Roy Jacobsen, said it well when he commented on our foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støhre's words "The Norway that will emerge from this crisis will be a recognizeable Norway":
"Everything points to the fact that he will be correct(Gahr Støhre). Presicely because in our hearts we know that what we've all witnessed is not the symptoms of a diseased society, but the disastrous results of a broken mind - and finally: a living democracy's ability to withstand such a disaster. That way the perpetrator will loose on all fronts. " Source(in norwegian)
MilesGregarius
Half-baked Renegade
Whether or not the man is insane, his actions were indusputably political. Perhaps "delusionally political", "sociopathically political", even "pyschopathically political", but political nonetheless.
aelf
Ashen One
Um, doesn't seem to stop you from discussing the politics of security in Norway. Or are you under the impression that there are some political topics that are 'clean' while others are 'dirty'?
Singularity
Infinite Density
I react to actual events, questioning the responce of the police and the potential fault of their mandate and/or equipment and resources to fulfill their mandate. The worst ideological discourse in this thread is hypothesis or blatant speculation, and often ends up straying from the original discourse in a tet-a-tet between a few forum members.
Hope you can see the difference Aelf.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
I agree with Miles, Aelf and Arwon. Whatever his own mental state, the perpetrator quite explicitly posed this incident as a political attack. Even if the wider implications are limited- and to be frank, I think that the comments you quote are as speculative as any other, merely optimistic (as if a government minister would be permitted a pessimistic reaction!)- there is still a very pertinent discussion as to the cultural-political atmosphere that lead to these attacks, and what impact, however marginal, these attacks will have.
(Also, on a more pedantic note, the Girondins were moderate republicans, not royalists. They were, while lacking the more-or-less unified direction of the (at least early) Jacobins, firmly on the left.)
As I understood it, his point was that the right/left binary is a limited, essentially contextual measure, and cannot really be extended across cultural-political spheres with any ease. His reference to the National Assembly was intended to illustrate the very specific historical origins of the concept, and as the fallacy of assuming a universality to it; in this case, that Islamism does not compare with any particular European conception of the far-right, beyond being broadly reactionary.
(Also, on a more pedantic note, the Girondins were moderate republicans, not royalists. They were, while lacking the more-or-less unified direction of the (at least early) Jacobins, firmly on the left.)
Singularity
Infinite Density
Like I said in the post you replied to; I think the worst parts of the ideological discourse in this thread is hypothesis and fabrication. More so, I don't think this thread is the right home for such speculations, but for some reasons the moderators seem to ignore it. I'm not trying to backseat moderate this thread, but I'm imploring the people who don't care about the incidents and is more curious about discussing ideology and the manifesto of the perp to take it elsewhere. And hopefully to keep it "factual" to the actual dribble that the perpetrator put into his 1500 pages over the last nine years.
Thoughtful Thug
Deity
For those whom have read the manifesto, or have watched it on Youtube, I found this simple illustration of what maybe the reasoning behind the killings of non-muslim.
"Before beginning our Crusade, we must do our duty by decimating cultural Marxism" would seem to be a clear statement of exactly that, Thoughtful Thug.
I, for one, can't separate them.
I'd wager some others feel the same way.
Part of the horror is my identification with the victims and the society being attacked. It's an attack on a progressive political party and specifically on its young members, by someone who holds to a militant version of an obscene ideology and views them as an enemy worthy of being destroyed. They are like me, like my friends, and like many of the people I associate with (Greens and Labor members), and they were slaughtered for holding views similar to ours, for participating actively in their democracy, and for living in a very successful version of the society we are working towards building.
I, for one, can't separate them.
I'd wager some others feel the same way.
Part of the horror is my identification with the victims and the society being attacked. It's an attack on a progressive political party and specifically on its young members, by someone who holds to a militant version of an obscene ideology and views them as an enemy worthy of being destroyed. They are like me, like my friends, and like many of the people I associate with (Greens and Labor members), and they were slaughtered for holding views similar to ours, for participating actively in their democracy, and for living in a very successful version of the society we are working towards building.
Regardless how you feel about this man's actions, Norway is not a successful paradise many make it out to be. The fact that anyone would feel the need to attack them is evident of this, as well as a growing division and desire to change the country's direction - just look at the Progress Party's gains last election. Religious and cultural tensions are really quite high right now, and even many moderate politicians (Sarkozy, Merkel, David Cameron) believe multi-culturalism in Western Europe has failed. It isn't just wacko far right militants that agree with some of this murderer's reasoning.
Think of it this way. A square is a rectangle. Is a rectangle a square? Not necessarily. Likewise, a militant far right anti-Islamic terrorist is a Islam-critical right wing person. Is -vice versa-? Not necessarily.
Think of it this way. A square is a rectangle. Is a rectangle a square? Not necessarily. Likewise, a militant far right anti-Islamic terrorist is a Islam-critical right wing person. Is -vice versa-? Not necessarily.
Looks like we have identified a culture contributing to this failure.
Ah, so he believes that if he were to attack the Muslim community, it would garner more support... whereas if he were to attack the supporters of the Muslim community, it would reduce the support, thus making the Muslims vulnerable to attack (without the risk of strengthened support)?
Yeah, he thinks that bashing Muslims is counter productive, saying that
So to him, the people he perceives as being behind mass immigration are worse than the immigrants, which would explain his attacks on center of (Labor party) government and labor party youth camp. He says more about this on pages 1283-1284 of his document. Thank you, search function!
Singularity
Infinite Density
So, you think that Sarkozy, Merkel and David Cameron are enablers to this persons insane actions? And who said Norway was a successful paradise? I've lived here all my life, and if you had asked me last thursday I would not have made such a claim. And if you study the support of the progress party you will find that it goes up and down like a jo-jo on the surveys. And they've never been remotely close to actual power, not even as a potential coalition member.
The last part of your post about rectangles and squares flew straight over my head, sorry.
Singularity
Infinite Density
I'm a labor voter and personally know a lot of people who've been to Utøya in previous years(I'm not exactly a youth anymore). And a good friend of mine had an office a closest to the bomb blast in the government building. Luckily he was on a vacation like a lot of the other politicians and their staffs.
Our horror should however not turn into opinionated discourse unrelated to the incident or the perpetrator. It's properly bad taste in my opinion when you look at the actual event and the hundreds, if not thousands, directly afflicted by this unimaginable act of terror.
No, quite the opposite. I am saying that this guy took non-extreme Islam/multicultural-critical philosophies that are common throughout much of European political circles, and twisted them to something extreme. The second bit was a response to the person who posted above me.
The current, or at least pre-22/7 political trend, was one of support for more right wing politics.
Haha, sorry about that. I got into a ramble about how just because something specific belongs to a bigger grouping, doesn't make that bigger grouping responsible for whatever the "specific" thing does. Don't know if that is any better at explaining..
aelf
Ashen One
I think this is precisely how things might actually play out in this guy's favour more than most people seem to be currently expecting. Basically it goes as follows: "If someone did this, there must be something deeply wrong with our society. Maybe all the policies that he rants against have caused unnecessary tension in society. Hence, maybe the government didn't get it right with those policies. Maybe we need to re-evaluate them and the premises on which they are based. How about not taking in so many refugees and limiting immigration? That might allow us to consolidate or stabilise to prevent further tensions and acts of violence."
That's actually some people's position on multiculturalism and immigration with respect to growing anti-immigrant sentiment/xenophobia.
Moderator Action: We have limited resources and this thread grows quite fast. If people report problematic posts, that'll help us greatly.
Some politics discussion is allowed and some is not. Gun control, extreme right and such are pertinent topics. Using this as a platform for cheap shots to political opponents and unrelated topics aren't allowed.
What counts as cheap shot is a matter of judgement, but people are welcome to use their own faculties here. This isn't characteristic behaviour of a American republican for example, which you can find out by noticing that these kind of things aren't everyday occurrence there either.
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