Orbis 0.30 workshop

[Kalina]

Are Airships even needed ? Settlements can build units and you can always leave one ''city slot'' open. But making Airship available for other civs (Amurites maybe ? or maybe just regular unit buildable after Sorcery and lategame ship tech?) is great idea ! I'd prefere them to be national (or even 2 per civ only), extremely expensive and powerful

 

[arkham4269]

Are Airships even needed ? Settlements can build units and you can always leave one ''city slot'' open. But making Airship available for other civs (Amurites maybe ? or maybe just regular unit buildable after Sorcery and lategame ship tech?) is great idea ! I'd prefere them to be national (or even 2 per civ only), extremely expensive and powerful

That's what I thought. I haven't played the Kuriotates lately but I seemed to recall that settlements can build units but the current Civlopedia (which I'm working on right now but on units) still says settlements can't build units.

Personally as much as I like having air units as the Mechanos, them having the only ones doesn't really make sense. I mean bombing ground units has always been a great way to mess up morale on the ground.

I think that the flying promotion should make it such that ground units can't attack them at all unless they fall under these conditions.
* Are an archery unit. Not sure if there is a promotion that shows this but I would think it would be doable.
* Are a siege unit. I would think that the Svaltalfar ballista would be really good at this.
* Are a arcane unit in the sense that spells would work.

However it would me a bit of work to make sure that every race had access to some sort of flying units. However with a bit of thought, I don't think it's that hard.
The Luirchirp have gargoyles already and while they don't have the flying promotion now, well they do have wings.
The Khazad could build ornithopters

I'm sure some race could use hawkmen (Elohim) and others could build versions of flying boats. I think these would be smaller than their sea version in cargo size and not be as strong. That way you still have a reason to build regular ships.

Of course this sets the stage for flying beasts like the griffins or drakes (small dragons) that would be harder to kill since you'd be more limited in which units you could attack them with.

 

[Imuratep]

But no undead, right?
So I think we should go with something mutated or octopus/human hybrid, with powerfull mind influencing abilities.
OO would have lunatics, priests (with water walking added to the list of spells, by the way I think of allowing all disciples to cast a spell or two) and a new unit, an upgrade of the above.
What do you think?

I really like that idea. Would do a good job at differentiating the Overlords from AV. You could keep the old units though by a clever trick that enhances the flavor of the religion: At Message from the Deep disciple units can summon illusions of drowns, at fanaticism they can summon illusions of stygian guards and at divine essence they can summon a permanent really strong illusion that is an image of the Old Ones that passes the crazed/enraged promotions to units it fights. In most Lovecraftian stories the protagonists are not killed by the horrors they face. Instead they become insane. The illusions would represent the nightmares the opponents have when they face the power of the Old Ones. Additionally it would enable completely different strategies and the revelation spell would finally be useful.

 

[Pazyryk]

So there is a big rift in OO. Hemah, Asylums & Lunatics fit the falvour perfectly. Drown, stygian guards, and to lesser extent saverous do not. I want to remove that rift and make OO really different in spirit from AV.

They should stand out, yes. But I think it would be a mistake to make everything "fit" too neatly, so that AV only get demons, OO only have madness/lunacy, etc. It's those weird blurrings between categories and asymmetries that make FFH stand out so much. Is Basium really good? Are all demons evil? What are those OO really about, anyway? If you aim to answer the last question, I'm afraid you might diminish OO.

 

[Ahwaric]

Are Airships even needed ? Settlements can build units and you can always leave one ''city slot'' open.

The current airships, as well as jewelers & tailors are a leftover from FfH where settlements are next to useless. I think I will give kurios normal galleons in 0.30, as they do not really need them.
But I like the flavour of flying ships, so I think some should be added as a separate flying ship. Maybe requiring enchantment or air mana? With small cargo and not that strong, possibly stronger in ranged combat (bomb missions?)

I think that the flying promotion should make it such that ground units can't attack them at all unless they fall under these conditions.
* Are an archery unit. Not sure if there is a promotion that shows this but I would think it would be doable.
* Are a siege unit. I would think that the Svaltalfar ballista would be really good at this.
* Are a arcane unit in the sense that spells would work.

The main problem is that Civ IV was not designed to have real flying units. And that is a real design problem. Currently, only allied (and invisible) units can share the tile. If there is an enemy unit, there is no way you can enter. And that would open a space for exploits - ie. a line of flying ships that protect your entire empire because your enemy does not have strong archers, and can't attack or share a tile occupied by flying unit. And that is just one of the problems.
So, Kael decided to go the helicopter route and I think it was a good choice, or at least the simples one. You can always assume that the unit has to land sometimes to let it restock, rest or the crew just needs to pee I agree, there should be a way to fly over enemy units, but we encounter the same problema as above - sharing a tile with enemy unit, and currently I have no idea how to change that. So all flying units will stay as they are, at least for now.

You could keep the old units though by a clever trick that enhances the flavor of the religion: [...]he illusions would represent the nightmares the opponents have when they face the power of the Old Ones. Additionally it would enable completely different strategies and the revelation spell would finally be useful.

Interesting idea. I think summoning an ilusion might be a good idea, but I will probably limit it to just one - esus is the master of deception and we should tread carefully in this domain.

They should stand out, yes. But I think it would be a mistake to make everything "fit" too neatly, so that AV only get demons, OO only have madness/lunacy, etc. It's those weird blurrings between categories and asymmetries that make FFH stand out so much. Is Basium really good? Are all demons evil? What are those OO really about, anyway? If you aim to answer the last question, I'm afraid you might diminish OO.

I agree, and I do not want to strictly limit things. But for me, drown & stygians are like from a different story. Plus I want the religion to be chaotic, but not necessarly evil (and drown & stygian guards currently clearly are)

So, I think I have a general idea what will I change:

• drowns removed
• lunatics avaliable at message from the deep, reduced to strength 4/4, but with random promotions gained every turn - it might be blitz, +3 to attack strength, or maybe even held (really bad dreams). Should they be still crazied, or should I include enraged to list of possible promotions gained?
• lunatics then can upgrade to priests of overlords, berserkers, immortals & redone stygian guards
• sygian guards are no longer undead or demons, start with mutated (should they retain their initial race?) and maybe some extra abilities (ideas?), plus will pass enraged (temporary crazied?) promotion in combat (just as the diseased is passed)
• OO priests can cast water walking
• illusion summon passing insanity/insanity spell for OO priests

Also:
disciples of all religions get to cast one or two spells - be it sanctify for good ones, and some kind of blight for evil... Plus a religion special (water walking or some low level chaos spell? I think dance of blades should be changed to something more chaotic BTW)

Also, something I wanted to ask for a long time. Should I make Korrina agnostic? There is no sense that she can follow other religions and Publius does not. It can be even argued (but I agree, it is hard to do) that the rise empereor does not need to be agnostic. So, all or none?

 

[Kalina]

The current airships, as well as jewelers & tailors are a leftover from FfH where settlements are next to useless. I think I will give kurios normal galleons in 0.30, as they do not really need them.
But I like the flavour of flying ships, so I think some should be added as a separate flying ship. Maybe requiring enchantment or air mana? With small cargo and not that strong, possibly stronger in ranged combat (bomb missions?)

GREAT idea I always loved airships (Halruaan in FR, Lyrandar in Eberron). I agree they should have small cargo and should be rather fragile, but quick. How about Amurites UU Airship casting fireballs ?

So, I think I have a general idea what will I change:

• drowns removed
• lunatics avaliable at message from the deep, reduced to strength 4/4, but with random promotions gained every turn - it might be blitz, +3 to attack strength, or maybe even held (really bad dreams). Should they be still crazied, or should I include enraged to list of possible promotions gained?
• lunatics then can upgrade to priests of overlords, berserkers, immortals & redone stygian guards
• sygian guards are no longer undead or demons, start with mutated (should they retain their initial race?) and maybe some extra abilities (ideas?), plus will pass enraged (temporary crazied?) promotion in combat (just as the diseased is passed)
• OO priests can cast water walking
• illusion summon passing insanity/insanity spell for OO priests

Crazied units are annoying, at least to me, as they require lots of micromanaging. Random promotions sounds like a lot better way to show their unreliability. Btw, how about sacrificing lunatic at asylums for extra research ?
While demon race (they don't have it right now ? they are just undead) is fine way to show they are possesed by evil spirits, currently it gives bonuses in broken lands/fields of perdition and other not fitting things. Maybe you should consider another promotion (possesed ?) which grants +10% in coast/ocean tiles, immune to unholy damage and fear, -25% to holy damage ?

Also:
disciples of all religions get to cast one or two spells - be it sanctify for good ones, and some kind of blight for evil... Plus a religion special (water walking or some low level chaos spell? I think dance of blades should be changed to something more chaotic BTW)

Maybe something like one-turn mutate ? Like granting one promotion for one turn, with 50% chance for good promotion (combat I, resist, drill I, haste, blur, etc) 30% for great but situational promotion (shock/cover/formation II, Woodsman/Guerilla II, City Raider II, etc) and 20% for bad promotion (weak, slow, plagued, winded, etc). This way it would be still useful low level buff spell but more chaotic. It's similar to Mutate but earlier, less risky (so you can cast it on valuable units) and you can use it on top of Mutate, so it's useful even in later game.

Also, something I wanted to ask for a long time. Should I make Korrina agnostic? There is no sense that she can follow other religions and Publius does not. It can be even argued (but I agree, it is hard to do) that the rise empereor does not need to be agnostic. So, all or none?

I don't like agnostic civs (limiting number of choices and options) but I think Scions should be left agnostic. They have their own line of disciple units and temple, so they have religion in everything but name.

 

[arkham4269]

But I like the flavor of flying ships, so I think some should be added as a separate flying ship. Maybe requiring enchantment or air mana? With small cargo and not that strong, possibly stronger in ranged combat (bomb missions?)

Well that's what I was thinking, bombing missions. In this I don't think it goes against the 'helicopter' problem stated below. As you said, most have to land a bit. I have no problem with that. I would think as a flying unit attacks a ground unit, it either wins or dies like a normal unit. Normal defensive strikes tend to be either from the unit being attacked or archery type units anyway.

Bombing units, on the other hand, could stay in cities or perhaps also operate out of forts. My feeling is that the only way to destroy them would be to have units with the flying promotion could have access to the interdict mission. Plus I would think that they would be (if this is possible w/bombing missions) be able to get hit by defensive strikes since these aren't B-17's bombing from 10,000 feet.

I'm thinking that the bombers could be ornithopers for the Dwarves, dirigibles for the Mechanos and then mostly flying ships for the rest. However, those who have read the Temeraire series http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temeraire_%28series%29 have seen dragons (smallish ones) used in the 'helicopter' role as well as the bomber role.

Actually I think using dragons (or call them drakes or wyverns (although wyverns only have back legs)) as 'airships' might be interesting since you could have then need animal mastery techs as well as navigation type techs. Perhaps instead of an airport, those races would have Dragon Covert and those Civs using dirigibles or ornithopters would have airfields. I would think you would need to have these buildings to build the units, similar to a hippodrome.

Of course talking about the flying promotion, should Vampire Lords be able to summon wolves and/or bat swarm or be able to transform to a flying bat so as to move across impassable terrain?

disciples of all religions get to cast one or two spells - be it sanctify for good ones, and some kind of blight for evil... Plus a religion special (water walking or some low level chaos spell? I think dance of blades should be changed to something more chaotic BTW)

Sounds good to me. =)

Also, something I wanted to ask for a long time. Should I make Korrina agnostic? There is no sense that she can follow other religions and Publius does not. It can be even argued (but I agree, it is hard to do) that the Risen Empereor does not need to be agnostic. So, all or none?

Well that's why I feel there needs to be a different 'religion' for the Scions and the Illians which would be some sort of "Cult of Personality" where their leader is the center of the religion. I mean if you have "God-King" as a civic you would think you'd need a religion to match it. Now having a God-King civic doesn't necessarily mean you'd have the CoP religion, it just means the king is divinely ordained and leader of their religion. However with the CoP religion, the king IS the divine one.

Personally I can see this religion being made available to any race. Certainly I'm sure it's just better to keep the Illians the only ones who can "Ascend" but even without monkeying with the system, the fact is that in Erebus, with the right magic and faith, the skies the limit and I could see other leaders thinking that perhaps THEY could take a stab toward immortality, especially since in FfH canon all mortals have a bit of that immortal spark in them. Perhaps there could be a spin-off victory similar to the Altar of Luontunar where someone with the CoP has to build a building, complete a ritual and something else really hard like convert X% of Erebus to their cult to win.

Of course while that sounds nice, I guess every race would have to have a "Cult of (insert race here)" - probably easier just to go with "Cult of the Risen Emperor" and "Cult of Ulvin"

 

[Wauthan]

Road movement enhancements no longer linear

Hmmm... Interesting and realistic. What I've come to expect from Orbis. I take it that railroads are only available to a few civs? Nonlinear speed is good idea I think. Will help the AI a lot more then the players (who know the value of Mobility) and will perhaps make the endgame less of a chore.

And, since I love to add workload to the already busy, do you have any plans regarding the current espionage system?

 

[Ahwaric]

Hmmm... Interesting and realistic. What I've come to expect from Orbis. I take it that railroads are only available to a few civs? Nonlinear speed is good idea I think. Will help the AI a lot more then the players (who know the value of Mobility) and will perhaps make the endgame less of a chore.

Thanks
Units move a lot faster in FfH, and commando horsemen are simply annoying
Also I think this change will make mobility promotions less a must have.

Railroads are granted by end game tech (the same tier as arquebuses) and currently are avaliable to everyone. Mechanos can bypass most of the tech tree to get it though.
Also, I think of making refined mana a requirment to build it (only iron required for now)

And, since I love to add workload to the already busy, do you have any plans regarding the current espionage system?

Not in base 0.30, at least no plans for now. But I do not consider current espionage system perfect, so I want to enhance it in the future.

 

[Opera]

I didn't really get the nonlinear movement stuff... Care to explain it to me?
(Note: I saw the screenshot in the first post but still confused)

 

[Ahwaric]

In short - every unit gets bonus from using a road, but slow units get bigger bonus than fast ones.

The rules are
early routes are "slower" than late ones
fast units move faster than slow ones, even on routes
every rout has minimal moement speed - 2 tiles for standard road, 4 for imperial, 8 for railroad

So, an example.
Before, a unit following imperial road always got its movement multiplied by 4. So hasted wolf rider with mobility 1&2 (movement 6) moved for 24 tiles. Now the best he can do is 13. Movement 1 spearman was moving 4 tiles, and that did not change.

There are two things worth noting:
movement 1 unit does not get road bonus speed from engineering (I wanted it to, but the mechanics would require speeding fast units more than I want)
railroad has minimal movement of 8, so no matter is the unit has 1, 2 or 3 moves, he will be able to move for 8 tiles. Faster units treat railroads as it would be imperial road (are faster than train )

 

[arkham4269]

In short - every unit gets bonus from using a road, but slow units get bigger bonus than fast ones.

I like this, I absolutely hated that Hippus cavalry units could go over my border during war and into the deepest parts of my Empire in a mere eyeblink.

Any chance of 'fixing' the Griffin Knight? I've notice that since it is a flying unit, it doesn't seem to get road bonuses so while it is a 'fast' unit in having more movement points, it is often much slower since it can't use road bonuses.

 

[KrugSmash]

Railroads are granted by end game tech (the same tier as arquebuses) and currently are avaliable to everyone. Mechanos can bypass most of the tech tree to get it though.
Also, I think of making refined mana a requirment to build it (only iron required for now)

Perhaps a requirement of refined mana, or fire mana for those who can't get refined? Or both fire and water, or air or some other mana relating to steam, to make it a little more difficult than the mechanos route.

 

[Opera]

@Ahwaric: Thanks Sounds really cool! I started modding without your files; hopefully you'll like what I did and you'll bring it over Orbis

 

[Valkrionn]

Hehe, I know I'd like to steal one of your projects....

 

[Ahwaric]

@Ahwaric: Thanks Sounds really cool! I started modding without your files; hopefully you'll like what I did and you'll bring it over Orbis

I have reuploaded the beta version yestreday, this time triple-checking it. Haven't you gotten my mail?
I am sure I will add plenty of your stuff

 

[Imuratep]

sygian guards are no longer undead or demons, start with mutated (should they retain their initial race?) and maybe some extra abilities (ideas?), plus will pass enraged (temporary crazied?) promotion in combat (just as the diseased is passed)

If you don't consider them as demons how about this:
Stygian guards are the chosen ones of the Octopus Overlords. Only those who have endured the most dreadful nightmares will be allowed to unit their body and soul with a part of the essence of the Overlords and it transforms, improves and finally beautifies them... along the beauty ideal of their masters. You can slay a Stygian Guard, but by that you will only kill the mortal shell, not the immortal essence of the Overlords that now has found its way into Erebus. And it won't leave though it remains passive and waits for another mortal that will be strong enough for its maddening grip.

In game terms:
Once you have researched Fanaticism every 6 Level unit you control can be upgraded to a Stygian Guard if its in a city with a temple of the overlords (Strength 5+2 unholy, can use weapons, mutated, passes enraged in combat).
The high strength of the unit is not the only reason to get a Stygian Guard. Additionally if a Stygian guard dies an invisible unit without any combat strength is spawned: The "Essence of the Overlords". This unit keeps the XP the original unit had. By casting the spell "Dreams of the Overlords" (can't think of a better name right now) every unit that is on the same tile as this unit can try to become a Stygian guard gaining all experience the Essence of the Overlords had. The success chance of this spell depends on the level of the unit that casts the spell and the level of the Essence of the Overlords (10% success chance per level of the unit -5% success chance per level of the Essence of the Overlords). If it succeeds the Essence of the Overlords is killed as it is now part of the new Stygian Guard.
This way an army of the Overlords will stay a threat if a Stygian Guard with high XP dies - if it has some other units that are experienced enough to succeed at casting "Dreams of the Overlords" but are not as vital that you are upset if you lose them.
With the right strategy this should be quite powerful. Thus there has to be another mechanic that counters this mechanic, that is not too easy to achieve (as you have to put greats efforts into Stygian Guards to let them work). So how about a second Spirit III spell that turns enemy Stygian Guards back into normal champions (flavorwise: The essence of the Overlords is forced out of the once human body). Right now Spirit III is anyway quite weak compared to the other level 3 spells.

 

[Ahwaric]

If you don't consider them as demons how about this:

I like it . Needs some balancing and I might do some changes, but count the general idea in.

I thought of making stygians 6+1 unholy (no demons any more, so can be champions with a bonus). Also, I am tempted to replace unholy with cold - it is very rare damage type (no idea why btw), and the power of the cold deep seas... Not sure though.
Should they start with water walking?
Also, should stygian guard be able to upgrade to anything? Eidolon, anything else?

One more question - is current stygian guard art ok or should I look for a different one?

 

[Imuratep]

I think the current art is perfect. The Overlords are a being beyond understanding of mortals and thus the effect of their essence on mortals should be repelling for other religions (Remember Uldred from Dragon Age: He considers the abominations he creates as higher beings, as an improvement of their old human form. A similar view could be imaginable for the followers of the Overlords).

 

[Kalina]

Nice idea, Imuratep But doesn't it sound a little to much like Spirit Guide ? I thought about something similar, but more ''risky''. You can build unlimited Stygian Guards, but first four to reach level 6 gains promotion Chosen of Overlord (with different Overlords, so first would be Chosen of Cthulhu, then Chosen of Dagon and so on, each giving different abilities). If your Chosen dies in combat, if unit that kills it is 6 level or higher it gains this promotion (and becomes Stygian Guard ?) If unit was lower level, your next Stygian Guard to reach level 6 can gain this promotion. This way, you can lose control of your promotion, so we need way to regain it. Something like vision for your Speakers (Cultists ?) to reveal location of unit currently being Chosen. Something like Dagger and Alcinus