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Orion's Inquisition Mod

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Mod Components' started by OrionVeteran, Nov 28, 2008.

  1. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Excellent Point! :goodjob: If you have a state religion, there should be no reason whatsoever for building a competing Holy Office. The next release will definitely include this change.

    Thanks! :)

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  2. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    Not to pressure you or anything, but when do you think will that next release be released?
     
  3. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Not sure really. This version has enjoyed a long run without needing anything fixed. I suppose, sometime after I get the religious victory movie added, then I will put out a new release.

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  4. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Further testing reveals that, if I change religion (following the example above), to Judaism, I can (correctly) build the Jewish Holy Office, but I am still able to train the Christian Inquisitor. Fortunately, there is also a <StateReligion> tag in UnitInfos.xml, so I'd recommend that these tags are also used for the Inquistors. In fact, I would consider using these tags for Missionarys as well... it seems wrong that I can train other types of missionarys under incompatible state religions.

    So it is certainly possible to build several Holy offices by switching religion. This seems somewhat weird to me, especially since they have some pretty powerful effects. Having two different HO's yields +3:), which is not insignificant, along with gold bonuses. Then there are of course also the +2:yuck:. I still think some further balancing of this building is in order. I would consider even making 1:mad: instead of 1:). Not everybody liked the Inquisitors. ;) And perhaps reduce the gold to just +1, while removing the 1:yuck:.

    Continuing this example: I was unable to actually conduct an Inqusition with the Christian Inquisitor, but the Jewish Inquisitor was succesful in purging the city of Christians. Comments:

    • I earned 600 gold from a single Inquistion! I removed a Christian Monastery and the Holy Office. This seems excessive.
    • There is no hover text for the Inquistion button.
    • While purging, I was building a Christian Temple. This build was not cancelled automatically (I didn't check if it would be on the next turn - I switched, and was unable to resume building the Christian Temple). It would be nice if such a build was interrupted, as the prerequisite religion is no longer present. EDIT: I went back and tested this. The build is cancelled automatically after hitting end turn.

    • The Christian Inquisitor survived the Inquisition! :lol: Could incompatible Inquisitors and Missionaries be killed off?
     
  5. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    I agree.

    Limiting the Holy Offices makes sense with the <StateReligion> tag. But I'm not convinced about removing gold or unhealthiness. Please review posts 34 and 36.

    The hover text for the Inquistion button is a good idea. Off the top of your head, do you know how to add the text?

    Remember the inquisition purges the city. Purging units can be done, but if we prevent the production with the <StateReligion> tag, then purging of these units may not be necessary.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  6. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    As stated previously I intend on adding this mod to the mod I am currently working on. Admittedly I haven't read the entire thread, but I had a few questions and concerns that I hope you can answer/ease:
    • I think the Holy Office building is way too powerful, and is it really necessary? If I didn't want to use this in my mod would it be easy just to make a Cathedral requirement for an inquisitor?
    • On that same token can I give the ability to train Inquisitors without a Cathedral/Holy Office under Theocracy? (or is that already in effect).
    • Can I alter the amount of money gained from conducting purges? It seems to me that this is also pretty powerful (especially after hearing about the amount of money you can make doing it). Can I take this out or limit this easily?

    This stuff is relatively important because the mod I am making is meant for MP games, so if you just get money from conducting purges (with no negative, unless there is an I missed it) human players could just use that as a means to get more and more money, especially since the inquisitors don't purge missionaries (even then it would still be easy to manipulate). So I was just wondering if any of these issues are easily fixed/removed?

    Thanks.
     
  7. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    The big negative is the cultural loss you take if/when you remove "foreign" religion buildings. That makes it harder to win a Cultural victory. I suppose you really only want to use the Inquisitors when going for a Religious victory, OR if you want to limit the income for a competitors Holy City. I haven't really tested the amount of gold you gain from conducting an Inquisition, except for the case mentioned above. But I definitely also think that gaining 600 gold from an Inquisition is too much.
     
  8. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    Well, I think I do, but I'm not sure it's possible to add it without SDK editing. Look in CvSelectionGroup.cpp, and do a search for bool CvSelectionGroup::canDoInterfaceMode(InterfaceModeTypes eInterfaceMode). It's mostly a cloning job of one of the cases in that function - IF it's possible to define an Inquisitor based on some XML attributes. In this case, it would really help if there was a <bInquisitor> tag in the UnitInfo.xml. :lol: The actual interface definitions are located in Civ4InterfaceModeInfos.xml, and the textkeys are in another xml file somewhere (forgot the exact name).
     
  9. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Glad you like Orion's Inquisition Mod and I think you will find it to be a fine addition to your mod. :)

    No Problem.

    Right now The Holy Office is a required building to produce inquisitors. I believe this building fills a necessary attribute to help balance the game. Consider this: To win a religious victory, you must achieve religious unity. This requires missionaries to evangalize every city you own. Second, you must purge all non-state religions in every city you own. The cost of producing inquisitors can be enormous. Consider the cost of purchasing the Holy Office and an Inquisitor with turn 1 each under the Universal Sufferage civic.

    Holy Office: Cost is 1080 Gold!
    Inquisitor: Cost is 720 Gold!

    Unless you have the Pyramids, you won't have Universal Sufferage early. So you are going to have to wait the equivallent amount of time in turns necessary to produce at least one Holy Office and then wait a few more turns to get an Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is by no means successful on every attempt to purge a city. You will have to produce many of them to achieve religious unity. Bottom line: you are loosing valuable production time and resouces (gold) that could have been used to produce combat units. Depending upon your situation, the failure to produce combat units could be a huge risk to the safety of your empire.

    How do you offset this huge risk and expense? Enter the Holy Office, which provides 2 gold per turn. If you have 10 Cities, each with a Holy Office; then the income would be 20 Gold per turn. Using this income only, it would take 36 turns just to pay for one inquisitor and 54 turns to pay for another Holy Office! Assuming a high 70 percent success rate, conducting 10 inquisitions to clear out all of the non-state religions in 7 cities, would cost 7,200 Gold for the Inquisitors! Remember 3 of them failed to accomplish their task. Thats 360 turns to pay for the cost of achieving religious unity. However, by that time, you will likey have more cities to clean out. So the cost will be even higher. Yet there should come a time late in the game when you do break even and start to profit.

    Yes, but the game balancing effects provided by the Holy Office would be lost.

    The Holy Office slows the growth of the city with -1 health, which is a big population hit, but not as big as loosing an enire population point.

    The Holy Office provides +1 Happiness, as religiously unified city is a happy city all working for the same cause.

    The Holy Office provides +2 Gold gold to offset the total cost of producing Holy Offices and Inquisitors.

    It is possible using python, but I believe production of the Inquisitor should be based upon the Holy Office.

    Yes, in two functions in the Inquisition.py file: RemoveAllNonStateReligiousBuildings and RemoveAllNonStateReligions.

    The two gold from the Holy Office does not offset the huge risk of producing non-combat units. Your empire is really vulnerable during this time. Additionally, there is a huge risk of war, if you purge a Holy City and or a Shrine. With big risk must come a big reward. You get 500 gold for purging a non-state Holy City and an additional 500 if the non-state Holy City has a non-state Shrine. That's 1000 gold for risking war. ...not much when you consider what the war may cost.

    For each religious building purged, you get 250 gold. This is a fraction of what it cost to produce these buildings. When these buildings are purged, the positive effects of each building is also lost, i.e. culture, happiness etc.

    For each religion purged, you get 100 gold. Inquisitions produced a lucrative business during the middle ages. The 100 gold simulates pure profit from the confiscation of the victim's personal property.

    Lastly, there is code to help an AI Civ convert it's cities to a new religion, if they finally get a Holy City. One religion per turn is given free to the AI until all cities have the Holy City religion and the AI converts to the Holy City religion. This helps to even out the religions and makes it even harder to obtain the religious victory. You will notice this effect by the end of the middle game.

    It can be done, but as I said before the game balancing effects would be adversly impacted. Remember, a lot of play testing has gone into this mod and it plays out very smoothly.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  10. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    The Compensation values (in :gold:) for conducting an inquisition are now variables that you can set to any value you want! If you don't want any compensation at all, then set all four values to 0. These are the default values:

    Holy City
    iHolyCityCompValue = 500

    Shrine
    iShrineCompValue = 500

    Religious Building
    iReligiousBuldingCompValue = 250

    Religion
    iInquisitionCompValue = 100

    I know that this will make a lot of people happy, as you can customize these values to your desire. :D

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  11. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    Game balance issues aside, there was an SDK Mod by TheLopez which could allow you to limit buildings & units to specific Civics settings. Also, have you ever considered giving missionaries & inquisitors the ability to "survive" missions &-as with the Superspies Mod-gain XP & specialties. Just a thought.

    Aussie.
     
  12. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    Aussie,

    I have avoided adding any SDK changes, with the exception of AI Autoplay. Reason: I wanted to maintain compatibility and make this mod easier to import into other mods. Currently, the Inquisitor unit production is dependent upon the prerequisite Holy Office. The prerequisite building is all done in XML and there is a python check for civics.

    I believe spy capabilities should be for spies, while religious capabilities are for missionaries and Inquisitors. Edit: As for survivability, I wonder what percentage chance that a missionary or an inquisitor should have to survive. Any recommendations?

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  13. Ninja2

    Ninja2 Great Engineer

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    I'm not sure that measuring the cost at universal suffrage in gold is the right way to view the cost. If you take a more conservative approach to cost, you could say that in terms of gold, the alternative to producing the Inquisitor/religious building/missionary is to build wealth (because that will get you gold), the cost is simply the hammer cost of those units/buildings in gold. So the Inquisitor costs 80 gold, and the Holy Office the same. Using the US price flat out ignores the "have now vs. have later" tradeoff cost.

    Still, I'm not even sure that it's all that unbalanced, actually. Imagine a case with two cities. City 1 has a holy office and a hammer output of 20 per turn. City 2 has a foreign monastery and a hammer output of 10 per turn. City 1 produces an Inquisitor in 4 turns, City 2 produces a missionary in 4 turns. For now, ignore the chance to succeed in spreading religion, and also the chance to purge, and assume they are both 100%. After 4 turns, the missionary moves to city 1 and spreads its religion. The newly built inquisitor swiftly purges the new religion, netting 100 gold. It may seem like a lot of gold, but had the two cities built wealth instead, after 4 turns, I would be up 120 gold.

    If I were playing to win a religious victory, I would really, really want to put off wiping Holy Cities and Shrines to the very end, for this reason alone. I think you should consider introducing a chance (maybe 10%) for relations to deteriorate just by conducting a normal Inquisition. Or is this already in? I forget... :crazyeye:
     
  14. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    4 turns, 2 cities, 120 gold (average 60 gold) one Inquisitor 80. Seems balanced to me.

    For each Civ that has the purged religion, as their state religion; you get a diplomatic hit for:

    1. The religion purged
    2. The buildings purged

    Perhaps it may be possible to "strengthen" the relations of those Civs that share the purged religion. After several inquisitions, the result could lead to an alliance or even war against the Civ that conducts the inquisition. Note: The purging of a Holy City or shrine automatically results in a declaration of war by Theocracies, that share the purged religion. But when shared purpose results in ever stronger relationships, even non-Theocracies may end up declaring war. So, theoretically, one inquisition could result in 2 diplomatic hits against 2 or more Civs, who receive improved relations with each other and have shared purpose against a common enemy.

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  15. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I'm confused now, does this mod require a custom .dll to run or is it pure python and xml? I assume AIAutoplay is for testing only? I ask because if no .dll is needed to run it then I'll try get it running on Mac BTS.
     
  16. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    If you want AIAutoPlay, then you must have the DLL. However, to play the mod with pure python and xml, without the DLL; please review post 282. That post shows you how to disable AIAutoPlay, so that you do not need the DLL.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  17. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Ahh fantastic. Thanks so much.
     
  18. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    Oh cool, Xyth already asked what I was going to ask. Alright, I have one last question I wanted to ask before I merge this into my mod.

    As far as I am aware you have to build the Holy Office in order to build an Inquisitor. Is there any way to allow the player to build an Inquisitor under a Theocracy WITHOUT a Holy Office?

    And I guess I have one more question, sorry; the AI uses these guys right?
     
  19. OrionVeteran

    OrionVeteran Deity

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    See post 314. There you will find one XML entry for each Inquisitor that controls the prerequisit building.

    They sure do.

    Respectfully,

    Orion Veteran :cool:
     
  20. The Capo

    The Capo godless Heathen

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    This uses a custom DLL huh?
     

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