Paladin/druid/eidolon

[Tarquelne]

The whole Eidolin/Druid/Paladin thing is really quite an annoying piece of symmetry, given the teams dislike of symmetry.

Yes. I think mostly, though, it's an artifact of the dev. team's limited time. The whole Alignment system is a bit simplistic. ...OTOH, it's a HUGE step forward (in fantasy terms) from no alignment system.

There's quite a bit of unit art already available, xml changes are easy and modular mods allow for lots of mix-and-match style modding. I suggest that those who want extra units or changes go ahead and make them. Popularity might persuade the devs. to take the time. And, if nothing else, you get the new units now rather than later.

Personally, I'd go nuts if I waited on the devs. to make every change I want. (I've made some simple xml changes to paladins, and may add a religious warrior to the OO.)

 

[mazirian]

Let's note that this entire discussion is " I really wish it was easier to get Druids".

i hope it's not the purpose of this post , the point is if you want druids you have to follow a nature religion (fol/kilmorph) and not exploit the alignement change when you switch religion .

For example if you play flauros , to have druids (evil ones ) you have to follow FOL , and not switch to order -)octopuss overlord .
The same for paladin/eidolon , disciples units should stick with religions not alignement.
It's more a roleplay and cosmetic problem .

 

[xienwolf]

Mazirian, you do know that you could switch to RoK to become Neutral, right? No need to go Order -> OO to make Flauros get druids.

 

[Cuteunit]

Hook up paladins and eidolons with some spell spheres so its not all about the druids.

 

[mazirian]

Mazirian, you do know that you could switch to RoK to become Neutral, right? No need to go Order -> OO to make Flauros get druids.

Of course you'r right , that was just an example , you can switch to rok for druid s because you become neutral , but if you switch again to OO you stay neutral and still use druids , OO is more chaos and daemons than sylph lovers , like i said it's just a roleplay point of view .

in shadows (g) you can play fol evil nation with eidolon , i'm not sure daemons are very welcome in nature temple.

 

[Ecofarm]

@ Thread:

Just for the record, you know that you do not need a religion to build druids... right?

 

[Darkheart]

Just an idea horribly plaguerised from Cuteunit's other thread.....

Fol Druids can vitalize land.
RoK "Earthkeepers" can raise hills/mountains
OO "Wavemasters" can create coastal water on ocean square (or possibly on land)

 

[xienwolf]

Eco brings up a valid point. While I realize you don't NEED a religion to get druids/paladins/Eidolons, you do need one to switch alignment if you don't start lined up for the one you want to have.

The valid point however, is that a change which tied these to religions would block Cassiel from getting any of them.

 

[Fenboy]

Eco brings up a valid point. While I realize you don't NEED a religion to get druids/paladins/Eidolons, you do need one to switch alignment if you don't start lined up for the one you want to have.

I think perhaps we need to start thinking of ways for a player to change their alignment that don't involve religion...

 

[it-ogo]

I think perhaps we need to start thinking of ways for a player to change their alignment that don't involve religion...

Rare events.

For CoE followers: "Long time you were deceiving everybody and pretending to be better then you are. Now you are unable to get out from your role and deceived yourself: your alignment is changed from evil to neutral."

For Calabim and Sheaim if their world spell is not used: "Your personal astrologer says that today is unique day when you can give up your world spell as an act of good will and become better. Would you like to use this possibility?"

Perpentach: "You are sick of being evil, now you prefer to be good: it is more funny."

Capria (good, not Order, has Donal Lugh): Donal Lugh appeared to be a hidden demon, runaway from Hell because of the conflict with authorities.
- That is abhorrent! Kick him out! (Have -1 hap in all cities for 10 turns, Donal Lugh receives demon promotion, +1 unholy combat and becomes barbarian)
- No matter, he is our hero, keep him anyway. (alignment changed to neutral, Donal Lugh receives demon promotion and +1 unholy combat.)
- Rotten demon! Catch him, put to the cage and torture forever! (Have -2 hap in all cities for 10 turns, hero is lost, have "Donal Lugh cage" building in the capital: +2 culture, -2 hap, +2 xp for disciple units.).

 

[Cuteunit]

I thought donal lugh was a badass, not a demon?

 

[it-ogo]

He was able to hide and misinterpret his past.

 

[Tarquelne]

Hook up paladins and eidolons with some spell spheres so its not all about the druids.

If all you want is to homogenize the units - which, to toss out my own characterization, is what this thread is all about - just take away the spell spheres from druid! Only half the work, since you're changing only one unit, not two!

Personally, though, I like there to be significant differences in the tech paths and units. While I would like there to be more religious/civ-specific units, I don't see significant differences in abilities between units/paths as a problem as long as the "overall" effectiveness of a civ, tech path, whatever is balanced. That's hard to judge, and IIRC not a huge amount of effort has been put into balance yet. Like the AI, that'll be finalized later. But, for my part, I'd rather see the mod have dubious balance with great differences between paths than a surely-balanced mod that's achieved it's balance by treating all units as "most favored" and giving them whatever another same tier unit gets. That's nice for diplomacy, but boring for games. There are lots of improvements that can be made, but I think "make the units more like each other" is a terrible place to start.

The final version of FFH2 might benefit from a "balanced multiplayer" mod that sacrifices some of the mods diversity and flavor for better multiplayer balance. And I'm sure it could benefit from such a mod now. (A lot could be better balanced without sacrificing anything, I think.) But IMO FFH2's single greatest strength is the differences between the various tech paths, religions, etc. It'd be a real shame to see that compromised for the sake of making sure everybody gets Nature 3 every game.

 

[it-ogo]

Now I play as Svartalfar-FoL. Natural combo, no? And I can not use any of those units. Druids feat good but I am evil and it is too late to play with religions: my cities are too populated to give up Guardian of Nature and my Kythra will abandon me. Before I was pressed too hard. So i miss those kind of units (add there Shadowriders). Sinister Satyrs are nice but as top upgrade are not so impressive.

The same is for Arendel. She is too good for Ljos.

I feel that something is missed.

 

[Cuteunit]

If all you want is to homogenize the units - which, to toss out my own characterization, is what this thread is all about - just take away the spell spheres from druid! Only half the work, since you're changing only one unit, not two!

Personally, though, I like there to be significant differences in the tech paths and units. While I would like there to be more religious/civ-specific units, I don't see significant differences in abilities between units/paths as a problem as long as the "overall" effectiveness of a civ, tech path, whatever is balanced. That's hard to judge, and IIRC not a huge amount of effort has been put into balance yet. Like the AI, that'll be finalized later. But, for my part, I'd rather see the mod have dubious balance with great differences between paths than a surely-balanced mod that's achieved it's balance by treating all units as "most favored" and giving them whatever another same tier unit gets. That's nice for diplomacy, but boring for games. There are lots of improvements that can be made, but I think "make the units more like each other" is a terrible place to start.

The final version of FFH2 might benefit from a "balanced multiplayer" mod that sacrifices some of the mods diversity and flavor for better multiplayer balance. And I'm sure it could benefit from such a mod now. (A lot could be better balanced without sacrificing anything, I think.) But IMO FFH2's single greatest strength is the differences between the various tech paths, religions, etc. It'd be a real shame to see that compromised for the sake of making sure everybody gets Nature 3 every game.

That's just it. Everybody wants druids because they are by far the best option, in large part thanks to nature 3. You don't put 10lbs of gold on one side of the scale and only 6 on the other ( oh, 11+4 unholy national unit that doesnt do anything my starting Warrior didnt, curb my enthusiasm) and say thats "diversity". Dwarven druids melt the face off of paladins too. Ring of Fire is both useful AND fun.

 

[xienwolf]

Ring of Fire, from a Dwarven Druid? They get Earth line, not Fire... I am completely confused at this point.

And as for the comment about Homogenizing the units, it may be true that you are getting a similar design by allowing Eidolon and Paladin access to a sphere of magic, but a VERY different feel still because it is a different sphere. I can easily see people going for Paladin over Druid to get 3 more cities to have no worries about happiness. Just can't think of another Rank 3 spell that is useful enough to make the Eidolon also a highly desirable unit, even outside of combat.

 

[Cuteunit]

ok, earth. I havent played luichirp in a while and I'm sleepy, hehe sorry.

 

[Tarquelne]

Balance should be judged by the overall utility/effectiveness of the "tech path", alignment, etc. the unit is part of.

To use your metaphor: There are things of value other than gold.

If druids are harder to get, more expensive, the techs are more expensive, the tech-path offers less total... those are all possible balances beyond, and better than, I think, just making the units more alike.

 

[Tarquelne]

And as for the comment about Homogenizing the units, it may be true that you are getting a similar design by allowing Eidolon and Paladin access to a sphere of magic, but a VERY different feel still because it is a different sphere.

Sure. And I agree that feel is more important than technical similarities. It's all a matter of degree, and the details. I like the magic-heavy druid contrasted to the magic light Pal. and Eidolon, I even like that Druids are, it seems, more powerful. But there are other possibilities. (My LAN-group's mod has Pals. somewhat between Druids and Eidolons with lowered combat stats and adding some spell ability.)

I'm arguing against the idea any imbalance between druids, pals. and eidolons is has to be approached via changes to those units, and that changes resulting in a similar "feel" is a step backward.

A double handful of magic for Paladins might be the way to go. But there are other ways to address balance issues that might be just as effective and add more flavor.

 

[Ekolite]

On a vaguely related topic, Does anyone think that the dwarf druid should be moved to a different tech? The one its on now (commune with nature?) really doesn't fit for the dwarf druid.