Paris burning

Something tells me all the posters here, who seem to be so very appologietic for the rioters, would be singing a different tune, if it was their car/house that was torched...

I guess we have to wait for some law abiding citizens to get actually killed, before people wake up from their self-hating philosophies...

It reminds me of a bad intersection - 20 people have to die, before someone puts a traffic light in...
 
LordRahl said:
Something tells me all the posters here, who seem to be so very appologietic for the rioters, would be singing a different tune, if it was their car/house that was torched...

People want something to be done. Most want it to be a humane solution.

Anyway, even if my car (which I dont own yet) was torched by a frustrated people of some ethnicity, I wouldn't start blaming the entire ethnicity.

I guess we have to wait for some law abiding citizens to get actually killed, before people wake up from their self-hating philosophies...

:lol: :lol:

What "self-hating" philosophies!
 
naziassbandit said:
Anyway, even if my car (which I dont own yet) was torched by a frustrated people of some ethnicity, I wouldn't start blaming the entire ethnicity.

In that case, get back to us, once you do have something to lose, and then lose it...

naziassbandit said:
What "self-hating" philosophies!

The type that blame the victim, and glorify the perpetrator...
 
Tank_Guy#3 said:
This topic just begs the question: Is it just the teenagers, or are all French prone to overkill. Rioting because two teenagers, chased by the police electrocute themselves. I just think that is a poor reason to riot and vandalize.
Average age of the people arrested rioting so far :16
 
The type that blame the victim, and glorify the perpetrator...

Aw, but this isn't that black and white. Both are victims and perpetrators, both have something which they need to improve in themselfs.

They riot because they feel that society has abandoned them.
 
FriendlyFire said:
Australia had a very similar case, stolen car was being chased by police resulting in the deaths of two passangers. The driver escaped and the result was riots on the street at what was claimed as wrongful death and police brutality. Eventually they released wire tap converstations proving the police were not at fault.
There's a plan to equip all police cars with camcorder, so there could be evidences in such cases. But it will start only next year.
 
kryszcztov said:
Come on, this isn't a matter of religion or even culture, it's a matter of social integration that is at the root of the riots here. France is a well-known example of failed politics in this regard because, well, we're a big country in Europe and we suffered quite a lot from WWII. And I won't deny the suicidal politics that have been lead since then about immigrants. Let's put it in just one sentence :
The causes of those riots are to be found in the French politics.
It's not a matter of race, or religion, or whatever crap the news keep on entertaining you about in your comfy house.


Finally somebody sees my point...
These BSing about these kids being simply "jerks" or "put in more police" or "get the troops" etc is simply failing to see the root of the problem or just stick your head into the sand.
Yes, the police will eventually "win". So what? Will that solve the problem? No. Because this is not a police problem!
How about building ethnic tolerance into public education for example? Or at least try to be less exclusive?
 
naziassbandit said:
They riot because they feel that society has abandoned them.
'Society' has kept these people on wellfare (and out of the job market) for a long time. Do you think more of this will solve the problem?


Well, I guess random acts of violence are prefferable to major disruption from angry syndicalists...
 
IglooDude said:
(unless Marla, Krysz, or Steph have been doing stuff they haven't been telling us about),
Well, I was in the US and came back only 3 days ago to discover that :(
But since, I'm working all day in my house to install the parquet floor.
So I haven't been following it closely.
My suggestion would be to send troops with non lethal weapon( why not sleeping gaz? Or needles with sleeping drugs?). We need to catch ALL of them, not disperse them! And if it's not enough, I'm for using more force.
The scums want to fight the police? OK, but then they need to learn what it really means to fight the full might of the Republic (i.e. police + army if needed).
People have their cars burnt and then cannot go to work when they are poor and badly need it. People might get bruned alive.
First, restor order with any mean necessary. Then, discuss and have meeting to find a way to prevent it from happening again.
But for the moment, it's not the time of meeting, it's the time of action.
 
TheDuckOfFlanders said:
The west is filled with Stable democratic goverments ,the Muslim world is still mostly autocratic goverments.

Those few Muslim country's that do have stable goverments and are fairlyy democratic produce far less terrorists than the unstable country's do.Didn't see much Koewaiti terrorists yet ,otoh religion has suddently got a whole new interpretation in irraq it seems ,given the many terrorists now.Strange that Saddam was dethroned in the light of the war against terrorism ,he was actualy secular.

Is it religion that produced the new volumes of terrorists in iraq ,or the political circumstances?

The msulim religion has no need for reforms ,it's the interpretation certain people give it that needs reforms ,but these interpretations usually come from uneducated people ,living in unstable autocratic country's.

Therefore my comparison to the 11th to 14th century (and even before) ,back then muslims were civilized and europeans were a bunch of ragged farmers and knihts in constant warfare wicth eachother.and then the Europeans were religious fantatics ,and the muslim's wern't.Reason?political/social circumstances.

The Muslim world needs democracy ,feedom of press ,good educational body's.By providing jobs ,stabilety and knowledge the chance for these people to turn into terrorists will be reduced to virtually 0.

But we ,the West ,have a hand in that process.As ex. it's time that the USA stops it's support of autocratic goverments like Saudi Arabia's.

Btw ,last 2 pages have been virtually Off Topic ,we should try to get on topic again soon....
I disagree. Plenty of nations are dictatorial regimes and their population don't go around commiting suicide bombings.
I believe that Islam has nothing to do with those riots, however it is undeniable that there is something wrong in the muslim world, and that the cause is precisely a literal interpretation of theirt Holy Book.

I maintain that much like Judaism and Christianism, Islam needs to reformed and softened. You said that in the Mid Ages the islamic world was ahead of Europe, and I know that's true. However social progress in Europe was much more intense, I don't see how one can deny that. Part of social progress is to abandon the fundamentalist approach to religion. For the most part this happened in Europe, but not in the ME.

Let's quit arguing this, though, as it has nothing to do with this particular riots. The cause here is criminal behaviour exarcebated by social exclusion.
 
Bozo Erectus said:
but they arent equipped or trained to handle nationwide uprisings
So what ? We have policemen in every city. :confused:

An election is approaching.
In more than 18 months...

The two men responsible for solving this crisis are DeVillepan and Sarkhozy
De Villepin and Sarkozy. Please do your spelling job, as I do it for Bush & co.

the two main candidates and rivals for office
That is news to me. So far, only Sarkozy has hinted (so much) that he would run for Presidency.


I agree that they won't do much until 2007. Why ? Because they're politicians, it's not their job to do stuff ! :mischief:
 
I just saw "Gangs of New York"

As the movie was over, I saw Paris on the news. It was a strange feeling...
 
LordRahl said:
Something tells me all the posters here, who seem to be so very appologietic for the rioters, would be singing a different tune, if it was their car/house that was torched...

I guess we have to wait for some law abiding citizens to get actually killed, before people wake up from their self-hating philosophies...

It reminds me of a bad intersection - 20 people have to die, before someone puts a traffic light in...
Who in this thread has been apologietic ? :confused: Understanding their behaviour (or trying to do it) doesn't mean we agree with their actions, far from it, my friend. You're one of the "black & white" kind of guys, man, and being "black & white" is meant to failure (you know, Bush's "Either you're with us or against us" thingie). From what I understand from you, there is no explanation other than that they're immigrants, Muslims or just plain azzholes. So what will prevent this to happen again in 10 years ? :confused: To put it simply : try to know your enemy !! Otherwise you're just as dumb as them ("Just use force"). In the meantime the only short-term solution is for everyone (not just the police, but also the State, the citizens, their parents and siblings, the associations, etc...) to stop violence, no one will deny that.

But what's the point in argueing here ? I constantly make points which are ignored. Does that mean I have won ? :cool:
 
I disagree. Plenty of nations are dictatorial regimes and their population don't go around commiting suicide bombings.

But i simply disagree that suicide bombing is inheritly muslim ,and that therefore there is a problem in Muslim believe.Easy to prove to ,suicide bombing is not exclusive in history to muslims.Like: Japenese during WW2 ,Vietnamese during the vietnam conflict ,and these were organized suicde bomber opperations.Quite a few Japanese kamikazed on American Ships ,quite a few vietnamese ran with bombs into American HQ's or positions.If you want to make a count ,a bit there were quite substantial amounts of vietnamese suicide bombers ,thousands if not tenthousands.

Goal of Kamikaze tactics ,or vietnamese ones: to demoralize the enemy with vertical warfare ,schock tactcs ,break the will to fight.Often has proven to be a succesfull tactic to ,forced the USA to bomb Japan with nukes to get the war done withought to much casualties ,and vietnam is obvious.

Difference with "certain" muslim suicide bombers is that usually the Japanese targeted combatants ,while "certain" muslim suicide bombers target non-combatants ,sometimes in large mass and in a time of non-official war.

Now targeting non-combatants is nothing new neither in warfare.Strategic bombers torching whole towns ,German U-boats sinking American civilian ships in a time of no war yet.Nukes.Not to talk about the numbers of casualty's there ,9/11 was nothing compared to Hiroshima ,and the nuke was a demoralization weapon to ,virtual warfare ,if they had taken a rope and tied a person to it it would have been i gigantic terrorist attack.

So whats new? the combination i guess ,virtical warfare in time of no war targetting non combatants.ell why now and not in the past?Simple really ,globalization.Palestinians don't have to go far to target Jewish civilians.In a wy even palestinian suicide bombers often attack israeli combatants.In 1944 the japanese couldn't just take their plane and go fly to America to ram it into a very important installation ,i guess if they could they would have done it ,same goes for those wacky Vietnamese.


I maintain that much like Judaism and Christianism, Islam needs to reformed and softened. You said that in the Mid Ages the islamic world was ahead of Europe, and I know that's true. However social progress in Europe was much more intense, I don't see how one can deny that. Part of social progress is to abandon the fundamentalist approach to religion. For the most part this happened in Europe, but not in the ME.

Extremism simply relates to social conditions.When country's get unstable extremists gain momentum ,simple as that.With the instabilety in france now it's probably clear that the french far right wing will gain most of the situation.Vietnamese don't blow themselfs up for the fun of it ,and since the end of the war they remarkably stoped that tradition ,same goes for the Japanese.

That there is tension between the middle east and the West is easy to explain ,we have been sucking it dry of oil for our use for decade's and need a constnant supply to maitain our richness ,so we excert our influence over it wich in the case of the USA is massive.deny this and youre IMO naive.Israel is USA's good good buddy so the palestinians can't never really win.Saudi Arabia is the good old puppet oil pool ,Iran is the runaway puppet oil pool ,Iraq is an opportunity with shady casius belli above that tiny puppet Koeweit ,oh it was only a few decade's ago that the USA helped Saddam to defeat the runaway puppet.In the USA every attack on civilians means a domestic surge of nationalism and patriotism ,they are handy enemy's for rallying a poppulation behind you.

But you can disagree ,but i'm not that cynical yet ,i'm only warming up.But that is not the point ,A average muslim will be WAAAY more cynical about this whole bussiness than me westerner wiith social reservations ,regadrless if you argue ,and the situation there is more important for this matter.And additionally for them to be anti american is socialy constructive ,youll easily have friends with such thoughts ,it's create's a sort of dangerous pan-muslim nationalims.

This i guess is even more important ,Anti-American's create's solidarity in otherwise a fragmented Muslim worlds ,it ties them closer toghether ,and religion has rather become a means of tying these fragments toghether in a more powerfull whole ,but it remains an exploited means.The Moejahedeen are legendary as pan Muslim fighting force fighting on the fringes of the Muslim world regardless of nationality.They are modern crusaders ,comparable to our medieval ones ,but they are fighting from a position of danger to their independance ,like they historicly did in Afhanistan VS russia.They are not the technoligical advanced ,just as the crusaders were technological inferior to the the Muslims in the 10th century ,safe for brutal methods of warfare.vertcal warfare as means to close the gap in advancement.

And religioun was only a tie for the crusaders to.Little did they care about religion ,heck the Crusaders of the 1st crusade litteraly slaughtered the whole poppulation of jerusalem, ,christinas included.they wern't very zealous ,if anything relgioun was for them the tie that tied their fragments of groups toghether.pope Urbanes his engenious idea ,to make order in his fragmented and threatened Christian world by uniting the warlord nations under the banner of religioun and seeking a comman enemy.Nothing ties people better toghether than a coman enemy.Especially one sticking youre esyes out with vast richness.

That the Muslim world is less advanced ,less powerfull than us the west is largely to our discretion of being more advanced ,and we are more advanced than many others ,more advanced than Africa ,or large parts of Asia.We havn't really been generous in giving away our technoligical or financial advantage's for the coman good.Combine this with interrezsts of us ,namely oil ,and the mix is exmlplosive.

Anyway ,enough text for that topic ,back to Paris ,some notes:

This whole episode will lead to destabilization ,and it will be mostly in favor for ideological party's.Certain pêople will draw the conclusion that immigrants are the problem ,and they'll lean more to the far right.Others will blame goverment policy's ,and will lean more to the left.Eitherway this will probably influence the proportional support of various party's ,and the more outspoken party's will gain from it.

Now the more right wing party is clearly established ,as it seems mostly in the city's ,it looks clear as this will benifit them most.

If ideological left has a solid party representing them ,then it's a good counter for a right wing party ,and forces the party's to seek more concensus either with centre party's.Though hopefully concensus won't result in inabilety to act on the core problem.(whatever it might be)

Though if i presume right the party of Sarkozy is the one mostly representing either left or centre left?

My greatest worry is when a sollution can't be found ,in any case i think it's a dangerous precedent.I only hope France won't be to represive (or even get youngstes killed) ,or that extreme right wing militant people might seek lethal conflict with the gangs.If you get to represive then you might have terrorists in the make (they are nearing it already anyway ,luckily not lehtal yet) ,or it could lead to deep social conflict.

My greatest fear is that this is only the beginning ,since the guys got electrified no deaths have fallen ,but if the gangs get new marty'rs then thing's might turn a lot worse.

But another thing seems important here to me.How will the Muslim and frican world react to this?
 
TheDuckOfFlanders said:
Though if i presume right the party of Sarkozy is the one mostly representing either left or centre left?
No, all three, Chirac, de Villepin and Sarkozy are members of the same right wing party (UMP). Sarkozy actually leads the party.
 
TheDuckOfFlanders said:
Though if i presume right the party of Sarkozy is the one mostly representing either left or centre left?
ROTFLMAO. Opposite. As kronic said, he currently leads the UMP, the major right-wing party (also home of Chirac and de Villepin, since they all run the country). The left is currently dead. It's surprising from you to miss that, I thought I had expressed my anger towards Sarkozy and his police state dreams enough ?

But another thing seems important here to me.How will the Muslim and frican world react to this?
Try to remember how the Muslim community in the USA react after 9/11. Completely against the attacks, but then, who would listen ? A very difficult situation for them. Not to add that they have no relationship with that (as far as we know), and they may get annoyed to be stigmated by racist, white guys all the time. :mad: It makes you wonder, would we blame the Catholic or Protestant Church if the KKK made some terrorist attacks ? Ah, now you feel closer to the Muslim community, thanks to me. :cool:
 
kryszcztov said:
It makes you wonder, would we blame the Catholic or Protestant Church if the KKK made some terrorist attacks.

I've yet to hear "kill muslims" chants in a Xtian church, but go to any of the more radical mosques and "kill infidels" is part of the day...

I'm an agnostic by the way, and do not buy into "invisible sky wizard" cults...
 
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