Paris burning

[Marla_Singer]

I think the stats about the %age of rioters being Muslim will be hard to find since France do not keep records on religion. SO you guys are in for a looooong fight

What's more important, though, is that Marseille got relatively spared from the riots, even if it's France's 3rd biggest town.
An explanation for this is that in Marseille the population is globally more mixed than in others towns, resulting in less ghettos, and ths, less angry people living in these ghettos.

Masquerouge, the other difference is that Marseille is the only coherent city in France !

Indeed, the municipality of Marseille encompasses 810,000 people when Marseille's urban area is about 1,300,000 people. That has nothing to do with what I call the bourgeois citadelle of Paris representing 2 million people in an urban area of more than 10 million people.

In Marseille, everyone is Marseillais. In Paris, if you don't live in the old town, you're a "banlieusard". There's a psychological frontier between Paris and banlieue... which is a very negative word in French vocabulary. Paris administrative borders should rapidly fit it's modern dimensions. It's not because you don't live in a building built in the 19th century that you're not Parisian.

It's totally insane to realize that there's not a single authority in France managing Paris urban area as a whole. The only one considered as such is the Ile-de-France region. But please, We can't consider Provins or Nemours, which are provincial towns, as the same as Pantin, Montreuil, Boulogne, or Aubervilliers, which are fully part of Paris.

Somewhere, I believe that in people's unconscious in France, Saint-Denis is like Soweto and Paris is like Pretoria. That's the SAME city ! I can't bear anymore such an exclusion. It becomes a priority to create an adiministrative Greater Paris as there is a Greater London. Mayors of what we call banlieues should have the same status as mayors of Paris arrondissements. I'm not talking about creating new arrondissements, Courbevoie should remain Courbevoie, not the 31st arrondissement, it's simply that for the sake of coherence I don't understand for which reason Courbevoie wouldn't be administrated in the same way as an arrondissement.

The 4 departments in the center should be considered in the same way as New York's boroughs.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Marla was the one who brought up that figure.

Who can imagine that 50% was a scientifically determined statistics ??

That thing remains that in general there were as many black people rioting than arab people, to speak as in French media since recent days....

 

[Marla_Singer]

Considering the ineptitude of the French government so far, I wouldn't be all that suprised if they tried that. Maybe with some brochures nearby on some sensitivity classes being held nearby.

France is a country working in a totally different way than the US in this field. We consider there's only one community in France, the community of citizens. People can be whatever they want, they are considered the same and aren't differenciated among subgroups.

That's the reason why there's no questions about "races" or religions in French census. It's simply considered to not be the business of the government. And most French people would find it offensive if it would be different.

 

[Jorge]

I already made my position on why Islam is a cause of these riots clear several pages back. Why don't you just reread them and then post what you disagree with?

However you failed to provide the figures that support your opinion. If you think that Islam is the cause, then you sure will have figures about the % of people rioting that are doing so for religious causes. Please, provide them, or your opinion will not be backed with facts and will hence be just a random opinion.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Funny thiong it is, antifascism is far more harmful than fascism itself).
Like one guy described. They were forced by the court to hire black man to their company(small company, PC-related job), cuz he was black and their decline was interpreted as a racial descrimination(they got no blacks in their company). Court do not even decided to listen that that guy got absolutely no idea what to do with PC and do not met even minimal requiments.
And as far as I know there were several demonstrations by teachers in France, cuz immigrants threated their and children's life. But that wasn't the main point - the reason for demonstration was that teachers can't oppose immigrants. Tell them to stop - and what can you do? Apply any kind of punishment and next day you'll got "BREAKING NEWS! NEW ERA OF FASCISM!Racist teacher oppress poor Mahmud, who is only hope for his 20-people family!" And picture of teacher in swasticas along wtih some Goering and Hitler portrets. That means you can now find job only in places where there is no even dove mail.

 

[kryszcztov]

If you have nothing to add to the discussion, then why don't you stop posting?

I don't see where you countered my posts. But then this thread is 38 pages long, so that's to be expected. Why don't you just quote what you said and let's go on from there?

Instead of making a long post which will be ignored, let's be quick.

Argument of mine : The riots in France are not about Islam as a religion.
One source, for a start : here
Quote from that article :

"Nous ne voyons aucun lien dans ces violences avec des institutions ou des préoccupations religieuses", déclare-t-il dans une interview au journal Le Monde. "En revanche, le lien avec la criminalité de droit commun est établi, puisque la police connaissait déjà 80% des interpellés."

Translation by me :

"We can see no link in those violent actions with religious institutions or matters", he declared [Le directeur général de la police nationale (DGPN) : The national police's head officer] in an interview with the newspaper Le Monde. "However, the link with common crime has been established, since the police already knew 80% of the arrested [missing the word : not in jail, but going to the police station] people.

OK, so this is a source from someone who is directly in charge with the riots, not a dude who practice some analysis on the Quran.

This was ONE argument. I have more. Waiting...

 

[klazlo]

That's the reason why there's no questions about "races" or religions in French census. It's simply considered to not be the business of the government. And most French people would find it offensive if it would be different.

This is an interesting question. The US has a long history on asking about race and ethnicity on census forms, and while nobody in the US would consider this as a government business, they still answer it, and it is a very important information for policy makers, sociologists and also for the minority organizations.
It would not hurt to put it on the census form, you could gain much, much more than you would "lose" by being criticized. And there are ways to avoid political confrontation around it - in the US there are zillions of minority and other civil organizations who work with the Census Bureau in this subject.

 

[Masquerouge]

This is an interesting question. The US has a long history on asking about race and ethnicity on census forms, and while nobody in the US would consider this as a government business, they still answer it, and it is a very important information for policy makers, sociologists and also for the minority organizations.
It would not hurt to put it on the census form, you could gain much, much more than you would "lose" by being criticized. And there are ways to avoid political confrontation around it - in the US there are zillions of minority and other civil organizations who work with the Census Bureau in this subject.

It really is a cultural thing. The good side is that everybody is French before anything else, even the rioters.
The bad thing is that it does not work quite well anymore, and the lack of data hinders solutions while at the same time giving fuel to the FN, the racist political party, that can pretty much makes up what it wants about the immigration figures without fear of being corrected...

 

[bad_ronald]

It really is a cultural thing. The good side is that everybody is French before anything else, even the rioters.
The bad thing is that it does not work quite well anymore, and the lack of data hinders solutions while at the same time giving fuel to the FN, the racist political party, that can pretty much makes up what it wants about the immigration figures without fear of being corrected...

I sincerely hope for the good of the people of France that by "solutions" you don't mean something like Affirmative Action. The fact that such programs aren't feasible in a society where races aren't tabulated is its sole redeeming quality. If you coupled Affirmative Action with the literal illegality of speaking about race issues you will take the worst aspects of the United States, couple them with the worst aspects of French policy and be left with unfair system that you won't even be able to criticize when it inevitably fails miserably.

 

[klazlo]

It really is a cultural thing. The good side is that everybody is French before anything else, even the rioters.
The bad thing is that it does not work quite well anymore, and the lack of data hinders solutions while at the same time giving fuel to the FN, the racist political party, that can pretty much makes up what it wants about the immigration figures without fear of being corrected...

Yes, this is exactly my point: if you would have reliable numbers, no one could twist it and use it for his own purposes. Not to mention that with crosstabulating with other data, you could actually show the social and economic problems of these people, and see the impact of race on this issue.
Also, you can still be French and have a racial or ethnic identity. It is just the matter how you construct the census form. "French" is not a race anyway.

Edit: typo

 

[Masquerouge]

Yes, this is exactly my point: if you would have reliable numbers, no one could twist it and use it for his own purposes. Not to mention that with crosstabulating with other data, you could actually show the social and economic problems of these people, and see the impact of race on this issue.
Also, you can still be French and have a racial or ethnic identity. It is just the matter how you construct the census form. "French" is not a race anyway.

Edit: typo

I think what we are trying to avoid is an affirmative action solution, even if it is gaining grounds. I actually am pretty much convinced that resumes with an Arab names are much more rejected than those with a traditionnal name ; but how should we adress that ? Anyway we're still having trouble with men/women parity, so... I really wish the old politicians ruling the scene with their 19th-century ideas would "go" away. Our president is more than 70 years old,
And I would hate to see the day where in school you have to fill in your "ethnicity", a mixed-up pot of skin colors, countries and ethnic groups that makes no sense at all (I had to fill "Anglo-Saxon" when I was in Texas )

 

[klazlo]

I think what we are trying to avoid is an affirmative action solution, even if it is gaining grounds. I actually am pretty much convinced that resumes with an Arab names are much more rejected than those with a traditionnal name ; but how should we adress that ? Anyway we're still having trouble with men/women parity, so... I really wish the old politicians ruling the scene with their 19th-century ideas would "go" away. Our president is more than 70 years old,
And I would hate to see the day where in school you have to fill in your "ethnicity", a mixed-up pot of skin colors, countries and ethnic groups that makes no sense at all (I had to fill "Anglo-Saxon" when I was in Texas )

"Anglo-Saxon", wow! When was it? Or... maybe it is just Texas.
I think in the US you have to give your kids' racial and ethnic identity in school forms because over a certain proportion the school is eligible for various federal support based on the share of minority students. There are specific programs for American Indians, or english classes for Hispanics etc.
Old politicians are not easy to kick out, but the problem also exists when the new politician generation goes through the same political socialization process - in Hungary for example Viktor Orban as a quite young prime minister between 1998 and 2002 had the same conservative ideas as anybody from the old guard. He just had more energy to put these into practice.

 

[Marla_Singer]

It would not hurt to put it on the census form, you could gain much, much more than you would "lose" by being criticized.

Well, outside the question whether or not this would really be that useful, there's something I'm 100% sure of, it's that a law asking for people to claim either their colour of skin or their religion would never be accepted, nor even proposed. And if a fool would propose it, he would be denounced as a freakin' nazi in less than 5 minutes.

You must know that the only time in France's History when such a thing existed has been during the German occupation.

 

[Masquerouge]

"Anglo-Saxon", wow! When was it? Or... maybe it is just Texas.
I think in the US you have to give your kids' racial and ethnic identity in school forms because over a certain proportion the school is eligible for various federal support based on the share of minority students. There are specific programs for American Indians, or english classes for Hispanics etc.

Yeah, Texas

I mean, Hispanic really means Mexican actually (to the great confusion of the Spanish exchange students, who had to put "anglo-saxon" too ), Native Americans could also be Mexicans when you come to think of it, so Native Americans really stands for "people living in the US before the white man came", African-American really means "offspring of former black slaves", because after all the son of Tunisian migrants technically is an African-American, "anglo-Saxon" means White, and so on.
Funny thing is, the categories really depend on where you are in the US

 

[Marla_Singer]

About affirmative action, I support it, but it shouldn't be based on religion or ethnicity, it should be purely based on social criteria. If you come from what is called in French a "ZEP" (Prioritary Education Zones), it's perfectly decent to consider you should have a more open access to the better engineer or business schools. Of course if you're at the top of it.

I don't believe it's that harder to be the first of the class in a Parisian high school than in a ZEP, and what I consider as the most relevant to determine who are valuable for a school are the efforts being made. With the same amount of efforts, it's harder when you come from a ZEP, it shouldn't be the case.

 

[klazlo]

Well, outside the question whether or not this would really be that useful, there's something I'm 100% sure of, it's that a law asking for people to claim either their colour of skin or their religion would never be accepted, nor even proposed. And if a fool would propose it, he would be denounced as a freakin' nazi in less than 5 minutes.

You must know that the only time in France's History when such a thing existed has been during the German occupation.

This would be useful, it isn't even worth debating it.
And this is exactly why you have problems like this. France apparently doesn't have the sufficient knowledge about immigrants, neither to help their situation, not to fend off extreme right-wing claims.
Also, it is not necessarily about the color of your skin, but your identity. Pushing people into one uber-identity, like you guys do it, never worked (think of Bismarck or the "melting pot"). And it did not work in France either. The sooner France gets accustomed to multiethnicity and the possibility of multiple identities (based on race, ethnicity or whatever), the sooner you'll be able to solve this problem.

 

[klazlo]

Yeah, Texas

I mean, Hispanic really means Mexican actually (to the great confusion of the Spanish exchange students, who had to put "anglo-saxon" too ), Native Americans could also be Mexicans when you come to think of it, so Native Americans really stands for "people living in the US before the white man came", African-American really means "offspring of former black slaves", because after all the son of Tunisian migrants technically is an African-American, "anglo-Saxon" means White, and so on.
Funny thing is, the categories really depend on where you are in the US

It's kinda off-topic, but there have been many changes in the US census about this issue over time as well. Mexicans were considered "whites" until 1970, except if they were "indians". Now about 75 % of all Hispanics are Mexicans. In 2000, respondents were able to choose multiple races for the first time (due to the increase of kids from interracial marriages). Also, "Hispanic" is not a race, it is ethnicity or "origin" - you can be a Hispanic White, a non-Hispanic White, a Hispanic Black etc.

Edit: for those who are interested in the US practice, here is a link:
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html

Edit2: The US Census Bureau is not allowed to collect any data on religion - and this is the right thing to do.

 

[Marla_Singer]

There's no need to insist Klazlo, it won't happen.

Furthermore, I highly doubt there are so extraordinary bonus as you may assume. I like people's differences to be respected by the government. And that's certainly a cultural difference with no matter the place you're from (I don't care honnestly), but such a thing as you're proposing would be considered in France as a severe individual rights offence.

No one would agree, me included.

 

[MobBoss]

About affirmative action, I support it, but it shouldn't be based on religion or ethnicity, it should be purely based on social criteria. If you come from what is called in French a "ZEP" (Prioritary Education Zones), it's perfectly decent to consider you should have a more open access to the better engineer or business schools.

I love it..put the least qualified in the best schools. Now thats a formula for success.

 

[Bigfoot]

Obviously the economic disparities in France are closely correlated with race and ethnicity, notwithstanding the official policy that everyone is French, period. To paraphrase George Orwell, some of you are more French than others.

So how are you going to deal with the problem of discrimination without data? I can understand the aversion to official record keeping along these lines, I always found those type questions annoying too. But it seems to me like a paradigm shift is in order here, otherwise you will not be able to deal constructively with the problem.