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Passing the Torch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Rex Tyrannus, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    okay, going after what people are saying about spAWn busting, I've been playing with photoshop for a while. The best I can come up with to completely remove barbs from our south is this.

    I also attached the photoshop file in case anyone wants to play with it.
     

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  2. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    I came up with this:



    Using the same number of units, you should get more efficient and wider coverage. Now, I realize that it appears that there are gaps, but remember that spawnbusting affects all units within 2 tiles of the unit, so those corners are actually covered. The blue around Washington is meant to indicate its cultural borders. If I recall correctly, your culture counts as a unit in this way. So the "gap" between Washington and your two orange units is actually covered. You still need 9 units for this (7 just to cover the south--I just realized the pink by Washington overlaps with a lot), so crank out those Warriors if you still can. Or scouts, even. Cheap stuff.
     
  3. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Umm....I'm not an expert in Civ4. Civ3, I used to be, but I've not played a lot of Civ4 in the last few years. I think we're more passing the torch in terms of community and fun, not in high levels of expertise.

    That said, justinious, that report ... lacked a lot of detail. Like Rex said, HOW the city was lost is pretty important. What we're building, what we researched, etc.

    I probably won't be able to play until later in the week.

    Arathorn
     
  4. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Also as far as I've learned, from watching Neal being KoTW, the AI never settles by boat on the same continent as it starts, so as soon as you close off culturally you should be safe, unless there is another continent within two tiles of you.

    Sorry forgot to mention, following on from SilentConfusion's earlier post.
     
  5. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    I do not believe that this is correct. I have seen games and played games in which the AI will use a Galley to bypass the player's cultural borders in order to sneak a city in "behind the lines."
     
  6. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    We talked about that in the OSS SG: maybe the AI had decided to settle before you actually complete the block.
     
  7. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    OK, we're getting hammered a bit by barbarians here. One of my main goals was to build up some semblance of a military. I think I made good progress on that.

    Research-wise, we completed Alphabet, Mysticism, and are partway through Mathematics. I did Math instead of Currency because Math gives a rebate on Currency and we're going to need both eventually. I would highly recommend Currency after Math, because it will really help our empire-wide economics.

    What happened to all our workers? I had built us up to 4 or 5 on my last turnset. And we had 2 to start this turn. That's not good. We need to develop our land well to outpace the AIs. I only built 1 or 2 on my turns, but we should have more workers than cities at this point in the game. I beg that the worker in Washington at least be allowed to finish. We have a lot of jungle to chop, roads to build, irrigation/cottages to make, and everything else. Workers are very important.

    Some minor things...

    I didn't revolt. It's only one city at this point and being Hindu isn't going to help our happiness issues until we have some method of spreading the religion and/or using a better civic. What this pop-up tells us, though, is that we have a religion available in our cities for when we want to start using that civic. Or when we really need happiness.


    What can we learn from this? Our island is fairly large. We aren't the biggest right now (not a worry, honestly, because we have all that land to the south blocked out for exclusive use. We've been prioritizing blocking off land instead of increasing the number of tiles under our control.).

    We can also note that our on-island opponents are similar size to us. Since they have culture, that means they have fewer cities than we do. That becomes important when it's time to crank troops. They will also be squeezed for space soon. All-in-all, it's pretty good news.

    On to important/fun things!

    If you look carefully, you can probably see that we were in a position to take Bactrian earlier. But I didn't attack. Why not? Because I wanted Bactrian to grow to size 2 so we could capture instead of raze. That saves us a settler and Bactrian will be a pretty strong city for us. It's not ideal but it's easy/fast and that's good enough for now.

    That's the only city I took (yes, we killed the warrior). I also killed a barb axe near Washington and another random barb somewhere. We have a few warriors in the south getting ready to move into position from the earlier map. Most of our troops continued toward Philadelphia....



    The two chariots are probably sufficient. Move them into the forest next to Philly on the first turn and capture the second. There WAS an axeman running around. Mansa had a couple troops running around, too. If the axe is there, that's OK, our chariots get a bonus against them. If not, a single warrior is easy pickings. The warrior near "Not Chicago" is no threat. Let him suicide against the fortified axeman. Free xp for us! :D

    Some other recommendations:
    - No more cities for a while. We need to get to Currency first so our economy doesn't crash.
    - Economy. Time to start hiring scientists. Le's look at Washington.

    Note the happiness circled in purple? If we grow again, we're going to be unhappy and that new person won't work. That's not good. (Note, we won't grow right now because we're building a worker)
    The two squares circled in red won't be very good after the worker is done (in fact, the forest should be an irrigated plains by the river to get one extra commerce). Clicking on those squares will remove the workers and put them to the right. (We will be losing food slowly in Washington, but that's OK for a bit)
    Then, click on the scientists (circled in black) and our science will dramatically increase, even with a low science slider. We need to do that as opportunities present themselves. I would make these changes after the worker completes.
    - What about another way to get rid of people?

    In about 2 or 3 turns, this forge can be hurried for just 3 people. I've circled the button that will light up once the forge can be rushed. Doing this rush will pay for itself very quickly. That gets rid of people who would become unhappy soon and provides us with a valuable building. Please do it, arkenstone!
    - I built a few monuments so we should get some border increases on arkenstone's turns. That will seal our borders across the Bactrian/Washington/NY line (though further north is also good). Philadelphia should probably build a monument first, too, once we capture it and it comes out of revolt.

    Things are coming along nicely!
     

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  8. arkenstone

    arkenstone Chieftain

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    sorry i haved not been posting lately i have a bord game that everyon at my age wants to play (axis and allies a WWII game) and everyone i have been really been enjoying the input i am not sure abput the others.
     
  9. arkenstone

    arkenstone Chieftain

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    :woohoo::bday: on the 24th of march it is my birthday! waait a second that is wwwwwwaaaayyyy of topic[offtopic] anyway
    so what i did is i traded mansa musa horsebackrideing for priesthood, monnotheism, and archery. sounded like a good idea for us and i could not get him to a higher bargan.

    there in washington we will have major starvation like that in 23 turns but i also after a turn i finished building a road to connect the farm so i think we have less starvation. on the same tun we also built a forge in new york by the blue borders show where we preasantly are by the way. wipping:whipped:
    i captered philadelphia back and that waorior( or clubby) did end up comiting suiside:suicide: like arathorn said and we did get a free prmotion!
    the clubby stayed put i thought what was the use in running and doing less damadge later. smart for once hu. anyway he killed 2 and 1 healed before i saw him again in 2 turns.
    i was sending down a searman and he got collapsed on big time it was 8.25<4.00 he did kill none unit for what he was worth.
    still not perfect i know but better than last time!
    that is how the poor spearman dieded and rex i accedentally have you starting on the begining of turn 121 because i was trying to get that poor spear dude to escape and i hit the space bar twice and on my next post i will have the game as a save i cannot figure it out how to do it without arathorn so it will be up[offtopic] well sortof but anyway next slide please i said NEXT SLIDE PLEASE! :rolleyes: sorry! i know it is sortof thhe same as last time but ii( iprotant iformation) we can take a barbarian village that is south of us. wait hear is the save. i hope this will help you plan it up what you want to do!" align="" border="0" />" align="" border="0" />
     

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  10. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    arkenstone did figure out how to attach the save.

    Rex, you're up.

    Losing troops down in the south isn't a bad thing. It's almost inevitable. But losing troops who are trying to bust barbs well away from our borders is a TON better than losing ones defending our cities! :D Nobody goes without losing troops -- it's just where to lose them. A few more powerful troops to clean up the barbs down there and we should be able to spawn-bust for a long time.

    We are at our limit for cities until we get Currency (and ideally Code of Laws). We need to check cities like New York for the ability to hire specialists. If Pyramids finish, Representationism will be a boon to our research rate. Specialists will be good.

    We need to move some workers west to cities like Bactria and Philadelphia. Our core cities are overly-developed (more tiles improved than the city can work) but our fringe cities really need attention.

    arkenstone forgot to mention it, but he accidentally started the 150 AD turn. He just hit an extra key at the very end of the 125 AD turn. I'm pretty sure he took no action in that turn.

    Arathorn
     
  11. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Great. In the best tradition of this game, I'll hurry my turns so that we can all four play in one weekend.

    In surveying the game, I first of all share Arathorn's concern that the north remains unworked. We have a lot of jungle that makes us unhealthy and prevents us from putting up nice shiny cottages. And we have a bunch of gems unmined while we have happiness issues down south. Well, I'm fixing that. It's not done yet, but we have all of our workers up there now either chopping, mining, or roading.

    Actually, Justinious, I'm pretty sure I forgot to put a road on one of our gem mines. Please make that a priority.

    Anyhow, something that surprised me was Mansa's cultural press on Atlanta.



    I whipped the monument turn 1 and we should make a point of building cultural buildings to press back.

    A couple of turns in, someone founded Christianity.



    Fine with me, because we've got giant pointy stone!!!



    I hurried them in with a four-pop whip.



    This was great for production, but lousy for our economy. Take a look at parts of that screen shot I cropped out.



    Our expansion has tanked us. This is 1 part whip, 3 parts city count, and another 2 parts number of troops outside our borders. The whipped people come back to work financial tiles. The cities grow and overcome their maintenance. And the troops...well they keep barbs from tearing up our sheep.

    The point is, don't build (too m)any more troops. We have our spawn-busting nearly done.



    I but signs up because I'm too dumb to remember. We only need one more sign manned and we have a horse archer on his way. Then we'll be barb free. (Except any that come from Hun, the city that spawned on the west coast.)

    One last note. I'm building Colossus in New York. He'll be available to whip in a couple of turns. While we don't have many water tiles now, when we fill in the south, we will, so the +1G will be a good thing.
     

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  12. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    Hey, you're using my spawn-bust map. :)

    Actually, I now see an error that I made (on the side of caution): You do not need the spawn-buster southeast of Washington. I noted that location on the assumption of Level 2 borders, but with Level 3 borders, you will have full coverage over that area, so that guy could be sent to your west coast or somewhere else.

    Also, the spot near Bactrian is no longer needed, for obvious reasons, at least, once the Borders pop.

    I would also recommend that the unit "spawn busting" near the Barbarian City be something stronger than a Warrior. Something for the next player to consider.

    Anyway, it looks like you've finally regained control of all of your cities, which is good. The kids' reports are definitely entertaining, but as a Lurker, I would like to see more information on what the cities are building, what you are researching, and some notes on the general micro-management (what you move and change each turn) you are doing.

    By the way: Arkenstone: I got the impression that you tried to build a road on a farm to increase food production. Unfortunately, that does not work. Building roads increases unit move speeds and connects resources, but the only way to increase farm output is to research Biology.

    Also, heed Rex's advice to build a lot of cultural buildings in your northern cities: Monuments, Libraries, even Temples and Monasteries if you get religion there. In fact, you have two religions in your civilization. If you do not convert to one, you can get culture from both. If you research Meditation, you can build Monasteries, which let you build Missionaries to spread religions.

    Of course, increasing your cash flow is probably priority #1. Cottages are good for that. Remember: You need Workers to build cottages!

    OK, enough of my rambling. Hopefully I've said something useful. This is a really nice game to watch. I hope to see everyone (parents and children!) improve!

    @arkenstone: Interestingly enough, I recently got a copy of Axis & Allies as a gift, but I haven't had a chance to play much yet. It seems very fun.
     
  13. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    yes. Forgot to mention that I'm researching Code of Laws. Given our likelihood of expansion, I figured courthouses were most needed.
     
  14. justinious

    justinious Chieftain

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    So, I am building a few



    Spoiler :
    spies? really?

    Whats the harm?

    ooooooooooooh man. sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!



    :backstab:This is what you get, warrior. You know what I mean.[pimp]



    more


    running out of time









     

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  15. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    What mission did our spy do to Mansa Musa? Are you aware, justinious, that leaving a spy in place for a significant period of time (5 turns) gives you a HUGE rebate on spy costs? We don't have a lot of espionage points yet, so I'm wondering what you used them on. Generally, it'ts worth saving espionage points to do city revolts during an invasion, to get past the darn city defense. Or to steal a tech (or a LOT of techs, which is quite do-able, too).

    Did we get Currency? Currency gives an extra trade route/city and rebates Code of Laws. Plus, being able to build markets is very handy for coming out of an economic hole, not only for the multiplier effect but to run money-making specialists. Guess I'll look into it all once I play.

    It's spring break week here, so it may well be possible for both Arkenstone and I to play before the weekend. I had a marathon session with LotR27 tonight, though, so I won't play until tomorrow at the earliest.

    Why the walls, justinious? We shouldn't ever fight to defend our cities, so they're essentially just wasted production, aren't they? Plus, culture gives as good a defense faster, generally. Walls have their uses, but it's not usually in core cities that have already built a couple culture buildings.

    More later,
    Arathorn
     
  16. Whosit

    Whosit Entropic Knight

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    Lurky Comments: Quick comment on Walls, since they are on my mind: The most significant benefit of walls is that they reduce the Bombard damage of Siege weapons, so the AI will spend longer just sitting there.

    Still, usually not a first priority build.

    As a lurker, I've been wondering why there isn't a lot of pre-set discussion. Clearly, the post-set discussion is there to help clarify what's happened, etc. Perhaps it would be helpful for all involved (and watching) to see a little more discussion and planning before each set, as it can help with the whole "planning things in advance" and "why am I taking this action" bits. I think you've hinted that you're aiming for a military victory (or at least total domination of your continent), but I am also wondering what your long-term goals are, or if you have any yet.

    Again, I commend the kids' use of pictures. Very illustrative and always nice to see. A few more words would be nice, too. ;) At least the Barbarian problems seem to be over with.

    Anyway, I seem to be commenting fairly frequently. I can be a more quiet lurker if I am stepping on anyone's toes.
     
  17. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Whosit, I love lurker comments.

    I can't speak for Rex, but I am having offline discussions with arkenstone about whats and whys. But I think more talking would be good. Part of the lack of discussion is driven by the weekend push of the game. Part is that the "boys" don't seem to like to write much. I'm reluctant to push arkenstone much, because I want the SG to be fun first and foremost.

    But, this is a good chance to ask some questions. Did Math finish? Did we do Currency or jump right into CoL? Why was that choice made?

    Do we have a strategy? Right now, I'm thinking the generic "Build up a strong nation and then decide how to win" approach. Workers, barb-busting, blockading to claim continent space. These are all very good things to learn about.

    I've not looked at the save yet (LotR27 got in the way), but those are some questions I have.

    Arathorn
     
  18. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    Yes, Justin and I talk about the game. I've been dialing back the fatherly advice, though, because he doesn't seem interested. I guess that's life.

    The CoL move was mine. I chose it over Currency largely because I figured we didn't have a lot of trade routes currently and we do have a lot of maintenance issues. However, I also didn't realize that Currency discounts CoL. I'm not seeing that documented. Is it just the extra money you get after Currency that makes it easier to research Code of Laws? Or maybe that the research price goes down after Currency because it's no longer a cutting edge tech?

    On Strategy, it's my opinion that we'll build up a military around Macemen and Trebuchets (Justin calls them Trench Buckets) and go claim our continent. From there, we'll have a better idea on victory route.

    However, my vote is to not have a possible space tie and need to nuke someone's capital on the last set.

    Edit: yes, math finished right before our economy went to zero. Sorry, I forgot to mention it. The econ at zero was another driver for me choosing CoL.
     
  19. Arathorn

    Arathorn Catan player

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    Any time the arrows on the tech tree point from one tech to another, doing the first tech gives a rebate (actually, I think it's bonus beakers, which amounts to about the same thing) on the one pointed to.

    If you look in-game or at http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/files/1/techtree_original.jpg, you'll see that Currency points to CoL.

    Currency gives at least one gold/city (if you have any kind of connection, which we should by now). CoL can give more, but you need to be able to build courthouses, which aren't cheap. Ultimately, of course, you need both. I'm not sure what current thinking is on which to get first but I tend to go for Currency unless I'm trying to found Taoism (which comes at CoL).

    Did we at least revolt to Representationism to get more beakers from our specialists?

    Arathorn
     
  20. Rex Tyrannus

    Rex Tyrannus 280lbs of gross stupidity

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    I intentionally did not revolt as I had just whipped the Pyramids for four population (and had also whipped our other populace cities) and we really didn't have any specialists yet. I'm fairly certain Justinious didn't as well.
     

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