Wodan
Deity
I think that's what's called "getting your comeuppance". 
Wodan
Wodan
Patch v3.13 change list
- Thread starter alexman
- Start date
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Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
I for one am happy to get some info and don't mind missed etas since I normally can't keep up to them myself
Apart from the installissues is there another update to the changelog?
and we can always spend our money elsewhere!
The feeling I got from this post was not one of explaining to the customer a problem. Instead it was closer to a parent chastising a spoiled child. To come back to a customer, regardless of how rude they may seem be, in this fashion is not very professional in my opinion.
First the product doesn't work, then the fix is delayed (and delayed), and now, in my opinion, less than professional customer relations...
What more can be said?
pholkhero
Deviant Mind
play a different game.What more can be said?
some people on here are just whiny b1tches ~ alexman, i don't think, posts here as a "firaxis" rep, but as courtesy, and, imo, can post in any fashion he likes ~
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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Ploeperpengel
academic precarity
and we can always spend our money elsewhere!
The feeling I got from this post was not one of explaining to the customer a problem. Instead it was closer to a parent chastising a spoiled child. To come back to a customer, regardless of how rude they may seem be, in this fashion is not very professional in my opinion.
First the product doesn't work, then the fix is delayed (and delayed), and now, in my opinion, less than professional customer relations...
What more can be said?
Maybe you should compare this to how namco supports Mark of Chaos. THEY keep entirely silent and delay their patches for months(and those patches are really poor compared to this one). If you prefer it this way continue ranting I'd say.
Unexpected problems happen to occur no way around this with games as complex as civ and you don't find many companies that deliver qualitypatches and stay in touch with the fancommunity like firaxis does nowadays.
I never said Alexman couldn't post however he likes. However, if I went on a forum about a product my company makes and made statements about that product, I would be viewed as speaking for my company. And besides, if he was speaking for himself what about the statement "We can keep totally silent, if you prefer"? Who is this we if not Firaxis?
As to "well.... it could be like company X". They could, and if they want to hold themselves to a lower standard, then so be it. And I can interact with those companies in the same manner, I don't buy their product. I personally found the post rude and not in the best traditions of customer service.
As a programmer, I have taken far worse abuse from customers. Demands and ideas that are far removed from the realm of reality (and I'm not QA or customer service). At the same time, I respect my customers enough to listen, take the comments as given, and return in a polite and thoughtful manner. They (the customers) are interested in our product, interested enough to care to give feedback (both good and bad), and in the end..... they are our customers.
All my post was saying was that I was shocked. Myself, my managers, or higher-ups in my company (and most other companies I would imagine) would be shocked too if one of our employees told a customer (in not so many words); I don't like what you're implying so stop it or we won't give you anymore information.
Perhaps a better approach would have been: I apologize for the misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that was a firm date for the release of the patch. We at Firaxis try very hard to give the most current and accurate information. But during our testings we found issues and made the decision to fix these outstanding issues instead of releasing a patch that was below our level of quality. Again, the dates that were issued were guidelines and not firm dates.
To me, that would have been a little nicer than.... Fine, we won't say anything.
Again, all of this is my opinion!
As to "well.... it could be like company X". They could, and if they want to hold themselves to a lower standard, then so be it. And I can interact with those companies in the same manner, I don't buy their product. I personally found the post rude and not in the best traditions of customer service.
As a programmer, I have taken far worse abuse from customers. Demands and ideas that are far removed from the realm of reality (and I'm not QA or customer service). At the same time, I respect my customers enough to listen, take the comments as given, and return in a polite and thoughtful manner. They (the customers) are interested in our product, interested enough to care to give feedback (both good and bad), and in the end..... they are our customers.
All my post was saying was that I was shocked. Myself, my managers, or higher-ups in my company (and most other companies I would imagine) would be shocked too if one of our employees told a customer (in not so many words); I don't like what you're implying so stop it or we won't give you anymore information.
Perhaps a better approach would have been: I apologize for the misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that was a firm date for the release of the patch. We at Firaxis try very hard to give the most current and accurate information. But during our testings we found issues and made the decision to fix these outstanding issues instead of releasing a patch that was below our level of quality. Again, the dates that were issued were guidelines and not firm dates.
To me, that would have been a little nicer than.... Fine, we won't say anything.
Again, all of this is my opinion!
Wodan
Deity
Actually, I thought that was very professional.
This is not a company press release, nor is this even a company-run forum. This is an informal discussion place, akin to the hallway of a game convention. Alexman is volunteering to share some information of which he is privy, and we have totally abused his good graces. He has systematically had words put in his mouth, been purposefully misinterpreted to achieve the worst impression, sarcastically replied to, his company vilified, and everything short of outright cursed. The behavior is exactly that of a spoiled child, and if someone did that to his face in the hallway of the game convention, that would simply be outrageous behavior that would not be tolerated in any civilized society.
We've been totally abusive of him, and I hope he can find it in himself to continue to come here for those of us who sincerely appreciate it.
Wodan
This is not a company press release, nor is this even a company-run forum. This is an informal discussion place, akin to the hallway of a game convention. Alexman is volunteering to share some information of which he is privy, and we have totally abused his good graces. He has systematically had words put in his mouth, been purposefully misinterpreted to achieve the worst impression, sarcastically replied to, his company vilified, and everything short of outright cursed. The behavior is exactly that of a spoiled child, and if someone did that to his face in the hallway of the game convention, that would simply be outrageous behavior that would not be tolerated in any civilized society.
We've been totally abusive of him, and I hope he can find it in himself to continue to come here for those of us who sincerely appreciate it.
Wodan
I think that's what's called "getting your comeuppance".
[Homer]No comeuppance. I said, no comeuppance!
Frallan_PrU
Chieftain
- Joined
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- 26
Ghost Ranger
Prince
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
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MrCynical
Deity
Well this has certainly been a nice mess... here's hoping next week will see the end of it. I don't think either side can claim complete innocence in this, but maybe a few lessons can be learned. Yes, there's been a lot of abuse slung round on this thread (particularly all the irrelevant rubbish about Take 2 and the stock market). That is not however an excuse to ignore all criticism of Firaxis or to fit them out with a halo.
In the thread which I strongly suspect sparked this, the issue if whether Firaxis should issue an ETA was debated at some length. Eventually Alexman did give us an ETA, and no it wasn't a deadline. As was pointed out in that thread, most people were fully capable of grasping that it was only an estimate, and so this mess didn't really begin to blow up until a week after the ETA. Kind of the point of an estimate is that it bears at least some resemblence to the real thing. Then this thread shows up, with the statement that the ETA would be missed, and the patch wouldn't be out that week, and things stayed fine. The snag was that (despite the apologists best efforts) that statement implied the patch would show up the following week. Not only didn't it show up, but there was no update, and that's where Firaxis blew it.
Excuses that the OP of this thread didn't imply the patch would be out that week don't hold water. When something is delayed and someone says they can't do it this week, anyone will reasonably assume they mean next. This isn't "putting words in someone's mouth", this is basic convention. Since Alexman was following this thread he'd have known full well what people had justifiably taken that statement to mean, and his lack of reponse would indicate that that is what he meant. In any case, the non conventional meaning - that the patch won't be out this week and we don't have a clue when it will be is not communication anyway. All you've done there is given an ETA and decided you won't meet it, and can't be bothered to make another (even though you're free to chooe any date from tomorrow till the end of time), and hence would be fully deserving of most of the critiscism in this thread.
As I've said, the Friday of the following week was where Firaxis blew it. It was the last possible day for their ETA. If they couldn't meet it, fine, but they should have told us that, and told us before the ETA was passed. We know what an estimate is. No we won't be that happy, but we're not going to vilify them for it. To give no update whatever was what blew this up, since we once again were left essentially with silence from Firaxis. A belated update, (on a completely different board, which didn't help matters), brought tempers back down somewhat, but two day of being totally in the dark would inevitably attract (and indeed warrant) some criticism.
Still, we trawl on through another week, waiting each day for the patch (and no apologists, "early next week" on a Saturday or Sunday does not imply at least 9 days) time, and then we hit the Friday again - and you really wonder what they're playing at. They knew full well that there needed to be some update that day if the ETA was being pushed back yet again, but once again they screw up. It had already been stated in this very thread. It isn't until the following day, with tempers on the boil, that some clue as to what's going on shows up. I'm therefore going to offer a little basic communications advice here:
1)An ETA is quite understood to be an estimate - however when it passes people expect a revised update if not the patch itself. This is basic courtesy. Giving an ETA, missing it, and saying nothing at all is worse than useless, and downright insulting. That quite simply says that the entire Civ community is not worth 30 seconds of someone's time. If you know you're not going to make it, tell us before the ETA passes.
2)In the interests of reducing future rows between the angry and the apologists, any chance of a date, or range of dates in the ETA? "The week beginning on date X" is unambiguous, and leaves no room for argument as to which week it is referring to, or any chance of "words being put in someone's mouth". Admittedly it leaves less scope for the approach of; if at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence you ever tried, but there's no point in communicating like that anyway.
3)There was no pressure on what ETA Firaxis gave. Many people were surprised at how long the three week one was, but no complaint was made. It may have been assumed some padding had been given. Evidently this was not the case. Failing to meet (or even get in the same month as) an ETA that they made themselves, is not impressive. Pick a realistic timeframe.
4)I think everyone here would prefer communications to be maintained. Silence (particularly on a much needed patch which seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time, based on the unofficial patch), is always irritating. Communications which are not correct, and then are not corrected are still worse though, as we are disappointed time and again, on top of being left with no clue when the patch will show up.
Now, I know Firaxis is not really forced to patch. Companies can and have ignored buggy games for years without censure. Threats of legal action or to take buisness elsewhere are ineffectual and childish. It is courtesy and desire to maintain a good reputation that result in patching, not legal force. That is just as well for Firaxis, since the shoddy communication and timeframe for this patch would not be tolerated in any situation where any real authority was involved. An employee who told their boss something was due the next week, didn't produce it, and ignored repeated enquiries as to what on earth was going on would be looking for a new job very rapidly.
This patch is, from Firaxis' point of view, about company reputation and customer relations, and hence my bafflement about this situation. A company which refuses to communicate cannot complain about being critiscised for that. A company that give an ETA, misses it, and says nothing, can similarly not complain about damage to its reputation. The way to maintain amicable relations with the community is not that complicated, and has been stated numerous times in this very thread; speak to us. We like communication, but it requires at least some effort on Firaxis' part to keep up the dialogue.
In the thread which I strongly suspect sparked this, the issue if whether Firaxis should issue an ETA was debated at some length. Eventually Alexman did give us an ETA, and no it wasn't a deadline. As was pointed out in that thread, most people were fully capable of grasping that it was only an estimate, and so this mess didn't really begin to blow up until a week after the ETA. Kind of the point of an estimate is that it bears at least some resemblence to the real thing. Then this thread shows up, with the statement that the ETA would be missed, and the patch wouldn't be out that week, and things stayed fine. The snag was that (despite the apologists best efforts) that statement implied the patch would show up the following week. Not only didn't it show up, but there was no update, and that's where Firaxis blew it.
Excuses that the OP of this thread didn't imply the patch would be out that week don't hold water. When something is delayed and someone says they can't do it this week, anyone will reasonably assume they mean next. This isn't "putting words in someone's mouth", this is basic convention. Since Alexman was following this thread he'd have known full well what people had justifiably taken that statement to mean, and his lack of reponse would indicate that that is what he meant. In any case, the non conventional meaning - that the patch won't be out this week and we don't have a clue when it will be is not communication anyway. All you've done there is given an ETA and decided you won't meet it, and can't be bothered to make another (even though you're free to chooe any date from tomorrow till the end of time), and hence would be fully deserving of most of the critiscism in this thread.
As I've said, the Friday of the following week was where Firaxis blew it. It was the last possible day for their ETA. If they couldn't meet it, fine, but they should have told us that, and told us before the ETA was passed. We know what an estimate is. No we won't be that happy, but we're not going to vilify them for it. To give no update whatever was what blew this up, since we once again were left essentially with silence from Firaxis. A belated update, (on a completely different board, which didn't help matters), brought tempers back down somewhat, but two day of being totally in the dark would inevitably attract (and indeed warrant) some criticism.
Still, we trawl on through another week, waiting each day for the patch (and no apologists, "early next week" on a Saturday or Sunday does not imply at least 9 days) time, and then we hit the Friday again - and you really wonder what they're playing at. They knew full well that there needed to be some update that day if the ETA was being pushed back yet again, but once again they screw up. It had already been stated in this very thread. It isn't until the following day, with tempers on the boil, that some clue as to what's going on shows up. I'm therefore going to offer a little basic communications advice here:
1)An ETA is quite understood to be an estimate - however when it passes people expect a revised update if not the patch itself. This is basic courtesy. Giving an ETA, missing it, and saying nothing at all is worse than useless, and downright insulting. That quite simply says that the entire Civ community is not worth 30 seconds of someone's time. If you know you're not going to make it, tell us before the ETA passes.
2)In the interests of reducing future rows between the angry and the apologists, any chance of a date, or range of dates in the ETA? "The week beginning on date X" is unambiguous, and leaves no room for argument as to which week it is referring to, or any chance of "words being put in someone's mouth". Admittedly it leaves less scope for the approach of; if at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence you ever tried, but there's no point in communicating like that anyway.
3)There was no pressure on what ETA Firaxis gave. Many people were surprised at how long the three week one was, but no complaint was made. It may have been assumed some padding had been given. Evidently this was not the case. Failing to meet (or even get in the same month as) an ETA that they made themselves, is not impressive. Pick a realistic timeframe.
4)I think everyone here would prefer communications to be maintained. Silence (particularly on a much needed patch which seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time, based on the unofficial patch), is always irritating. Communications which are not correct, and then are not corrected are still worse though, as we are disappointed time and again, on top of being left with no clue when the patch will show up.
Now, I know Firaxis is not really forced to patch. Companies can and have ignored buggy games for years without censure. Threats of legal action or to take buisness elsewhere are ineffectual and childish. It is courtesy and desire to maintain a good reputation that result in patching, not legal force. That is just as well for Firaxis, since the shoddy communication and timeframe for this patch would not be tolerated in any situation where any real authority was involved. An employee who told their boss something was due the next week, didn't produce it, and ignored repeated enquiries as to what on earth was going on would be looking for a new job very rapidly.
This patch is, from Firaxis' point of view, about company reputation and customer relations, and hence my bafflement about this situation. A company which refuses to communicate cannot complain about being critiscised for that. A company that give an ETA, misses it, and says nothing, can similarly not complain about damage to its reputation. The way to maintain amicable relations with the community is not that complicated, and has been stated numerous times in this very thread; speak to us. We like communication, but it requires at least some effort on Firaxis' part to keep up the dialogue.
Arlborn
Legendary Noob
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Messages
- 1,939
I must be dumb. Yes, dumb, ******** and idiot. Oh wait, I don't know English enough then, The guys from TOEFL lied when they gave me 90% in the final result.
So I am dumb, blind, ********, idiot and I don't know a piece of English, and that is why I didn't see any ETA for "next week" in the OP.
Solved the case here. The problem was me, not everybody else. Always the simpler, the better.
Let me get it straight then, he gave an ETA this time no? Early next week? Or maybe I read wrong again?
So I am dumb, blind, ********, idiot and I don't know a piece of English, and that is why I didn't see any ETA for "next week" in the OP.
Solved the case here. The problem was me, not everybody else. Always the simpler, the better.
Let me get it straight then, he gave an ETA this time no? Early next week? Or maybe I read wrong again?
bonafide11
Worker
Seems like there's some tension around here... Can't wait for Monday or Tuesday!
Jamesds
Great Scientist
Thanks very much, I do appreciate your correspondence (unlike some people here).
So, to all those who have been posting here in anger over the short wait - does it really mess up your life if Firaxis miss an Estimated Time of Arrival to polish up the patch further? Even if it takes another month, that's not very convenient, but it's only a game. Can't you let it rest if they make a mistake? Must they keep totally secret and silent just to avoid offending a few sensitive people? What is the big deal? Come on, I want to get to the bottom of this
.EDIT: OK, upon reading Mr Cynical's post, I guess your main complaint was the lack of communication? Well, I'd say that could have been better, but as alexman said - he is not posting as Firaxis, he is just posting as someone with some inside info. He isn't obliged (even though the usual etitquete might be otherwise) to give updates as a company would. He's probably wishing he didn't post, since things haven't turned out as he planned, ETAs have been missed, and he hasn't given updates (either intentionally or unintentionally) hence the surprising bursts of anger from folk here.
entwood
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2007
- Messages
- 187
Well, to know what we prefer would require a new POLL, so I am not sure who, specifically, is being asked. It probably goes without saying that the players here would prefer all valid information be provided to them relating to updates available for their game purchase so they can plan their gameplay, which is essentially what everyone here is interested in doing. The modder community would also like to build on the new base.
I am not at all sure why you ask or suggest that we, the players, would be interested in your silence or company silence on the matter. I am sincerely asking why you asked this question? such as what gave you that idea?
Wodan, is this really your opinion? I can't find any abuse and when we are ready to do so, I am sorry to say, is not professional.
That is fine. Then we just need to know how sincere, informed, and valid this information is, if possible.
Lets pretend alexman is really Alex Mantzaris - the lead designer of BtS - as claimed
he should be quite informed about what is going on...As for this whole thread and the patch issue, I do agree with MrCynical on this. However in doubt I will always prefer information over silence - it could have been communicated better though.
Jamesds
Great Scientist
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