Patronage versus Commerce

Athenaeum

Prince
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Saying you're aiming for a DV, and you have to choose between the two policy trees, because after adopting Tradition, Rationalism and Ideology, you'll barely have time for anything else.

In this case which do you usually go for? I understand it probably depends on the Civ. Please give your opinion on these civs though:
Sweden
Venice
Arabia
Morocco

...any other Diplo-suited civ you can think of.

With Sweden I think Patronage is obviously the better choice, whereas with Venice it's Commerce. But for other Civs I think it's less clear or more open to opinion.
 
Well if you're aiming for a diplomatic victory usually Patronage wins out although there are some exceptions, notably Venice. The opener to Patronage gives you access to the Forbidden City which apart from giving you 2 delegates also gives you a lot of extra happiness.
But for some of the civs you mention Commerce can actually be more favorable.

Sweden: I don't think it really matters that much - probably Patronage because adopting all policies gives you free Great People that you can donate to CSs.


Venice: Definiately Commerce - you need Mercentalism so your purchasing power in cities increases. Entrepreneurship also works really well the Venice UA so the Merchant of Venice can get tonnes of gold from diplomatic trade missions.
If you still struggle with achieving a diplomatic victory Freedom can give you a citystate ally for every trade route you have so I don't think Patronage is that essential.

Arabia & Morocco - I think for a DV Patronage is best.
 
Yeah the Treaty of Organizations tenet (or whatever it's called) is insane, that is probably one of my favorite tenets, if not the favorite.

What about the Dutch?
 
Yeah the Treaty of Organizations tenet (or whatever it's called) is insane, that is probably one of my favorite tenets, if not the favorite.

What about the Dutch?

Hmmm I don't really see how the Dutch UA is really relevant to any specific victory condition so I'd say that Patronage is strongest for a DV. It's really only Venice I think that needs Commerce because of the discounts to spending gold in cities. But then Venice would also do really well out of Patronage with the influence boost to Citystate gold. But because Venice will be puppeting many of its closest Citystates I think early Patronage is a waste for them.
 
With Dutch, I didn't necessarily mean for a DV, but just in general. I feel that they are one of the few civs that might want to devote considerable time to filling out Commerce.
 
The thing about Patronage is that the bonuses of its later-level policies are quite negligible compared to how much culture you have to put into them. The opener is great because the slower decay is a huge bonus, while Forbidden Palace is a great all-round wonder. With the exception of maybe the policy that grants more influence from gold gifts, all the policy bonuses are negligible compared to the bonuses of policies in other trees: resting influence is useless if you're looking to get city-state allies (consulates + papal primacy + pledge to protect is enough to keep you permanently friendly, but that's it), the science boost from city-states ends up being a roughly 5%-8% boost (comparable to the science boost from Mercantilism, and that's before we consider how Mercantilism also lets you purchase science buildings cheaper), +2 gold from CS trade routes is almost worthless since internal trade routes are so much more useful, strategic resource quantity doubling is not that useful for a DV, bonus happiness from CS gifted luxuries is flatout worse than Commerce's bonus happiness from all luxuries, and gifted great people happen so rarely and are so inconsistent that you're better off just going Commerce and using the extra money to buy yourself GPP-boosting buildings. Even the influence boost from gold gifts doesn't compare well to Commerce: with the gold booster, you're effectively getting +25% gold from gold spent on buying city-states, while Commerce can give you +25% gold no matter what you spend it on.

With the exception of the Patronage's opener, Commerce is not only better for DV, but it's generally an all-round better policy tree: the only bad policies in it are Entrepreneurship (since generating Great Merchants pushes back the cost of future Great Engineers and Great Scientists as well as other other Great Merchants, so Great Merchant Points are actually a penalty) and maybe Mercenary Army (Landsknechts will have been phased out by the time you pick this up, so it's only really useful for Poland, who can upgrade Landsknechts to Winged Hussars, the only Lancer units that aren't terrible).

There are quite a few strategies for DV with Sweden that I can think of. For example, you can use a Great Prophet to convert cities three times, then gift it to a city-state for influence (even though it has only one charge remaining). Another one I've heard of had the player picking up Warrior Code in Honor and not completing that policy tree, then gifting all of the excess Great Generals they earned through war to city-states. That said, you're usually better off using most Great People instead of gifting them, even if you're going for a DV (Scientists let you reach Globalization faster, Engineers let you rush key wonders, Prophets can be planted to generate faith to purchase Scientists later).

Venice is an odd one: because you can't settle cities, you're entirely reliant on the map generator giving nearby city-states the land you need. Even with their UU Great Merchant, the gold generated from performing a trade mission isn't enough to make up for Great Merchants pushing back your Great Scientist and Great Engineer counters.

A few DV-style civs you missed out on: Greece (UA is built for DV), Poland (you can pretty much play them any way you want, their UA is that ridiculous), Siam (UA is built for maximizing CS allies), any science civ (Korea, Maya, and Babylon, Egypt and India to a lesser degree) because you reach Ideologies, key Wonders (eg. Forbidden Palace), and Globalization sooner, and maybe England (extra spy for that extra vote from Globalization).
 
I tried using Prophets three times then gifting them, and that didn't work. In fact, I tried gifting brand new prophets and it didn't work either.

In the Immortal file I just won with Venice, I was 1st in Science until the very end, and I only got maybe 3 or 4 the whole game. I got a lot of science from Porcelain Tower + Rationalism policy + Research Agreement's.
 
(Landsknechts will have been phased out by the time you pick this up, so it's only really useful for Poland, who can upgrade Landsknechts to Winged Hussars, the only Lancer units that aren't terrible).

Funny you mention this I've tried going down Mercenary Army and Mercentalism as Poland with the intention of buying heaps of Landsknechts and I found that even with the cheaper cost I could almost never afford to buy them reguarly enough to make it worthwhile. I was that short on gold until the modern era :rolleyes:

That said I did find an alternative use. If you're doing late game war not only can they be upgraded to Anti-tank guns through the Hussars as Poland but you can also swarm them around the AI as cannon fodder. Essentially that means you're preciously upgraded helicopters from Hussars are pretty safe so long as your covering them with Landsknechts.
 
For not-Venice Diplo, Patronage is better than Commence because of its in-for-a-penny in-for-a-pound quality.

After the opener, the +20 point resting point is very strong, but only if you get it early (before starting any quests or gifting).

Well, at that point, you want the +25% cash bonus before any gifting. And, since it is just one more pick, it is faster to get that than the general cash bonus from Commerce. And gifting to CS is one of the best uses of gold.

Now the science bonus policy unlocked, and it quite sweet, as it is a stronger science boost than anything outside of the Rationalism tree.

Well now then, that sweet happiness policy is unlocked. Outside of Ideologies, it stronger happy boost than anything other than the Commerce finisher (which is now postponed to be so far away...).

Now all that is left in patronage is that relatively worthless +2 gold for CS trade routes. Oh, but that unlocks the random GP!
 
Funny you mention this I've tried going down Mercenary Army and Mercentalism as Poland with the intention of buying heaps of Landsknechts and I found that even with the cheaper cost I could almost never afford to buy them reguarly enough to make it worthwhile. I was that short on gold until the modern era :rolleyes:

That said I did find an alternative use. If you're doing late game war not only can they be upgraded to Anti-tank guns through the Hussars as Poland but you can also swarm them around the AI as cannon fodder. Essentially that means you're preciously upgraded helicopters from Hussars are pretty safe so long as your covering them with Landsknechts.

Try getting that policy with Venice. The thing is that the landschknechts are not just cheap pikemen, they also can pillage tiles without movement cost (heal + gold) and take gold when they attack a city. With Venice's awesome gold, and the extra gold you can get from using landschneckts, you'll find that sometimes you can actually start snowballing them.

Commerce becomes available in Medieval Era, so I see no reason why you couldn't rush that policy as soon as you get to Medieval, and make the most out of it while you can.
 
I've been going for DV with every civ and I'm almost done, and I think I may have used commerce instead of patronage once. I think I'll try commerce in my next game, it appears to be better than I thought.
I know Forbidden Palace doesn't matter because I usually win with 5+ votes to spare, but it will be strange to attempt a diplo victory without it.
I've also tried using Honor or Exploration in addition to Liberty/Tradition, Rationalism, and Patronage, and it makes for a longer game but it can be very fun.
 
Try getting that policy with Venice. The thing is that the landschknechts are not just cheap pikemen, they also can pillage tiles without movement cost (heal + gold) and take gold when they attack a city. With Venice's awesome gold, and the extra gold you can get from using landschneckts, you'll find that sometimes you can actually start snowballing them.
They also keep those promotions on upgrade, even though they do upgrade into the most useless unit in the game, the Lancer. It's why I mentioned Poland, since their Winger Hussar is the only Lancer unit that isn't terrible thanks to free Shock I (kept on upgrade!) and higher combat strength (plus the forced retreat thing can be hilarious at times). Sipahis are still fairly useless (the +1 movement doesn't make that much of a difference considering how weak they are anyway), especially since Landsknechts already have the free pillage promotion that Sipahis get. In the case of Hakkapeliittas, their strength bonus is essentially worthless in practice (remember that +15% strength on their 25 base strength when they are stacked with a general brings them to 28.75 strength compared to Winged Hussars' 28 base strength + free Shock promotion that also doesn't require them to be stacked on top of a unit that you'll want to keep behind the frontlines), and their movement donation bonus, while actually useful, kind of makes it pointless to keep more than 2 or 3 around depending on how many Great Generals you have, so upgrading a large army of Landsknechts into them has the same effect as upgrading into an army of Lancers.

Commerce becomes available in Medieval Era, so I see no reason why you couldn't rush that policy as soon as you get to Medieval, and make the most out of it while you can.
If you play your science game correctly, you'll enter Medieval before you finish your first policy tree, so you might not even get the chance to unlock two policies before entering the Renaissance (Rationalism!). If you sacrifice science for early culture to rush Landsknechts, then it doesn't matter how quickly you unlock Landsknechts, your (human) opponent will be knocking on your door with 6 crossbows and a knight before you can even purchase your first two Landsknechts. Most of the time (in multiplayer), Landsknechts are used as gold-purchased pikemen so that your cities can focus their hammers on crossbows and the odd knight or two. It's certainly not as bad as the non-starter Patronage policies, but it's not a stupendous bonus, either.

I've been going for DV with every civ and I'm almost done, and I think I may have used commerce instead of patronage once. I think I'll try commerce in my next game, it appears to be better than I thought.
I know Forbidden Palace doesn't matter because I usually win with 5+ votes to spare, but it will be strange to attempt a diplo victory without it.
I've also tried using Honor or Exploration in addition to Liberty/Tradition, Rationalism, and Patronage, and it makes for a longer game but it can be very fun.
Patronage policies' bonuses all seem good on paper, but prove to be inferior to Commerce in practice. For example, 25% more influence from gold gifts sounds neat, since it mean's you're essentially getting +20% gold by not having to spend as much gold to gain the same amount of CS influence, but Commerce's policies will easily get you an empire-wide +25% gold at least. City-state quests also grant you a silly amount of influence, so much so that I often don't even have to spend gold to maintain CS allies (in multiplayer). The bonus science from CS allies sounds great on paper (extra science, yay!), but in practice, the actual science amount you get is almost nothing and is easily surpassed by the science you get from gold buildings with Mercantilism. Extra happiness from gifted luxuries sounds great, except that Commerce's last policy gives the same amount of extra happiness from all luxuries, not just ones gifted by CS allies. Etc. Etc.
Honor is only really good for Warrior's Code, all the other policies' effects aren't worth it for their direct and indirect culture costs (direct culture cost from spending a policy point, indirect culture cost from increasing the culture cost of Rationalism policies and ideological tenets because of how policy costs scale with unlocked policy count). Maybe the opener is good with Raging Barbarians, but yeah, that's all I can think of.
Exploration is generally fun because it is most viable when you're running a coastal Liberty, and I find that Liberty games tend to be more fun than Tradition ones. You usually pick it up for the +Happiness from Lighthouse, Harbor, and Seaport and the flat +3 hammers on coastal cities; the opener's +1 mobility and sight on naval units is a nice bonus, but not an incredible one (it certainly becomes better if you stack it with other bonuses, like Great Lighthouse or England's UA). All the other policies in the tree are fairly terrible for the same reason as Honor's later policies: their culture cost simply isn't worth the middling-to-negligible bonuses they give. Caveat: my experience is primarily with multiplayer, so Exploration's finisher may be incredible in singleplayer, I honestly cannot tell you.
 
If you sacrifice science for early culture to rush Landsknechts, then it doesn't matter how quickly you unlock Landsknechts, your (human) opponent will be knocking on your door with 6 crossbows and a knight before you can even purchase your first two Landsknechts .... Caveat: my experience is primarily with multiplayer

Yeah, MP is totally different game than SP. Was OP asking about MP DV?

I've been going for DV with every civ and I'm almost done, and I think I may have used commerce instead of patronage once.

I am doing the same thing, but with SV. DV seems pretty straightforward to me. People say that about SV, but it is still a struggle for me.

I think I'll try commerce in my next game, it appears to be better than I thought.

Mostly DV comes down to timely gifts to CS, so money. How could the commerce tree not work extremely well for DV? But for optimal play, aside from Venice, how could any tree be better than patronage when aiming for DV from the start? It is not really the Forbidden Palace (which I miss most games), but how the SP stack. After Rationalism and your Ideology, for DV any spare SP picks are best put into Patronage.

I've also tried using Honor or Exploration in addition to Liberty/Tradition, Rationalism, and Patronage, and it makes for a longer game but it can be very fun.

IMHO, this is the one of the best reasons to aim for DV. You have flexibility to play around without really compromising your potential to win. I feel much more locked in with my SV attempts.
 
Looking at the policies in patronage, the only things that are actually useful towards winning diplo is philanthropy and the opener. The other policies give bonuses that vary in effectiveness but don't actually contribute that much towards the victory.

1. scholasticism is pitiful in science yield.
2. consulates doesn't give you ally status, but is good as a filler if you're not going for diplo
3. cultural diplomacy gives more happiness and strategics but that's after you achieve ally status
4. merchant confederacy won't make your trade routes with CS more profitable than with other civs.

IMO if you're going diplo, just getting philanthropy is perhaps more value for your policies. then go commerce if you have treaty org already.
 
Looking at the policies in patronage, the only things that are actually useful towards winning diplo is philanthropy and the opener.

I disagree as Consulates is very, very useful towards DV -- But if and only if you get it early. It is useless once you have friend or ally status. I agree that it is a strong policy for any game.

I agree that the other three policies don’t actually contribute towards DV, and that (of those three) only Cultural Diplomacy is that strong on its own. That said, the finisher is great, and better sooner than later.

IMO if you're going diplo, just getting philanthropy is perhaps more value for your policies.

I think that is correct only if you have be mostly ignoring CS until late game for the DV. But CS as game-long allies is strong play for every game.

then go commerce if you have treaty org already

Once you have Treaty Org, is not the DV in the bag? Mercantilism is two picks after opening Commerce, so going Commence after Treaty Org does not make sense to me.
 
4. merchant confederacy won't make your trade routes with CS more profitable than with other civs.

I don't know if it's the level, the speed, the map size, or just the way I play my games in general, but I always find that MC makes the CS TR's more profitable than the AI TR's.
 
I disagree as Consulates is very, very useful towards DV -- But if and only if you get it early. It is useless once you have friend or ally status. I agree that it is a strong policy for any game.

I agree that the other three policies don’t actually contribute towards DV, and that (of those three) only Cultural Diplomacy is that strong on its own. That said, the finisher is great, and better sooner than later.

consulates give huge benefits, I admit. but they don't guarantee ally status, and you still have to throw gold at CS. It's good when you have city states that you haven't met and can get higher influence quickly, but in the early-mid game the allies are maintained through quests more than gifts.

Once you have Treaty Org, is not the DV in the bag? Mercantilism is two picks after opening Commerce, so going Commence after Treaty Org does not make sense to me
It should be an easy victory, and commerce provides gold bonuses that are probably more relevant than patronage points. also just in case alex is in the game and has 300 influence on a bunch of CS.

I don't know if it's the level, the speed, the map size, or just the way I play my games in general, but I always find that MC makes the CS TR's more profitable than the AI TR's.
I don't think what you're experiencing is consistent. Assuming that you can get one more lux/strat difference with a CS, that's 0.5G extra before modifiers, and since 5% of gold output of the destination city is added to the income, the AI city would have to make less than 10 gold more than a CS city for it to be worth less in raw value. I guess it depends on which cities you send to, but in general the AI makes way more money than CS

Also if you went to wagon trains you'd get +2 gold from land trade routes.
 
I would go commerce if you are entrenched in a war or plan on getting into a prolonged war very soon because gold will be essential to fielding a large army and making offensive roads.

Patronage if you are at peace and going for a relatively peaceful game with no needs for excess cash other than to buy CS.
 
also just in case alex is in the game and has 300 influence on a bunch of CS

Alex actually makes DV a challenge! Yes, in that case just Philanthropy from Patronage get Treaty Organization ASAP. Actually, if I am not Venice (w/ 2x routes), I think I would probably give up DV plans! Venice is extra nice, since any CS that can't be swayed can be MoVed!
 
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