Pawlenty signs state smoking ban

Sure there is, it's called pleasure. I don't know if you know this, but cigarettes taste good.

Not in my opinion they dont. I hate them. Kissing a woman that smokes is like sticking your tongue in an ashtray. Plus, people that are heavy smokers have no idea that they reek of the smell...and it truly does stink.

Individual tastes vary, so you might not find certain kinds of cigarettes good, just like I hate Marlboros but love much stronger brands. And yes, there is such a thing as smoking in moderation. What if one only smokes five cigarettes a day? Not every smoker is a pack a day, or two to three like I am.

Now we see why you are cigarette biased. Your addicted.

It's true. Most smokers do not die of tobacco related diseases. Look it up.

Errrr. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/Factsheets/cig_smoking_mort.htm

For Christ's sake, I'm not saying that smoking is good for you, or that it isn't bad for you.

Well, I think its basically a fact that its bad for you.

What I am saying is that there are hundreds of things the average person does to himself in his daily life that could one day kill him, but why bother to whine about every single one?

But out of all of them, smoking probably impacts his life expectancy more than any other thing.

The kind of people that cough and wheeze loudly as they briskly walk past you without having inhaled even the slightest whiff, or walk up to you and tell you that smoking is disgusting.

Did you ever consider that cigarette smoke actually makes some people cough and wheeze loudly?
 
Not in my opinion they dont. I hate them. Kissing a woman that smokes is like sticking your tongue in an ashtray. Plus, people that are heavy smokers have no idea that they reek of the smell...and it truly does stink.

How would you know? Aren't you happily married or some crap like that?


Could be just me, but I don't see anything anywhere on that page that says that most smokers will die of tobacco related diseases.

I don't feel compelled to respond to the rest of your post since it was completely devoid of anything worth responding to.
 
Could be just me, but I don't see anything anywhere on that page that says that most smokers will die of tobacco related diseases.

I don't feel compelled to respond to the rest of your post since it was completely devoid of anything worth responding to.
And to retread old ground, thats like saying that most people wont die after 2 rounds of Russian Roulette/most people don't die in a warzone
 
You ignored this:

Ladies, it's a personal decision to smoke. If somebody makes that decision, it's not disgusting, it's not despicable, for you do just as many things to yourself that are as harmful if not more. Quit whining, and move on with life. Smokers are adults (at least most of us) and we're able to make responsible decisions about what to do with our own bodies. If you don't want to be around smokers, go somewhere else. Don't try to push your twisted sense of responsibility on us, just go somewhere else. Smokers do not intrude on your personal space when they're standing on a street corner, outside their place of work, or on their apartment patio having a puff. I've met thousands of smokers in my lifetime, and they're great people, salt of the Earth. Whiny self-righteous anti-smokers, on the other hand, are some of the biggest pricks around. The kind of people that cough and wheeze loudly as they briskly walk past you without having inhaled even the slightest whiff, or walk up to you and tell you that smoking is disgusting. Go away, stop trying to push your strange set of ethics on other people.

And this:

Sure there is, it's called pleasure. I don't know if you know this, but cigarettes taste good. Individual tastes vary, so you might not find certain kinds of cigarettes good, just like I hate Marlboros but love much stronger brands. And yes, there is such a thing as smoking in moderation. What if one only smokes five cigarettes a day? Not every smoker is a pack a day, or two to three like I am.

Anyways, I'd love to debate with a brick wall PP some more right now, but I have things to do.
 
cigs dont taste good, there are just varying shades of bad that are more palatable than others and your addiction justifies taste.
 
To the first point: I'm not arguing this from a second-hand smoke perspective. Second-hand smoke largely is not as dangerous as Teh Hype makes it out to be. I'm arguing this from a "You don't have the right to hurt yourself and then foist the costs on society" perspective. And wherever there is not a gray area (again, like alcohol, which can be healthful if you're mature enough to be moderate) the gov DOES have the right to intervene and protect public health and health costs.

To the second point: rat poison is sweet (don't believe me? try some). And "only" five cigs a day? wow.
 
Could be just me, but I don't see anything anywhere on that page that says that most smokers will die of tobacco related diseases.

However...this one does: http://www1.worldbank.org/tobacco/tcdc/fact_sheets/FastFacts&Myths.pdf

MYTH: Most smokers do not die from smoking.
Those who do die in old age, when they are at the end of
their lifespan anyway.
TRUTH: Half of all long-term smokers will eventually be
killed by tobacco, and of these, half will die during
productive middle age, losing 20 to 25 years of life.

That good enough for you?

Here is another myth you put forth debunked:

MYTH: Smokers always bear the costs of their
consumption choices.
TRUTH: Smokers impose certain costs on non-smokers.
Evident costs include health damage, nuisance and
irritation from exposure to environmental tobacco smoke.
Recent reviews in high-income nations conclude that,
despite their shorter lifespans, smokers’ lifetime health
care costs do exceed those of non-smokers. If health care
is paid for by the public sector, smokers will impose their
costs on others.
 
Even if not paid by the public sector.

Healthcare is rationed, every doctor taking care of some lung cancer patient is removing himself from curing diseases and treating patients who would get good care if some people didn't make stupid life choices.

Just like car accidents impose a healthcare cost on the public, that's partly why we "regulate" (OH MY NOES, HERE COMES THE EBIL GUMMINT) the roads.
 
steel workers dont make a fuss due to fear of losing their job. it doesnt make it right does it? also given the US's stance on unions theyd be DOA. Simply even talking union is grounds for dismissal.

and you're making the error in thinking fear of greater loss doesnt mean lack of caring. its a false dichotomy to say that either do this, or you dont really care.

Who replaces the workers who are sacked because they don't like the smoking policy?

I'm not saying that people outright don't care, all I'm saying is that there are channels through which changes can be brought about, if people cared enough to put the effort in - unions, going to a different pub, consumers not buying products created through unsafe working conditions (do you remember the boycott of South African goods not so long ago?). Moaning to the government and voting on nationwide legislation is not one of those channels. Having the majority determine the fate of the minority is exactly what our democracy was intended to prevent.

The truth is, it's a lot easier to pass a bill in parliament than it is to change your own lazy habits, get off your bum, and petition your workplace for a smoking ban.
 
Even if not paid by the public sector.

Healthcare is rationed, every doctor taking care of some lung cancer patient is removing himself from curing diseases and treating patients who would get good care if some people didn't make stupid life choices.

Just like car accidents impose a healthcare cost on the public, that's partly why we "regulate" (OH MY NOES, HERE COMES THE EBIL GUMMINT) the roads.

Such as absailing or rockclimbing?

Are you trying to tell me that we should be banning "dangerous" activities, on the basis that the "genuinely" sick are not getting treated?

What illnesses, in your opinion, deserve treatment?

To say that a person does not deserve to be treated, and should be left to die, is utterly despicable. Disgusting.
 
You ignored this:

Ladies, it's a personal decision to smoke. If somebody makes that decision, it's not disgusting, it's not despicable, for you do just as many things to yourself that are as harmful if not more. Quit whining, and move on with life. Smokers are adults (at least most of us) and we're able to make responsible decisions about what to do with our own bodies. If you don't want to be around smokers, go somewhere else.

You're right, smoking is a personal choice. Do it all you want, I don't care. But the second that you assume it is a right to expose me to dangerous chemicals for the the sake of your enjoyment, I gain the right to point out that you are wrong. Quit whining, and move on with your life. If you don't want to hear about it, go somewhere else.


Don't try to push your twisted sense of responsibility on us, just go somewhere else. Smokers do not intrude on your personal space when they're standing on a street corner, outside their place of work, or on their apartment patio having a puff.

Don't try to push your blantant disregard for good health on us, just go somewhere else. It is very arguable that smokers intrude on my personal space when on a street corner, or outside my place of work. These are spaces that I can't go around to get to work, and I would rather not walk through your smoke.

You can smoke outside all you want, just do it out of the way somewhere. Like, not 2 feet outside the door, which in many cases is also illegal.

I've met thousands of smokers in my lifetime, and they're great people, salt of the Earth. Whiny self-righteous anti-smokers, on the other hand, are some of the biggest pricks around. The kind of people that cough and wheeze loudly as they briskly walk past you without having inhaled even the slightest whiff, or walk up to you and tell you that smoking is disgusting. Go away, stop trying to push your strange set of ethics on other people.

I've met thousands of smokers in my lifetime, and many of them are giant douchebags about what they do, and like to assume they have a right to smoke. Whiny, self righteous smokers, and there are a lot of them, are the biggest pricks around. The only reason it appears to be different to you is because we are on opposite sides of the fight. In closing, Go away, stop trying to push your strange set of chemicals on other people.

I don't know if you know this, but cigarettes taste good.

That's fine, but I don't really see what that has to do with anything.

What if one only smokes five cigarettes a day? Not every smoker is a pack a day, or two to three like I am.

5 cigs a day is still a fair amount from the pov of a non-smoker. And two to three packs a day is absolutely awful. I actually feel sorry for the people who have to be around you during all this.
 
Pasi Numinem said:
Smokers do not intrude on your personal space when they're standing on a street corner, outside their place of work, or on their apartment patio having a puff.

Drivel. Given that one of the many things smoking damages is your sense of smell, I can only assume that as a smoker you don't realise how bad it smells. Even outside a smoker can be smelt from at least 20 feet away, and further if you're unfortunate enough to be downwind. Get within about 5 feet and the smell reaches the point where breathing itself is unpleasant, and it begins to adhere to clothing.

Go away, stop trying to push your strange set of ethics on other people.

Highly hypocritical from someone who considers it their right to push their carcinogens and foul stench on innocent bystanders.

As to the healthcare issue I have mixed views. The approach of taxing cigarettes to compensate for additional healthcare costs seems viable, though I feel treatment should come with the stipulation that a smoker quit smoking.
 
In Seattle now they have speakeasys. No joke. They have a latch on the door that opens up and you have to say the code word, and girls have to wear dresses and guys have to wear suits (preferably prohibition-era styles), and they sell booze without a liquor license and everybody smokes and they have piano and a burlesque show. Mainly up on Capital Hill if anybody is familar with Seattle.
 
And this:

Sure there is, it's called pleasure. I don't know if you know this, but cigarettes taste good. Individual tastes vary, so you might not find certain kinds of cigarettes good, just like I hate Marlboros but love much stronger brands. And yes, there is such a thing as smoking in moderation. What if one only smokes five cigarettes a day? Not every smoker is a pack a day, or two to three like I am.

The only reason why you think they taste good is because you are most likely addicted to nicotine, especially if you smoke pack(s) a day. Cigarettes taste horrible, and dont have any mind altering affects such as alcohol or weed. The only reason why people smoke so many is because of addiction.
 
To say that a person does not deserve to be treated, and should be left to die, is utterly despicable. Disgusting.

Yep, it is. Wait, where did I say that? ;)

I said that people who smoke get cancer, and people getting cancer who otherwise would not have = an added stress on our healthcare system.

In other words, smokers are imposing a cost on society, something Pasi has consistently denied w/o backup.

It's not a tangential point, either, because that is reason enough to ban nicotine and other addictive hard drugs like cocaine, etc.

All these drugs do is produce wrecks of people and then we as a society pay for it.

Not to mention the law and psych issues associated with having part of your citizenry addicted to a poisonous chemical.

Ultimately, all that separates a crack addict who commits murder to get money for more crack, and a smoker who will do the EXACT same thing for another smoke, is that cigs are legal and cheap.
 
You're right, smoking is a personal choice. Do it all you want, I don't care. But the second that you assume it is a right to expose me to dangerous chemicals for the the sake of your enjoyment, I gain the right to point out that you are wrong. Quit whining, and move on with your life. If you don't want to hear about it, go somewhere else.

Stop pissing and moaning because you are "exposed" to a tiny whiff of cigarette smoke for two seconds as you are walking down the street. You will not get cancer from that, and if you find it so disgusting and/or cough and wheeze from a split second exposure to a tiny amount of cigarette smoke, go see a doctor, NOW. You obviously have some very serious mental and/or physiological health problems.

Don't try to push your blantant disregard for good health on us, just go somewhere else. It is very arguable that smokers intrude on my personal space when on a street corner, or outside my place of work. These are spaces that I can't go around to get to work, and I would rather not walk through your smoke.

Once again, quit whining. When you are "exposed" to a tiny whiff of cigarette smoke for two seconds, you will not get cancer and die. If you seriously have to find a new way to walk to work just because you might pass a smoker along the way and for a split second be exposed to cigarette smoke, you have truly serious issues that only professionals can take care of. A smoker out in the open air does not intrude upon you because you don't like being exposed to the smell for a couple of seconds. Why not turn your wrath on people with halitosis? People that don't shower enough? Why don't you go whine about the absence of subsidized deoderant? Why don't you complain about piston engined cars, which pump far more hazardous chemicals into the air in a single half hour drive than I will in a lifetime of smoking two packs a day? You certainly ingest far more cancerous chemicals from them than you do from passing a smoker while walking to work.

You're whining about passing a smoker on the way to work. If you're going for stupid, why not go all out?

You can smoke outside all you want, just do it out of the way somewhere. Like, not 2 feet outside the door, which in many cases is also illegal.

Once again, said smoker is doing you no harm unless you stand two inches in front of him and actively try to inhale as much smoke as you can.

I've met thousands of smokers in my lifetime, and many of them are giant douchebags about what they do, and like to assume they have a right to smoke. Whiny, self righteous smokers, and there are a lot of them, are the biggest pricks around. The only reason it appears to be different to you is because we are on opposite sides of the fight. In closing, Go away, stop trying to push your strange set of chemicals on other people.

Someone on the street you pass on your way to work is not pushing anything on you. It's clear that you're the kind of person that only thinks about yourself, and doesn't give a damn about anyone else. The evil smoker that is standing outside just puffing straight up into the atmosphere, how dare he do something that might, for just a second, make you feel slightly uncomfortable. How dare he do something that might make an overly sensitive and mentally unstable person find a new way to walk to work.

Seriously, have you read what you've posted here? You're whining about a smoker that you might pass on the way to work and ingest harmful chemicals and be exposed for half a second to the smell. I smell far worse things in my daily life than cigarette smoke, we all do, why aren't you whining about them? You're really grasping for straws here.
 
Ultimately, all that separates a crack addict who commits murder to get money for more crack, and a smoker who will do the EXACT same thing for another smoke, is that cigs are legal and cheap.

You're really out to lunch, aren't you? I come from a city where even in the suburbs people have to step over crack and heroin addicts on their way to work, and I've never seen anyone murder someone to buy cigarettes, spend entire paychecks on tobacco, or alienate themselves from their entire circle of friends and family because of their habit.

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Because of said legal and cheapness.

I've never seen anyone loose their house in penny-slots either.
 
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