[LP] Persona Spotlight: Harald Hardrada (Varangian)

[Alex Vance]

I have a subtle yet persistent feeling that he's going to be really, really strong.

He has spent so long being subpar. I think they saved his alt version for last because they're going out with a bang.

 

[kryat]

I have a subtle yet persistent feeling that he's going to be really, really strong.

He has spent so long being subpar. I think they saved his alt version for last because they're going out with a bang.

I’d personally love a bonus like all naval melee ignore walls, but also take 50% more damage from ranged units.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I have a subtle yet persistent feeling that he's going to be really, really strong.

He has spent so long being subpar. I think they saved his alt version for last because they're going out with a bang.

Being a varangian, I suspect it'll be something related to joint wars/mercenary action. Maybe you can promote units for half price in an ally's land, or something.

 

[shaglio]

Being a varangian, I suspect it'll be something related to joint wars/mercenary action. Maybe you can promote units for half price in an ally's land, or something.

Maybe they will something with levying armies, but somehow make it different from Stephen of Hungary. Just some quick thoughts: longer levy duration, Combat Strength bonus for levied units, or keep the levied units for full duration even if no longer Suzerain.

EDIT: I, of course, meant Matthias of Hungary. I haven't played that civ in so long I forgot his name, as well as the specifics of the Levying ability.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Disappointed in this guy.
No synergy between the abilities, and the ability is very RNG-based in that when it's at its best (early ancient/classical era), the chances of becoming (and staying) suzerain of a good city state near your target is pretty slim and outside of your control.
Mid- to late game this ability is extremely weak.
You can fund your own army at that point, and getting some 32 science and culture for killing a cuirassier (and only with levied units at that) at a time when you should passively be raking in several hundreds per turn anyway, is just outright terrible.
Old Harald is much, much better than this guy, who is shaping up to be the worst leader in the game now.

Will not play, ever.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

You can fund your own army at that point, and getting some 32 science and culture for killing a cuirassier (and only with levied units at that) at a time when you should passively be raking in several hundreds per turn anyway, is just outright terrible.

Glad someone else realizes that those kill yields are so slim.

 

[tedhebert]

Disappointed in this guy.
No synergy between the abilities, and the ability is very RNG-based in that when it's at its best (early ancient/classical era), the chances of becoming (and staying) suzerain of a good city state near your target is pretty slim and outside of your control.
Mid- to late game this ability is extremely weak.
You can fund your own army at that point, and getting some 32 science and culture for killing a cuirassier (and only with levied units at that) at a time when you should passively be raking in several hundreds per turn anyway, is just outright terrible.
Old Harald is much, much better than this guy, who is shaping up to be the worst leader in the game now.

Will not play, ever.

While I agree with your assessment of the value of the bonus for killing units, in my mind that’s secondary…It’s just not the main strength of this leader… just a nice little bonus.

I DO think that extremely cheap levying (not to mention free with foreign ministry, which would make it a first time choosing this for me) would fit extremely well with a very aggressive dom game… Is it situational ? Yeah, certainly, but what isn’t ?

Being myself a player that plays the CS game very much but rarely levies, I’m intrigued to try this one

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

While I agree with your assessment of the value of the bonus for killing units, in my mind that’s secondary…It’s just not the main strength of this leader… just a nice little bonus.

I DO think that extremely cheap levying (not to mention free with foreign ministry, which would make it a first time choosing this for me) would fit extremely well with a very aggressive dom game… Is it situational ? Yeah, certainly, but what isn’t ?

Being myself a player that plays the CS game very much but rarely levies, I’m intrigued to try this one

I wouldnt have a problem with having reduced levy cost, if the ability gave a clear domination advantage (other than the units) or tied nicely together with the civ ability.
But on both accounts, it doesnt, and old Harald is just the superior domination leader here.

Other domination civs do have a lot more consistent strengths - Shaka will get super strong corps when you take that city, Basil is more or less guaranteed a religion even on Deity (and steamrolls from there), Nubia will always be able to archer rush and Genghis can set up the hostile trade route whether his target wants to or not.
These are all strong and consistent advantages that either start a snowball or stay consistent throughout a domination game.

Now for Harald: Sure its nice being able to levy for fraction of the usual cost, but there is nothing really more to it.
No increased combat strength or similar, and the civ ability makes pretty much zero sense when paired with the leader ability.
Yes you can sail across the world early to levy on another continent.
But I would much rather be able to pillage for high and useful yields like old Harald (with those levied troops), than seek out a fight for really bad yields, which will just get me hated across the world for no real benefit.

 

[Tom the Mime]

He's playable with Secret Societies allowing you to get the earlier governor title getting Amani up soon and barb hunting with levied units can give you a quick start before the death yields become a lot less relevant. Suits a religious game okay as it lets you focus on holy sites while still making decent science and culture progress. With secret societies off and missing out on most of the time where the leader ability is actually relevant...

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

He's playable with Secret Societies allowing you to get the earlier governor title getting Amani up soon and barb hunting with levied units can give you a quick start before the death yields become a lot less relevant. Suits a religious game okay as it lets you focus on holy sites while still making decent science and culture progress. With secret societies off and missing out on most of the time where the leader ability is actually relevant...

This is my gripe with it - a leader shouldnt have to be played with a certain mode just to be viable.
I personally dont play with SS enabled for the obvious reason that it breaks the game even more.
But even in this particular case (early suzerainty through Amani), I don't see why anyone would want to play Varangian Harald.
The yields are absolutely lousy, to the point that it would be more beneficial for the player to just pillage the closest target instead (assuming you play with the other Harald).
Sure they can be decent if you get suzerainty very early and manage to kill a unit every 2-3 turns, but even assuming this (questionable), the yields are only good... and not great/fantastic.

Personally I think the player would be better off playing this particular style (levying units) with the "old" Harald, and use those units to pillage the closest neighbour.
It will repay itself quickly enough to offset the -75% levying cost, and the yields from pillaging are astronomical compared to the nonsense we get here.

Very disappointed with what Firaxis designed here, but I guess it's time to stop beating the dead horse that is Varangian Harald and just let the cadaver rot in piece.

 

[AntSou]

Are you sure the yields are slim? 32 science and 32 culture and 32 faith from killing a single unit? Even if you discount faith, that's 64 science/culture per unit, which doesn't sound bad?

The AI is more willing to create new units than fix their pillaged tiles though. That's an issue I often found with vanilla Harald.

I'll play him this weekend and see how it goes.

 

[Kwami]

Are you sure the yields are slim? 32 science and 32 culture and 32 faith from killing a single unit? Even if you discount faith, that's 64 science/culture per unit, which doesn't sound bad?

The AI is more willing to create new units than fix their pillaged tiles though. That's an issue I often found with vanilla Harald.

I'll play him this weekend and see how it goes.

Early on, it's 10 of each yield for killing a Warrior, right? That's pretty great when you're making 5-10 Science/Culture per turn. And, sure, you aren't guaranteed to be suzerain of a city state early on. But, I find that I usually am if I want to be.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Early on, it's 10 of each yield for killing a Warrior, right? That's pretty great when you're making 5-10 Science/Culture per turn. And, sure, you aren't guaranteed to be suzerain of a city state early on. But, I find that I usually am if I want to be.

If you aren't too picky about which city-state, getting a single envoy, then adding the city-state governor lady is enough for your first suzerain. Levy their troops and go to town

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

Are you sure the yields are slim? 32 science and 32 culture and 32 faith from killing a single unit? Even if you discount faith, that's 64 science/culture per unit, which doesn't sound bad?

As Kwami pointed out, early those yields are ok, as they can equal an entire turn worth of science and culture.
But my example of 32 science and culture was referencing a Cuirassier kill.
Whenever I fight AI Cuirassiers, I'm already at that point in the game where I'm around the Industrial or later era myself, meaning that I usually have at least 200 science and culture per turn, often a lot more.
At that point, a unit kill is worth at best one tenth of a turn worth of research (or far less even), which is for all intents and purposes, nothing.
Hence this ability scales awfully with eras, being decent'ish in the Ancient and early Classical eras, and more or less worthless later on.
For a domination type leader, that's a pretty damn weak selling point.

I should also point out that I play almost exclusively multiplayer against the AI and never have SS on.
Hence, I get no early envoy for being the first to meet an AI, and no super early governor.
Meaning the levy gimmick in this case is somewhat iffy.
And if I can't properly utilize this ability in the ancient/early classical era, Varangian Harald is for all intents and purposes the worst leader in the game right now.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

That's pretty great when you're making 5-10 Science/Culture per turn.

Yes, early on. However, in the mid and late game, the yields fall off. Science and Culture per turn scale much faster through the eras than combat strength.

At that point, a unit kill worth one tenth of a turn worth of research (or far less even), which is for all intents and purposes, nothing.

Yes. I did the math.

Take this example: you're in the Industrial Era making +100 Science and Culture per turn. The Industrial Era melee unit is the Line Infantry, with 65 combat strength. Killing that Line Infantry as Varangian Harald will yield 32.5 Science, Culture, and Faith, roughly a mere third of your Science and Culture per turn. For reference, Steam Power, an Industrial Era tech, costs 805 Science. Those kill yields are only 4% of the tech cost, meaning it would take you 25 kills to complete a single Industrial Era tech.

And, let's not forget that you're not going to be killing a unit every single turn, and that this only applies for time-limited levied units.

By contrast, pillaging in the Industrial Era can earn you +100 Science or Culture, and maybe more!

I'm with Harald's defenders emotionally. I wish this ability was stronger since it sounds super fun! Maybe make it scale better by era? Same applies to Gorgo's ability. If you're forced to rely on city-state armies and pursue Domination with them, it better be worth your time.

Also, I understand that by the Industrial Era, you're probably snowballing out of control in a Domination game, so the negligible yields don't matter. However, during the early game, when they do matter, they're a little contradictory- you aren't the one building the units so unlocking upgrades isn't as useful. Sure, you can upgrade the levied units, but at that point you're already paying extra for them so why not just build your own up-to-date units or play Matthias? Faith- even if it can be used to buy units using the Grand Master's Chapel- is also contradictory, since you want to be levying units, not building your own. Culture makes the most sense since it progresses you towards Corps and Armies.

 

[AntSou]

At that point, a unit kill is worth at best one tenth of a turn worth of research (or far less even), which is for all intents and purposes, nothing.

that Line Infantry as Varangian Harald will yield 32.5 Science, Culture, and Faith, roughly a mere third of your Science and Culture per turn

That just doesn't sound very "mere" or "nothing" to me. That's a city's worth of yields for a single unit.

By contrast, pillaging in the Industrial Era can earn you +100 Science or Culture, and maybe more!

So, the same? And if you exclude faith, it's still only 33 more in total. And opportunities for pillaging are usually more limited.

And this is already in the Industrial era. I have no issue with suzerainties in the medieval or renaissance.

But like I said, haven't played yet, will have to see for myself, though the numbers you're showing don't look bad to me.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

If you're forced to rely on city-state armies and pursue Domination with them, it better be worth your time.

Also, I understand that by the Industrial Era, you're probably snowballing out of control in a Domination game, so the negligible yields don't matter. However, during the early game, when they do matter, they're a little contradictory- you aren't the one building the units so unlocking upgrades isn't as useful. Sure, you can upgrade the levied units, but at that point you're already paying extra for them so why not just build your own up-to-date units or play Matthias? Faith- even if it can be used to buy units using the Grand Master's Chapel- is also contradictory, since you want to be levying units, not building your own. Culture makes the most sense since it progresses you towards Corps and Armies.

That's my problem with the ability in a nutshell, yes.
Levying is already in that awkward spot of having a very niche use.
If you ever find yourself in that position that you need an army, right now, at this particular location, you failed to prepare for that situation.
Especially so for a domination civ, that should have different armies spread out in all directions anyway, and with GMC never struggle to field a ground based army to begin with.
If this was intended for defensive playstyles (where you need to raise a defensive army asap), maybe, but otherwise this gimmick makes no sense.
Either you pillage your neighbours for high yields, or you use your beefed up main army to subdue your opponents and take their lands, but raising minor armies across the world just to go skirmishing for worthless yields, no thanks.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

That just doesn't sound very "mere" or "nothing" to me. That's a city's worth of yields for a single unit.

It's still rather bad.
When you're not even shaving off a single turn off of your late game research, but you trade all good domination type abilities for that gimmick, you're getting a horrible tradeoff.
Heck, it would be bad even if it applied to your own units as well.
The fact that it only applies to levied units makes it absolutely trash tier.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

It's still rather bad.
When you're not even shaving off a single turn off of your late game research, but you trade all good domination type abilities for that gimmick, you're getting a horrible tradeoff.
Heck, it would be bad even if it applied to your own units as well.
The fact that it only applies to levied units makes it absolutely trash tier.

My feelings aren't quite as strong, but the ability just doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[Oberinspektor Derrick]

My feelings aren't quite as strong, but the ability just doesn't seem worth it to me.

I mean it's ok in the ancient/classical era if you can get an early suzerain and get a fast invasion going on your neighbour, as that would snowball a deity game quite hard.
If you can't, well, you're stuck with the ability to sail across oceans earlier.