Phaedo's 1st basic skills training game: patience required

[Bucephalus]

Before anybody plays, I think that we need to discuss triggering the GA; it seems to have become a fait acclompli that we will do it now.
I remain to be convinced either way but let's not be hasty, and talk about this.

 

[mr_2_you]

i'm in favor of triggering it asap:

1)it will allow us to crank out cossacks
2)we can get magnetism faster... which means bigger boats that can cross ocean squares
3)i get to initiate it on my turn

 

[Bucephalus]

i'm in favor of triggering it asap:

1)it will allow us to crank out cossacks
2)we can get magnetism faster... which means bigger boats that can cross ocean squares

1) Waiting until our cities are working more squares will allow us to crank out more, faster.

2) There is no point in rushing to Magnetism; to avoid paying unit support to a large force of Cossacks we need to coincide the two events ie. the Invasion force is ready just when we are ready to transport it.
Which IMO is two good reasons to delay our GA.

 

[Salarakas]

I'm in favor of starting the GA now.

GA means extra shields and extra commerce. Extra commerce means we get to astronomy faster. Extra shields means we can crank lots of cossacks out while waiting for caravels. I think we might just as well stop research altogether once we get astronomy and rush the caravels needed. The AI will fold quickly when we unleash 3 cossack armies. We don't need magnetism and galleons.

 

[mr_2_you]

1) Waiting until our cities are working more squares will allow us to crank out more, faster.

i'm at work and cannot open the save... do the AI conutries have gunpowder yet? i'd rather take cossacks up against pikemen that musketmen.

2) There is no point in rushing to Magnetism; to avoid paying unit support to a large force of Cossacks we need to coincide the two events ie. the Invasion force is ready just when we are ready to transport it.
Which IMO is two good reasons to delay our GA.

we can disband ancient cavalry as we build cossacks, keeping our unit support costs the same.

 

[Aabraxan]

1) I've gotten sick and may need a skip this round.

2) Who's left on our continent? I think it's just the Arabs, right? If it's just them, then we can pretty much trigger our GA whenever we want to. First, let me say that timing the GA is not exactly my strong point. That said, I think I agree with Buce on waiting for the GA.

3) Here's why, while I don't think we will need privateers or frigates the game, I'd sure like to be able to transport loaded armies, rather than getting them piecemeal on the other continent.

4) Until we get galleons, any armies that we've already loaded are stranded on our continent.

 

[mr_2_you]

if you guys want me to play tonight, i'm going to need a consensus soon about the golden age......

 

[Salarakas]

Personally I don't see any point in waiting as it will only make the game longer.

It's true that unless we load a 4th unit into our MI-army we could transport it using a galleon. However, we already have 3 empty armies waiting for cossacks and we don't need galleons for those.

Here's what I had in mind for the invasion... start off by capturing (or raze/replace) that American town on that island east of our continent. Then move bucketloads of boats filled with the couple of muskets that we have (and I believe there was a pikeman somewhere as well), a settler, 3 empty armies, artillery and many many many cossacks onto a hill tile. If/when we get attacked the next IBT, the muskets/pikeman should absorb some damage before the cossacks would have to defend. Then... form a beachhead town, load the armies with 4 units each and start advancing like mad. I don't think that having the MI-army there as well would help us that much other than absorbing the initial AI attack against our stack. We need to research 2 more techs for galleons as well.

Astronomy is only 3 techs away and should not take more than 20 turns, at least if we kick off the golden age in 9 turns. Then if we switch off research completely and upgrade the galleys (only 30 gold each) or cash rush some new caravels we could start the attack in 25 turns. We should have plenty of cossacks by then as well.

Edit: none of the AI have gunpowder yet. Germany has invention though so it won't take long before they do have it.

 

[mr_2_you]

Aabraxan and Bucephalus vote to wait on the golden age.

Salarakas and mr_2_you vote to initiate golden age when peace expires with arabs in 9 turns.

phaedo votes.......?

 

[Salarakas]

If you want/need to play now you could play the 10 turns and NOT declare war on the Arabs yet. Phaedo could then decide whether to attack with the cossacks or not.

 

[Phaedo]

Alright, I don't really think it matters too much at this point. In general I think it is better strategy to wait, however in the interest in a fast win, I'll vote for the earlier GA. I think we'll end up haveing a bunch of cossacks draining our money and waiting around for us to get our boats up and running but I may be wrong. Let's pull the trigger in 9 and see what happens. If that is the plan though, top priority should be maxing out the core and getting more cities down to help with the unit upleep. That's your job Mr_2

 

[mr_2_you]

i'm on it.

 

[mr_2_you]

(warning: i'm not sure how much detail you guys want in this thing .... but i figure with my newbness, the more detail the better)


no screenies, sorry. i'm already up way later than usual and i don't have image hosting set up yet. next turn, i promise!!!!

turn 0 - 550

it seems things were left to me in good order. i hit enter.

turn 1 - 560 AD
rostov finishes marketplace, starts musketman
vladivostok finishes baracks, starts musketman
move catapults to baghdad for future assault on last arab city
move vet MI towards fishing for eventual disbandment
found a galley out in the middle of the ocean... wish me luck! found land N-NE!
i decide not to toss more galleys into the ocean until later
i can reduce science to 70% and still finish military tradition in two turns

IBT - we lose galley N-NE

turn 2 - 570
MM rostov so no more clown!
2 galleys built
begin roads to SE pennisula
galley movements on new continent


IBT - we learn military tradition, i pick up chivalry.
our people want to build a military academy!
just kidding, we're going for theology in four turns

turn 3 - 580 AD
rotterdam finished marketplace, starts barracks
we finish a galley and a settler
i realize i haven't spoken to anyone in a while so....
*roman down monotheism and engineering
*germany down monotheism and gunpowder
*america down monotheism and invention
i briefly toy with the idea of setting up some embassies, but decide not to to save $$$.
found city of samara - start building trebuchet (???)
some worker movement.... they're either building roads or mining grass
galleys movement on other continent... rome has iron for sure (pikes) but america has spears, maybe no iron
switch most musketmen to cossack, will get first cossack in four turns
tyrana, lugdunum get a scientists to maintain harmony

IBT - nada

turn 4 - 590 AD
smolensk finishes marketplace, only 7 shield (2 corrupt) production so it builds cannon
misclick causes worker to waste a turn irrigating desert. sorry!
quick check reveals that germany has gunpowder learned
zzzzt

IBT - romans don't like us surfing their waves, we say we will leave
some cultural expansion

turn 5 - 600 AD
yakutsk finshes marketplace, builds cossack
some cats/trebus arrive in baghdad
rome and america have been at war at least once, rome owns detroit
there are now a bazillion cats in baghdad.
kadesh gets a scientist, turn science to 60% still get theo in 2 turns

IBT - nada

turn 6 - 610 AD
krasnoyarsk finishes harbor, begins barracks
orenburg finishes aquaduct, builds marketplace
found city arkhangel'sk, builds worker (???)
disband a sword in fishing village
turn science to 50%, theo in 1 turn
riverton gets a scientist, growth in 20 (is there a better way?)

**
i jack up the lux slider to 20%, we lose the oracle next turn
lugdunum gets another scientist

IBT - we learn theology, education in 4 turns with science at 70%
the oracle is now obsolete (riots all OVER the place so i went back in time to do **)


turn 7 - 620 AD
we get our first cossack, moves towards arabs
they love the czarina!!!!
adana, agedincum, kadesh all grow to size four. they will have to ge a clown until the workers connect them to luxuries in the next turn or two.
we have 634 gold, i consider embassies again.
then i think about rushing a barracks or two, but don't because i think we're trying to save $$$.
i keep lux at 20% so we don't haveto cut back on the pentagon.

IBT - nada

turn 8 - 630 AD
more cossacks produced
tyrana finishes marketplace, builds barracks
riverton finishes courthouse, starts cannon (no barracks, poor shield output)
i put some columns in front of the palace
more worker movement, chopping some jungle further away from core
tyrana no longer needs scientist
lugdunum has two scientists, but we finish a settler next turn
no change in techs, arab peace treaty renegotiable next turn

IBT - germany dislikes our explorations. i apologize

turn 9 - 640 AD
rotterdam finishes barracks, builds cossack
lugdunum produces settler, i think i already have all the red dots occupied.....
our cossacks are still 2-3 turns away from reaching the arabs. lucky bastards.
found chelyabinsk right next to arabs, build harbor (tundra on coast)
kadesh and adana get hooked up to lux, lose clowns
lux at 20%, sci at 50% we're still at +63 per turn

IBT - we finish pentagon
germans building sun tzu's

turn 10 - 650 AD
iron town to build cossack
yaroslv'l finishes courthouse, builds barracks
lugdunum gets a scientist
war declared on arabs, i move cats / trebs into range. our attacking force has 3 elites in it and two cossacks on the way. i *think* they'll be able to attack on the next players turn.

our cossacks still not close enough to arabs, but their time will come

i'm not sure how much of a mess i made for he next player. i became very paranoid after the oracle expired, i'm not sure the lux slider has to be at 20% but i'm too chicken to take it back down. i added a couple towns, explored the other continent a bit and played my first ten turns ever without automating anything (i usually play regent). so guys, please let me know hwat i can do better next time.


alright kids, here's my first succession game saved turn ever.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106064/phaedo01v1-mr_2_you-_650AD.SAV

 

[Phaedo]

It looks like you did pretty well Mr.2. I didn't look closely at the save but at first blush it seems you have a couple of slaves mining land down by the Arabs. Those towns are totally corupt and won't profit from an extra shield. It would be better to irrigate all that and use the city pop as specialists.

As for the lux slider, we could reduce it to 10% with hiring 3 specialists and switching a beaker head to a clown (you can look at the Domestic advisor screen to see which cities would be in danger of disorder. There is a happyface mod that makes it quite easy to see). At the point of your save it doesn't really matter as we have lots of cash (that's a nice change!). I might have pumped out settlers before muskets but I don't think it's a big deal.

Congrats on your first completed set

Here's a general question; Why did we have to wait for our eace treaty to expire? No one will know we broke a treaty with the arabs except us right? I'm not in a rush to kill them, just wondering

 

[Salarakas]

Are you sure you're only a regent level player? That looks like an excellent turnset and you had clearly read all the previous turnlogs well and knew exactly what the situation was and what we wanted.

found chelyabinsk right next to arabs, build harbor (tundra on coast)

I think this was perhaps your only mistake during the whole set (at least according to the notes). The town is totally corrupt so the harbor will do little good. If the land around it is just tundra and coast it won't be able to support more than 1 scientist/taxman regardless of how big we let it grow. Without looking at the save I'd switch the build to either a settler or a galley.

Here's a general question; Why did we have to wait for our eace treaty to expire? No one will know we broke a treaty with the arabs except us right? I'm not in a rush to kill them, just wondering

Well... In succession games it's a custom to do so unless the game starter (you!) states otherwise. Keeping the reputation and playing honorably and some such like that

Another unwritten "rule" is that ROP-rape is forbidden. That means signing right of passage with an AI, moving tons of troops next to his cities and then declaring was. With good planning and execution (and enough troops) you can wipe out entire civs the same turn you declare war on them.

 

[Phaedo]

I was just curious. I am correct in assuming that it wouldn't have affected our rep with the other continent though right? I always it was rep for future trading that made it important to fulfill treaty obligations. Is ROP-rape considered an exploit or just bad form (I used to use it in solo PTW games years ago but that was before I even considered reputation)?

 

[Salarakas]

I must admit that I'm not an expert in the whole reputation thing but I believe you are right.

I'm not sure if exploit is the right word for ROP-rape considering that the AI sort of does it all the time - they never seem to declare war until they have troops inside your territory. They are just not very effective at it It's just way too powerful in human hands.

 

[mr_2_you]

thank you both for the feedback so far.

the first 2-3 turns were a little rough, but as time went by i got better at figuring out what to do. my main complaint is that i couldn't figure out a good way to see the number of happy/conent/unhappy citizens. i know there is a way to see the happy/content number, but that doesn't do much good without seeing that total population or number of unhappy citizens in that city.

my major disappointment was having to return to a previous save (basically, cheat) when the oracle expired.

funny how the subconcious works... this morning when i woke up, one of my firs thoughts was... iron town is still starving, i could've changed some tiles around and maybe dropped the lux slider.

regardless of the reputation, i didn't see a point in finishing off the arabs until i had a cossack to trigger our golden age. war has been declared, but the honor of initiating the golden age will belong to the next player.

so was i right in not establishing embassies?

 

[Bucephalus]

my major disappointment was having to return to a previous save (basically, cheat) when the oracle expired.

Am I the only one with a serious ethical problem with this?

 

[Aabraxan]

Congratulations on your first SG turnset, Mr_2_you.

Overall, it looks like good. I haven't looked at the save at all, only the turnlog. Hopefully, I'll get to do so today. With as much gold as we've got, I would have gone ahead and established embassies, but that's nothing that can't be changed later.

On a good way to see happy/content citizens, I use the F1 screen and investigate those cities that look like they're in danger of riot. Do you have CivAssist II or Mapstat? They're very handy.

On deal-breaking and reputation, I just assumed that the other AIs would know of our treachery, but I don't know that for sure.

And to answer Bucephalus, no. I'm disappointed with the return to a previous save, too. My understanding of SGs is that you take your lumps and live with them.