[GS] Phoenicia Discussion Thread

[DJ_Tanner]

I really hope they thought this through. I foresee a lot of bugs with this civilization. So many things are tied to the continent your capital is on.

I am pretty sure they designed this civ with exactly those in mind. Wording will be important as home is likely different than current, but other than that there shouldn't be any issue with how they work. Now if the players understand what happens when they move is another story.

 

[Josephias]

Based on Ed's tweet, it appears domination does not work on Dido's new capital. It is also interesting that the art team created 3 separate capital icons.

Just to point out, this is already available in R&F: The tree "different" icons are: White star on white circle. White star on void circle. Void star on white circle.

 

[Ziad]

The policy cards both say original, I’m not sure about the wonder

Ah you're talking about a few policy cards explicitly (the Colonial ones).

I mean considering your current capital quite literally moves with the Palace, you would basically make for some supercities on other continents regardless. The benefit is still there.

So if you found Carthage on a distant continent (for example) then move your Palace there later, it not only gets all the capital bonuses but also the colonial bonuses.

 

[King Rad]

Dd th Phncn lphbt hd ny vwls?

I think you misspelled 'hd' - think it should have been: Dd th Phncn lphbt hv ny vwls?

 

[IvoryPavane]

If the cards and other bonuses are linked to the original capital continent, I feel even more underwhelmed. That would make the move capital project more interesting. Moving only for loyalty flipping or protection is not something I like, but that is just my gameplay style.

There are still a lot of bonuses tied to this, the palace brings housing, amenities and production to a city. Not to mention 2 production per orange city state. It allows Dido to get a capital off to a flying start, stabilise it’s housing, amenities and production and then move capital again.

I think it will be indeed powerful, but it will require a different approach. Which I love

 

[Ziad]

I think you misspelled 'hd' - think it should have been: Dd th Phncn lphbt hv ny vwls?

They didn't have vowels but they didn't think they needed them. They had phonetic rules that applied to their words much like most languages today. Vowels are frankly pointless. Just look at English. Pray tell what the point of a vowel is when you think of "rough" and "dough" and "uncouth"... don't get me started on "a" and "e" and "i".... and do we really need 30 words for one thing?

K I should start working now .. lol ...

 

[AriochIV]

I'm disappointed there's no bonus to maritime trade (beyond the small bireme buff), the very foundation of Phoenician civilisation.

There is, though it's not mentioned verbally in the video. Founder of Carthage gives "+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and the Government Plaza district."

Not sure whether this is a typo, or Phoenicia also gets another Trade Route cap for the district itself.

 

[Alexadamz]

There are still a lot of bonuses tied to this, the palace brings housing, amenities and production to a city. Not to mention 2 production per orange city state. It allows Dido to get a capital off to a flying start, stabilise it’s housing, amenities and production and then move capital again.

I think it will be indeed powerful, but it will require a different approach. Which I love

I know it can be good. But most of the times the cost will be higher than anything you can get. To move your capital, the city must have a Cothon, and even if it is a cheaper Harbor, you still will need some hammers, and the district costs go up the more of the same district you have on your empire. Most of the times the costs will be too high to justify the capital change. But that is just my 2 cents, without the expansion out.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, so given the "original capital" vs "current capital" distinctions, looks like a lot of the cheese with the civ won't be possible. Still most important points:
-Does the palace move when you move it with this mechanism?
-What happens to Palace great work slots?
-Does Apadana apply to the current cap or the original?
-Do Autocracy yields move?

And then the general part of the civ:
-How do you best manage the prod bonuses? Do you wait to get Cothons up to start your settler migrations?
-Do you go for the government plaza earlier, to get those bonuses sooner?
-How much can you abuse the loyalty powers?
-How expensive is it to move the cap, and is that going to be a strategy you use multiple times? Or is it more of a niche situation if you end up on a continent border, for example?
-Internal routes or external ones?

 

[Ziad]

I know it can be good. But most of the times the cost will be higher than anything you can get. To move your capital, the city must have a Cothon, and even if it is a cheaper Harbor, you still will need some hammers, and the district costs go up the more of the same district you have on your empire. Most of the times the costs will be too high to justify the capital change. But that is just my 2 cents, without the expansion out.

If you aren't using your gold or faith to buy Cothons you are doing it wrong

And I think the project is there so you don't abuse it, because there are a LOT of benefits to moving your palace and capital. So you should do it where it makes sense, in somewhat developed cities rather than a fresh 1 pop city.

And since you can 'somewhat' develop cities with gold and faith alone, you really don't have to wait all that much. Get that gold.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Exactly, as soon as you get a government district and Cothon going you are going to pump out settlers like there's no tomorrow.

Their early game city spam will be the source of those bonuses.

I'm not sold on the Settler bonuses being hugely powerful. I'll typically pump out 5 to 6 Settlers before I'd build my first district. Yes, Phoenicia may make me re-think that strategy and consider building a Cothon before building some/all of those Settlers. But that will slow down getting those new cities in place, which slows down how quickly they grow, etc.

The settler bonus comes at the cost of building a Harbor which you do not want and comes late in tech tree. You are probably better off just building settlers right off the bat.

I suspect this, too, but I guess we'll see.

 

[CivLuvah]

I think you misspelled 'hd' - think it should have been: Dd th Phncn lphbt hv ny vwls?

Thnks fr th crrctn!

 

[Lord Lakely]

There is, though it's not mentioned verbally in the video. Founder of Carthage gives "+1 Trade Route capacity for each Government Plaza building and the Government Plaza district."

Not sure whether this is a typo, or Phoenicia also gets another Trade Route cap for the district itself.

I think they do, in which case the boost is better than Mali's and Englands. Carthage can very easily get +2 Trade route Cap in the Classical Era.

 

[bbbt]

The issue to me is there 'early game settling' bonuses basically require celestial navigation (to build the cothon) and shipbuilding (to be able to embark settlers) to be able to maximize, which make them a lot less early game.

The loyalty on the same continent thing to me is a bit weird given their original location had them building cities on multiple continents. Going to be a bit weird in a TSL map.

Coastal cities are still weaker, and she doesn't get any additional bonuses. They could have given the Cothon additional housing or something at least.

 

[Ziad]

I'm not sold on the Settler bonuses being hugely powerful. I'll typically pump out 5 to 6 Settlers before I'd build my first district. Yes, Phoenicia may make me re-think that strategy and consider building a Cothon before building some/all of those Settlers. But that will slow down getting those new cities in place, which slows down how quickly they grow, etc.

You still put out settlers. You also get a continuing bonus throughout the game and you'll want to found a lot of cities as Carthage for naval, economic, and loyalty purposes.

So you still should build a couple early on. Settle your Byblos and your Sidon in those first few imperative locations quickly, then focus on developing your cities before going all out.

50% production is a lot considering settler costs increase significantly as your city count grows. You can essentially also avoid having to take monumentalism for that early game expansion and go with Free Inquiry.

 

[CivLuvah]

Vowels are frankly pointless.

Says someone who's first language (I assume) is Arabic, which originally only had consonants.

 

[IvoryPavane]

I'm not sold on the Settler bonuses being hugely powerful. I'll typically pump out 5 to 6 Settlers before I'd build my first district. Yes, Phoenicia may make me re-think that strategy and consider building a Cothon before building some/all of those Settlers. But that will slow down getting those new cities in place, which slows down how quickly they grow, etc.




I suspect this, too, but I guess we'll see.

I think her playstyle will call for considerably more settlers as she seems to be about aggressive expansion. So her settler bonuses might be more useful on her than most.

I most excited about the settlers movement and sight, as movement bonuses are always low-key powerful

 

[Ziad]

Says someone who's first language (I assume) is Arabic, which originally only had consonants.

My first language is spoken Lebanese not Arabic. I didn't learn Arabic til I went to school.

Funny enough I'm more fluent in English than Arabic. Most Lebanese are more fluent in English or French than written Arabic unless you work in journalism or law. It's hilarious.

But yes, it's still part of the same language group and we don't need consonants at all!

In fact I frequently lost grades in Arabic class forgetting to use the marks (which are basically vowels)

 

[Alexadamz]

If you aren't using your gold or faith to buy Cothons you are doing it wrong

And I think the project is there so you don't abuse it, because there are a LOT of benefits to moving your palace and capital. So you should do it where it makes sense, in somewhat developed cities rather than a fresh 1 pop city.

To faith or gold buy districts is a feature for end game. That is why I say I feel it will be of limited use. If the capital move needs all that and can't work with those cards or wonders that give bonuses to other continents cities, then I don't think they reward that much for the cost to prepare a city for that.

 

[IvoryPavane]

The issue to me is there 'early game settling' bonuses basically require celestial navigation (to build the cothon) and shipbuilding (to be able to embark settlers) to be able to maximize, which make them a lot less early game.

The loyalty on the same continent thing to me is a bit weird given their original location had them building cities on multiple continents. Going to be a bit weird in a TSL map.

Coastal cities are still weaker, and she doesn't get any additional bonuses. They could have given the Cothon additional housing or something at least.

I think they have said that coastal cities are going to be stronger in GS, so that will hopefully help dido and her coastal peers. (Before they are drowned in a cocktail of CO2, water and salt)