Pick Up Artists

[Masquerouge]

I'd have thought that a camera would scare girls off. Cameras give the idea of actors (and fakery).
If someone chatted me up whilst being filmed I would guess that I was being part of a comedy or documentary about how gullible and easy people are. I would be quite cautious.
On the other hand, I would be more curious, and I'd be more willing to give out some contact details for a meeting without a camera. I don't know what these films tend to show.
Girls in particular would be more worried about appearing to be easy on camera.

Well my impression is that the camera would have appealed to a certain segment of the population easily impressed by any sort of celebrity, but now I can see how it could to the opposite...

 

[JohnMarshall12]

I have to admit, I've been fascinated by pick-up artists ever since that guy who shot up a gym near Pittsburgh turned out to have attended a seminar. The subculture -- the "seduction community" -- is tremendously interesting. The detail with which they craft their strategies (see MeteorPunch and Arwon, supra) is incredible and reveals a ton about how they view themselves and women (hint: they don't like them). (I don't mean to suggest that all people who do this stuff don't like women, but there's a strong theme of misogyny in a lot of the seduction community.) Here's their schtick: you learn some methods to trick women with low self-esteem into sleeping with you.

I think this goes too far. The issue isn't misogyny. The issue is control. Basically, these guys teach other guys to be in control of these relationships rather than letting the women make the rules. Obviously, this type of dynamic would normally benefit men more than women because they are in control or at least feel more in control. I think the "hate" which you pick up on is more from the resentment from guys who don't want to play by the women's rules (ex. been hurt in the past) as they feel manipulated.

The interesting thing I see is that they are really just turning the tables and it obviously works for them. Since most guys work with a "plan mindset", I think this helps a lot of guys be more confident as they have clear objectives. There is no question there is manipulation, but it may not be "bad manipulation" just depends on the objectives of the guy. I also think that some of this stuff goes a long way towards removing layers of the crap that often gets in the way of dating and meeting people. Plus, it does give guys experience with women which does mean they are that much more prepared when the right girl comes along.

 

[downtown]

I'm not jealous...but I honestly rarely have trouble hanging out with women. The kinds of people the PUA community seems to go after aren't the kinds I am interested in.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

What do you guys think of Pick Up Artists?

Anyone here jealous of their skills or for the older guys, wish they could go back and become one?

Let's see how far this thread goes before it's closed.

I myself had studied seduction from certain gurus, such as Mystery, and have found their methods eminently effective. I would even go so far as to say it has taught me more about life in general and even how to be a good spouse.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

There's some interesting self-help and self-esteem stuff there, but a lot of the followers of those books seem to be nerds treating it like an exam or something, cramming in order to talk to women.

Nerds don't need to buy a book to figure out how to do well with women. All they need to do is move some points from Intelligence to Charisma.

 

[Mise]

Nerds don't need to buy a book to figure out how to do well with women. All they need to do is move some points from Intelligence to Charisma.

That is truly sigworthy.

 

[Kozmos]

Not necessarily. They just need to mask their geekyness for a while until the girl falls for them. Works for me at least.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I have to admit, I've been fascinated by pick-up artists ever since that guy who shot up a gym near Pittsburgh turned out to have attended a seminar. The subculture -- the "seduction community" -- is tremendously interesting. The detail with which they craft their strategies (see MeteorPunch and Arwon, supra) is incredible and reveals a ton about how they view themselves and women (hint: they don't like them). (I don't mean to suggest that all people who do this stuff don't like women, but there's a strong theme of misogyny in a lot of the seduction community.)

Here's their schtick: you learn some methods to trick women with low self-esteem into sleeping with you.

That's pretty much it. The whole strategy is to talk to tons of women (good advice for anyone looking to meet others), throw out a few lines that will filter out women with high self esteem*, then you use some techniques meant to prey on the remaining women's insecurities. It's not presented that way, but it's pretty clear that's what it does. I suppose it works, in the sense that you end up sleeping with lots of women, but the women are merely puzzles to solve. They're not people. Any look into the pick-up artist community shows you what the term "objectification of women" means.

Again, as others here have pointed out, there are good elements to it. Talking to a lot of women is good, as is increased confidence. But the "technique" they employ isn't really consistent with considering women to be individual people with their own internal lives. And there's a meta predator-prey relationship at work, too -- the PUAs prey on insecure men to get exorbitant fees to attend seminars to learn "the game."

Cleo

*That's the purpose of the "neg," I've figured out -- a filtering system. Any woman with a good opinion of herself is going to say, "Who does this guy with the fuzzy top hat think he is?" when "negged." Any woman who remains will be easier to manipulate with the PUAs' games.

I have to disagree.

These methods are simply ways to get around a woman's resistance, and an acknowledgement that women who are arrogant and standoffish are often masking their insecurity. I would argue that with a confident woman, a man doesn't even need any lessons on seduction. A confident woman already knows what she wants and when presented with it, does not require any special enticement. I will point out that, at least under the Mystery Method, a neg is not always required. When I was single, I rarely used it.

I find that the Mystery Method offers a comprehensive scheme to understanding the encounter, and how to make best use of it.

 

[Kozmos]

Or you could just you know...talk to a girl and see what's she like.

 

[Masquerouge]

What is a neg?

 

[Cutlass]

What is a neg?

I believe it means to somewhat put them down to see how they'll react. "That dress makes you look fat." If the girl doesn't stalk off, she probably has low self esteem.

 

[I'm Cleo!]

JohnMarshall12,

Re:taking control -- well, you can take control of a relationship without using the silly techniques that treat the woman like a puzzle to be solved. You can, you know, talk to your significant other. But for some reason these guys didn't -- they were probably not confident enough to do it -- and now some guy comes along with some techniques that will allow them to manipulate the next woman instead of dealing with her honestly.

I say "honestly" because the whole thing's a fake interaction, too. Maybe you could make an argument that all interactions are "fake" to some degree, but I just feel like the "game" stuff is different.

I have to disagree.

These methods are simply ways to get around a woman's resistance, and an acknowledgement that women who are arrogant and standoffish are often masking their insecurity. I would argue that with a confident woman, a man doesn't even need any lessons on seduction. A confident woman already knows what she wants and when presented with it, does not require any special enticement. I will point out that, at least under the Mystery Method, a neg is not always required. When I was single, I rarely used it.

I find that the Mystery Method offers a comprehensive scheme to understanding the encounter, and how to make best use of it.

It's still seriously objectifying the woman -- you're using a "scheme to understand the encounter," rather than just relating to another human being just like you'd do with your friends. The woman has "resistance" that you have to "get around" -- she's just a puzzle to solve. The interaction is about achieving a goal instead of relating to another person. There's something unsettling to me about that.

I feel like if you just took the advice of non-Game people -- Dan Savage, say -- you'd have just as much success in terms of sexual encounters. And I'm sure there are some honest people who don't know any better and use it for good, but the difference between the seduction community and other advice is the presence of the weird objectification/resentment vibe, and it's creepy.

Not that you necessarily approached it that way (to be honest, I have a little interest in the psychology of the process for the purposes of examining hostile witnesses!), but that's the structure and if you look around the community you'll see that there are a lot of people with serious issues.

Cleo

 

[Irish Caesar]

Not sure what there is to be jealous of...

The kinds of people the PUA community seems to go after aren't the kinds I am interested in.

Agreed.

And vice versa as well.

 

[mrt144]

Women want to be taken over and dominated by men, put into semi-overwhelming situations(ie the neg) and have their emotions go wild. In fact negs work best on HIGH esteem women who have a lot of male interest towards them or social status. When a male doesnt do it, the female interest fades away and she seeks for someone else that fullfils the criteria. Thats life, high esteem or low, thats how it works. Arguing against it is arguing against the natural mating behaviour of homo sapiens, its being delusional towards reality.

Lesbians.

 

[Eukaryote]

I don't have any disrespect for them. At least they took some action in trying to turn their life around from boredom and lonleyness, but I'm sure most of them eventually realize that picking up strangers in bars and clubs isnt how you get a girlfriend in real life. That's when they tend to abandon "sarging."

 

[mrt144]

In fact no! The most potent tactics to pick up women are also some of the most least used, because of the immense anxiety and perceived risk that they have, like the "apocalypse opener" for example, or very fast escalating physical game. It takes balls to do it, which is a lot of guys instead opt for less effective indirect game.

This kind of stuff is frat boy Friday night antics. The thing about PUA that I simply don't get is how one focuses their entire mate social interaction dynamic around random encounters in public places, that lead to the same conclusion every time. It's not so much an exercise in finding lasting or growing happiness but a soulless exercise in tactics and numbers.

 

[Harbringer]

I think the whole turning something like that into a science is despicable, and the objectification of women offends me. Manipulating a bunch of sorry women into sleeping with you is just sick, your exploiting someones weakness for your own twisted needs and contributing to keeping there vicious cycle going while your cheering yourself on for your "accomplishment".

I am no jealous, I would rather people be taught how to make a long lasting happy and healthy relationship rather than a trophy rack of vagina's youv conquered.

 

[Eukaryote]

I think the whole turning something like that into a science is despicable, and the objectification of women offends me. Manipulating a bunch of sorry women into sleeping with you is just sick, your exploiting someones weakness for your own twisted needs and contributing to keeping there vicious cycle going while your cheering yourself on for your "accomplishment".

I am no jealous, I would rather people be taught how to make a long lasting happy and healthy relationship rather than a trophy rack of vagina's youv conquered.

Wow, you seem to be missing the point of pick up artists. It's a way for insecure men without social lives to feel some validation and hope that they might actually get a relationship. These kinds of men outnumber men who are on a quest to get laid just for the sake of getting laid by ten to one.

 

[mrt144]

I could come up with a far simpler way of thinking about this that doesn't involve gimmicks; there are no consequences.with strangers.

 

[RalofTyr]

Why would I be jealous? It's quality, not quantity.

I get girls & women of all ages without doing anything. They'll come to me. All I have to do is walk over and say, "Hi, my name is....what's your's"? Girls will literally drag me back to their place.

I have no expectations other than a conversation. If things go from there, great, if they don't, that's fine too. Especially when going out. The object is to have fun and socialize, not get laid.

I guess the moral of the story is, you want to talk to as many girls as you can. Don't worry about picking them up or closing a sale. Being a pick up artist is difficult when you have a child support payment, so don't go after anything.

Also, most PUA I've met were shallow, selfish, immature little boys; even the ones in their thirties.