[Extension] Pineappledan Tweaks for VP

[Kim Dong Un]

At this point, you might as well just return Broadway to its rightful owner and create something new as the Industry finisher for all the other civs to use.

Seriously though, I (along with many others) always liked the corporation idea, and despite having no direct ties or influence with early America, a unique corp would arguably present the most fun option for playing the US. Augmented by their gold theme, America is capitalism / consumerism personified -- let's not downplay the fact that Walmart is emphatically the biggest corporation on the planet -- and I'm sure there are tons of fun ideas we could come up with to help support that. That is the only other option I can see truly promoting distinctly unique gameplay down the stretch for Washington, though it would still be exclusive to Industry, so to be honest, if anyone goes through the trouble to implement a unique corp, it'd probably be best served as the standard Industry finisher (thus leaving current Broadway to America, and all of a sudden my idea doesn't seem too crazy... though I'm not even a huge fan of the current Broadway either, because it doesn't directly promote CV).

Practically though, I have no real issues with what you've already implemented, seeing as it's a massive improvement over default USA, so regardless of all the debate I just want to say I'm very thankful for any work that's been done to try and make the collective VP experience as best it can be.

Edit* I forgot the main reason I even came to the thread was to let you know my pathfinder/scout couldn't traverse mountains (with the required promo) in the latest version.

 

[Hinin]

Seriously though, I (along with many others) always liked the corporation idea, and despite having no direct ties or influence with early America, a unique corp would arguably present the most fun option for playing the US. Augmented by their gold theme, America is capitalism / consumerism personified -- let's not downplay the fact that Walmart is emphatically the biggest corporation on the planet -- and I'm sure there are tons of fun ideas we could come up with to help support that. That is the only other option I can see truly promoting distinctly unique gameplay down the stretch for Washington, though it would still be exclusive to Industry, so to be honest, if anyone goes through the trouble to implement a unique corp, it'd probably be best served as the standard Industry finisher (thus leaving current Broadway to America, and all of a sudden my idea doesn't seem too crazy... though I'm not even a huge fan of the current Broadway either, because it doesn't directly promote CV).

HungryForFood already made a civ mod with a unique Corporation system. I personally like the approach pineappledan is taking at the moment, and I think that's unique and powerful and thematic enough.

 

[pineappledan]

At this point, you might as well just return Broadway to its rightful owner and create something new as the Industry finisher for all the other civs to use.

Seriously though, I (along with many others) always liked the corporation idea

The problem with corps is you aren't guaranteed to get one, and they would have to work very different for America, and their power swings wildly from game to game. I think unique corporations work a little better for civs like Korea or Japan, because they have much more of a history of state-sanctioned corporate monopolies that function(ed) much more openly as extensions of the country's foreign policy.

If I were to add American corporations I would limit myself to 1870s-1910s robber barons and their trusts, like Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel, and J.P. Morgan and Co.

While that offers something different, I don't think agree that it would be something altogether better, and carving out a unique niche in the monopoly system that wouldn't make it either interchangeable with the existing corps or game-breaking OP would be a very fine balance, because regular corps already can get pretty busted by late-game, but at least it's a busted mechanic that every civ theoretically has a shot at.

 

[Stalker0]

The problem with corps is you aren't guaranteed to get one

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the whole point of a unique American corp is that you always could get it? I mean if no one else can take it, its guaranteed right (I would remove monopoly requirements, or if that's not possible, just allow it to work with every possible resource monopoly). And then you would make it mutually exclusive with other corps so if American choose to take its unique corp it wouldn't get any of the others.

Again, not saying we should go that path....but it seems a pretty straightforward way to go if I'm not mistaken.

 

[pineappledan]

It absolutely would mean we would have to guarantee America always gets a corp, like how Byzantium always gets a religion. That would have to be factored into the balance on top of everything else if we went that way... And I'm not suggesting we head that way.

These problems have all already been resolved by HungryForFood for his Meiji mod. That's yet another complication: We would be stepping on HFF's toes and cannibalizing one of his custom civs

 

[Stalker0]

It absolutely would mean we would have to guarantee America always gets a corp, like how Byzantium always gets a religion.

If you made America's corp able to work with any resource monopoly, I think you have done more than enough. If America with their ability to buy other peoples tiles can't secure a monopoly....well then they just played a bad game. Its like if China doesn't try to get any WLTKD bonuses or if Austria lets herself get decolonized....at some point you do have to assume some amount of competency. This isn't a situation like the Incas where if you have no mountains your screwed....if you can't secure your Unique Corp....its because you just messed up.

These problems have all already been resolved by HungryForFood for his Meiji mod. That's yet another complication: We would be stepping on HFF's toes and cannibalizing one of his custom civs

That's a weak argument. If we made the exact same corp as HungryForFood did, than yes that is a problem. But just using a similar concept.... I mean we are already "stealing" the 3 unique UB concept from Venice....yet at no time would I ever have said "man this is looking too similar to Venice".

Concepts can be shared, its how they are used that makes them unique. Just because both HungryForFood and this mod used a unique corp, does not mean the end civs would look anything alike.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Forgive me, as I don't mean to infringe on anybody's work; I should've assumed that someone in this community already did it... Mind you, at first glance those unique corps from the Zaibatsu seem pretty underwhelming -- I don't see how those are much better than the standard choices... I'd have bigger aspirations for any hypothetical American corp(s).

I'm also very conscious of the fact you just finished the rework and in no way do I want to discount or disregard the awesome work you continue to provide through your free time. Plus, there are no guarantees that a unique corp(s) even ends up being more serviceable than what you've created (as Hinin said, the current trio provides more than enough power + theme, and I've already given it the Supreme Stamp of Satisfaction). I might think it's the coolest idea, but the cons are valid and it's understandable that it might not be the most practical, so ultimately I leave that for you all to debate (I'm mostly here because I like throwing around concepts / ideas). As far as I'm concerned, there are bigger fish to still fry.

 

[pineappledan]

new version posted. mostly bug fixes, because I really messed things up when I tried to make a commando standalone mod
Dirigible added back into the game (lol)
All airship line units have 33% defense, not just vs units
amphibious abilities now should work properly on airships now
Commandos can no longer move after attack

 

[pineappledan]

What about piquette Avenue Plant instead of Hoover dam?

the main Ford plant, where the model T was designed, and the first mass production automobile factory.

 

[Stalker0]

What about piquette Avenue Plant instead of Hoover dam?

the main Ford plant, where the model T was designed, and the first mass production automobile factory.

unless your considering mechanical changes as well I think Hoover Dam is a more recognized landmark…at least among Americans

 

[Tekamthi]

hey meant to share a few of these ideas when i was last posting in this thread, oops.... reminded today in reading elsewhere on the topic of zeps and airships etc., anyway a few ideas, most of which come from never-finished modding attempts of my own that realistically i probably won't ever have time for (though maybe can help collaborate with lua and sql)...

First, I think an overhaul of the recon and zep units would is very well-served in VP, even as a consideration for the main branch, if done right... they're just weird as-is in VP, and though I've grown to love that weirdness, the zep line as i imagine it could serve to add some depth to the game, beyond just another unit competing for production queues. This mod is a step in the right direction, though not quite enough i think

to start things off, and to add some thematic utility, could these have an effect similar to machine gun ie -% combat strength for nearby enemies? afaik though historically deployed in multiple roles somewhat effectively, their strength especially in the early days of their existence was as a terror weapon... ie they couldnt really be used in strategic attacks but the psychological factor of seeing one of these floating towards you was perhaps their most powerful feature

also on the thematic utility front, seems to me they should have some innate 'withdraw from melee' ability, perhaps even moderately high.

next, since these are air units, albeit slow, can they make use of any of the air unit functions? when last modding on this front, i had attempted unsuccessfully to give zeps a short-range bombing attack similar to fighter/bomber (button didn't show up in-game iirc) -- this evolved into a semi-successful paradrop ability instead, of 2-3 tiles to allow them just enough to skip through fortified lines and pick their way back if they survive etc... had some animation issues left to sort out last i touched it

within VP tables, there used to exist (and possibly still does) a NumberStackingUnits or something along these lines, either promo or unit table iirc. Though somewhat imperfect, maybe this can be leveraged (ie numstackedunits = 1) to allow units to pass through these tiles when occupied by a single airship unit... no idea how ai will handle this but perhaps if your modding is to be considered for main vp, ai could eventually be adjusted?

a little further out there as far as modding effort goes, and beyond most of the experimenting i attempted, I hoped to explore the following: make these units somehow a low-CS but nonetheless useful weapon in 2-3 roles via the above abilities and further promo specialization (ie reclaim VP's unused unitcombat_helicopter), enough so that their presence causes at least some minor concern in battle, then restrict them on a 1-per-building basis -- i'm a little uncertain if this next part is viable, but to make this an interesting and different unit line from the rest, with maybe some subtle strategic and diplomacy depth, have the airship-enabling building leverage VP's corporation mechanisms, though as a separate category of corporations from the existing ones. Theorycrafting this out further, a single hq available at x tech or other trigger allows spread of franchises to friendly cities as per existing VP mechanism... rather than super yields, this category of franchise/hq allows airship/uav (helicopter as i imagined it) to be built... in total maybe 3-5 of these type of corps available throughout industrial and beyond eras, mutually exclusive to one another but not to VP's corporations, possibly using historical names such as Zeppelin, Goodyear, Airbus, Sikorsky, Bell etc (again i was thinking helicopters, not UAVs).

anyway take 'em or leave em! just thought these ideas should be parked somewhere other than my modbuddy install

 

[Guynemer]

unless your considering mechanical changes as well I think Hoover Dam is a more recognized landmark…at least among Americans

As someone who grew up in Detroit, home to Henry Ford and the Model T, you are absolutely correct.

 

[Gizmoman]

I suggested the Coca-Cola bottling plant as the big American culture/tourism wonder, but it got ignored.
Still think that's probably the biggest exporter of American culture next to Hollywood.

 

[Stalker0]

I did read that coca

I suggested the Coca-Cola bottling plant as the big American culture/tourism wonder, but it got ignored.
Still think that's probably the biggest exporter of American culture next to Hollywood.

Only two countries in the world don’t sell it, and it’s one the most recognized names in the world

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Only two countries in the world don’t sell it

Supreme Leader will never succumb to the charm of those infamous polar bears! To allow such poison to take root upon the global populace has been no less than a crime on humanity! The Glorious One refuses to tar the insides of his divine people -- do you think it's coincidence that my lands see some of the lowest diabetic rates in the world?

*In all seriousness, I think if it's actually a candidate, Coke would be best off integrated through franchises / corp mechanics, otherwise I feel Hoover does a better job already with the impact / theme it provides.

 

[pineappledan]

A conundrum for America's wonders:

Right now, they all have a 10% yield converter from gold to something else c5production://) This is currently being done by a dummy building given by the wonder in all cities. It works perfectly fine, but if we want to get this accepted into VP, it probably needs to be DLL integrated as a new code.

If I switched that gold conversion to just a flat +10% yield in the city, that's something that Temple of Artemis does, so it already exists, and America's wonders are feature-complete.

So do you think maybe we should just drop the yield converter for something a little more straightforward?

Edit: also, @InkAxis did some tests with Trade Route Speed, and it turns out making your trade routes faster doesn't make them complete any sooner. It just makes them easier to pillage because they are more likely to run into things. So, InkAxis has made a new ability that makes Trade routes complete faster, and I am planning to implement that with the Hoover Dam. I believe this power is enough to stand on its own, potentially doubling the rate that you can plant franchises and get instant boosts from TR completion.

 

[Stalker0]

Right now, they all have a 10% yield converter from gold to something else c5production://) This is currently being done by a dummy building given by the wonder in all cities. It works perfectly fine, but if we want to get this accepted into VP, it probably needs to be DLL integrated as a new code.

If I switched that gold conversion to just a flat +10% yield in the city, that's something that Temple of Artemis does, so it already exists, and America's wonders are feature-complete.

So do you think maybe we should just drop the yield converter for something a little more straightforward?

So the entire reason for the converter in teh first place, was to give America additional incentive to maximize gold....aka to play in a way not typical of most civs. If we have to remove it we have to....but I wouldn't replace it with a straight "+X% yield"....that just brings us back to the flat out boring bonuses that caused rework of America in the first place.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The description for Suvivalism III is wrong.

Spoiler Survivalism textbox. :

 

[pineappledan]

I haven't tested the changes yet, but I need to get to prepare for the work week and get to bed:

 - Removed Commando and scout line changes (added to base VP)
 - Added Zeppelin into the mod (removed from base VP)
 
Civ Tweaks
    - Hoover Dam: removed tourism on TR complete and TR speed boost. TRs now complete in half the time
    - Mongol Ordo: Melee troops now retreat back to the Ordo after kills, same as a base citadel
    - Sweden: Carolean moved back to Fusilier
    - Songhai: Mandekalu moved back to Knight
    - Spain: Conquistador now an Explorer replacement unlocked at Compass (see OP)
    - Indonesia: UA, UB, and UU reworks (see OP)

Thanks to @InkAxis for much of the new code implemented with these new changes.

Please report any bugs; I decided it was better to get this out fast rather than get it polished.

 

[pineappledan]

New version inbound with actual testing this time:

Indonesia: actually works now
Sweden: actually works now; Carolean's Grenadier promotion increased to 15 AOE damage on kill
Spain: Removed free Castle on Settle; replaced with Mission (unique building only available via Conquistador settling. gives +2 faith, +3 defense. and +100 HP)
Added Iroquois Tweak: Longhouse now has +1 prod to Camps. Removed +20CS when near Natural Wonders