Pinochet Common Misconceptions

[Takhisis]

1988 - General Pinochet's government held a referendum if there should be democratic elections. The country voted yes.
1989-90 - Christian Democrat Patricio Aylwin wins the presidential election. General Pinochet peacefully transfers power to the new government and remains commander-in-chief of the army.

When General retired he became a senator-for-life in accordance with the Constitution.

He retained control of the military, that's why the Constitution imposed on Chile by the military was enforced.

Pinochet had people thrown out of helicopters.

Yeah, no, but, you see, as we've established just above Pinochet cannot be held to blame for anything, because the Constitution he came up with says so.

 

[RomanKing]

I'm not sure if you missed this post among all the angrier ones, but I'd genuinely like to know more about left-wing extremist violence in Chile in the 1960s and 1970s. My biases are generally center-left, but I'll read literally any viewpoint.

Overall my impression is that the rate of left-wing terrorist/guerrilla activity in Chile was far lower than in Argentina and Uruguay at the same time, and that human rights abuses by Allende and his supporters were rare compared to those under Pinochet (although there must have been some, given what happened to your family). If this impression is wrong, or even if it is right, I'd like to see some sources that discuss it.

Do you have any links, or know of any books, or any other source which we might be able to read? Linking to sources tends to make this sort of debate more productive and less aggressive. A few people might even learn something.

As I've said, this is often difficult as there is very little accurate information available for either side, but far less so for left-wing terrorism/guerrilla activity as Allende made sure to intimidate his opposition and bankrupted newspapers who dared criticize him. It is well-known that Castro funded, supplied and sent communist guerrillas into Chile and much of Latin America, with the support of the Soviets. The politically motivated liberal critics and Western "scholars" also make finding unbiased information even more difficult, as Westerners like to cite blatantly biased sources like those of Baltasar Garzón who really should never have been a member of the judiciary considering his well-know political allegiances and overreaching judicial activism. Also being a Cold War era conflict you just aren't going to find much unbiased information that hasn't been propagated.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

His legal work has been pretty influential in the field of human rights defense and the world is not going to be a so nice place for criminals like Pinochet anymore.

You're saying that like that's a Good Thing.

Pinochet had people thrown out of helicopters.

You're saying that like that's a Bad Thing.

 

[Bootstoots]

As I've said, this is often difficult as there is very little accurate information available for either side, but far less so for left-wing terrorism/guerrilla activity as Allende made sure to intimidate his opposition and bankrupted newspapers who dared criticize him. It is well-know that Castro funded, supplied and sent communist guerrillas into much of Latin America, with the support of the Soviets. The politically motivated liberal critics and Western "scholars" also make finding unbiased information difficult, as Westerners like to cite blatantly biased sources like those of Baltasar Garzón who really should never have been a member of the judiciary considering his well-know political allegiances and overreaching judicial activism.

But surely there's something out there? I mean, surely right-wing opponents of Allende wrote stuff too, even if it might not have been published in newspapers. And, given the US government's opposition to Allende and support of Pinochet, American right-wingers would have a strong incentive to write about this as well.

All information is biased in some way by its authors, but what I'm looking for is some sort of writing talking about the excesses of Allende and any guerrilla or terrorist activity before, during, or after his presidency. It's not possible to find anything truly unbiased, but reading information from a variety of biases can give someone a much clearer picture of what happened.

Any links you have to anything exploring this issue would be helpful. I'm sure there's something out there which could inform us, and which was not written by left-wing academics.

 

[RomanKing]

But surely there's something out there? I mean, surely right-wing opponents of Allende wrote stuff too, even if it might not have been published in newspapers. And, given the US government's opposition to Allende and support of Pinochet, American right-wingers would have a strong incentive to write about this as well.

The hard left in the United States impeached Nixon and condemned his support for Chile.

I'm sure there's something out there which could inform us, and which was not written by left-wing academics.

I am certain there is as well. The trouble is finding it because the academics tend to only site themselves and original sources on the matter would not be in English.

 

[Traitorfish]

The hard left in the United States impeached Nixon.

hahaha what.

 

[RomanKing]

hahaha what.

Sorry, forced him to resign.

 

[Bootstoots]

The hard left in the United States impeached Nixon and condemned his support for Chile.

The Nixon impeachment had nothing to do with Chile, and the US hard left does not have absolute control over all publishing: right-wing people publish stuff too. I'm just asking for you to link to sources that might back up your perspective. I don't mind if the sources have right-wing biases - in fact I'd welcome it. I don't even mind if they are in Spanish; Google Translate will take care of that passably well. But I'd like to see something to learn more about the human rights situation in Chile under Allende.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, if you want to bring up Nixon we can and should point out that Chile's crisis which started with low copper prices was compounded by the Nixon administration imposing economic sanctions on Chile.

 

[RomanKing]

The Nixon impeachment had nothing to do with Chile, and the US hard left does not have absolute control over all publishing: right-wing people publish stuff too. I'm just asking for you to link to sources that might back up your perspective. I don't mind if the sources have right-wing biases - in fact I'd welcome it. I don't even mind if they are in Spanish; Google Translate will take care of that passably well. But I'd like to see something to learn more about the human rights situation in Chile under Allende.

The hard left in the United States has had the closest thing to a monopoly on the press and media for a long time.

I understand your curiosity on the matter, but given the hostility of this forum I really don't see how citing blatantly biased sources is going to prove anything, let alone reduce hostilities if that is your objective.

 

[Traitorfish]

Sorry, forced him to resign.

That really wasn't the bit I was objecting to.

 

[Takhisis]

That really wasn't the bit I was objecting to.

He considers everyone to the left of him to be ‘the hard left’.

I really don't see how citing blatantly biased sources is going to prove anything,

Sarcasm or irony?

 

[Bootstoots]

I'm not trying to reduce hostility, necessarily. I just want to see what the other side of the argument is and learn more about it. And while leftists dominate much of academia and the media, lots of right-wing authors publish books too.

This way we will also have something to discuss that is not simply your opinion vs. the opinions of the mostly left-wing posters on the site. I'd like to see more right-wing perspectives than just your own about Allende and Pinochet.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

The hard left in the United States has had all but a near monopoly on the press and media for a long time.

Now I'm really interested in your definition of the "hard left".
Please name names.

 

[Traitorfish]

This way we will also have something to discuss that is not simply your opinion vs. the opinions of the mostly left-wing posters on the site.

For what it's worth, I do think it's worth highlighting the bankground of social turmoil against which Pinochet's coup occurred. The usual liberal narrative of "nice socialist Allende overthrown by this US-backed jerk" is, while hinting at some essential truth, shallow and doesn't have a lot of explanatory power.

I just don't think "nice fascist Pincohet overthrows this USSR-backed jerk" is any better.

 

[RomanKing]

This way we will also have something to discuss that is not simply your opinion vs. the opinions of the mostly left-wing posters on the site. I'd like to see more right-wing perspectives than just your own about Allende and Pinochet.

REDY, who's country has also suffered a history of communist aggression and violence has stated viewpoints that are similar to mine on the matter. Perhaps he can offer more insight into his perspective?

 

[Takhisis]

REDY, who's country also has a history of communist aggression and violence has stated viewpoints that are similar to mine on the matter. Perhaps he can offer more insight into his perspective?

So you don't have any more information and you also appear not to have read @REDY's posts to the end.

 

[RomanKing]

You're speaking for REDY now are you?

 

[Takhisis]

No, I've just bothered to read his posts beyond the first five or six words.

 

[RomanKing]

^ Sour grapes.