playtest feedback

[davidlallen]

Good points on traits. I had not noticed that expansive was *that* good. In my playtest games on autoplay, Monty, Max and Stevie "seem" to win more often: fin/cha, fin/exp, fin/org ... a suspicious trend for financial. I have not analyzed why yet apart from obviously, money is tight after the apocalypse and the extra income keeps your economy from stalling as you expand.

I agree industrious is weak because one main benefit is faster wonders, and there are hardly any wonders. In version 0.8 I have added one wonder, "carhenge" (exactly stonehenge benefits), and I plan to make it so industrious will get 2x the chance of popping something good from ruins. Probably more wonders are needed, there are some good suggestions on the wonders / projects thread.

I have renamed creative to "vigilant" and changed which are its cheap buildings: barricade and a new "watchtower" based on refar's suggestion for a militia building. I'd like to make sure "vigilant" can stand by itself rather than tossing it and adding the safety bonus to some other trait.

If people feel aggressive is underpowered, I can add utes to the list.

 

[Refar]

If people feel aggressive is underpowered, I can add utes to the list.

I think it's less because AGG is under-powered, but because the UTE is. When Playing AGG those 12 Guardians with free Combat1 looked just so much juicier, than the 8 UTE.

But we had this already, and you at least partially convinced me, that the UTE might still be usefull for other strategies, different tech path... Still getting bonus from AGG would make the UTE more attractive.

 

[davidlallen]

It is true that in AIAutoPlay, the AI rarely builds utes. I have locally increased its strength to 9 (from 8) and that did not change much. I can keep creeping it upwards until people complain it is too strong.

 

[Refar]

There might be other conciderations than raw strength to make AI build or not build certain things - normally AI will flavour mixed armies to some extent. I am not exactly sure how it works, but i do assume that possible "Unit_AI" types play a role here (Because you can set LH ais to prefer certain Unit_AI types).

Overall this will be something to look into, but i think tweaking the AI could wait right now, as the unit roaster is not yet 100% final.

Overall i think base strenght 10 combined with the versatile and interesting promotions (Something the AI probably will never fully get) will make the UTE a attractive unit.

Related question - do you know how the AI evaluated promotions ? Because the UTE does have a valuable "No Fuel" promotion, which i assume the AI does not value as much...

 

[davidlallen]

Related question - do you know how the AI evaluated promotions ? Because the UTE does have a valuable "No Fuel" promotion, which i assume the AI does not value as much...

Excellent point. I am sure the AI does not place any special value on less fuel 3. There is no way to weight promotions like iAIWeight, and certainly no way to weight *future possible* promotions.

I will try 10 on an autorun tonight and also give the unit an iAIWeight 100.

Bedtime.

 

[Refar]

Bedtime.

I am eating my breakfeast now
Good night.

 

[arkham4269]

Another idea - i am not sure where it fits so i just post it here... The setting is a lot about scavenging, so a actual scavenger ability might be cool.

Another possibility would be something they had back in the "Rise & Rule" Mod in Civ III and that was when you had a privateer and you captured a ship, you usually got a 'prize ship' - this ship was a basically a slow, weak galleon and wasn't very useful as a ship, but if you brought it back to a city and disbanded it, you got a lot of hammers. This represented, historically, that this was how it was.

I'm thinking that maybe if you had the scavenger/slaver promotion that depending on the unit defeated you'd get a prize. So an infantry unit you might either get a worker or refugee. Mechanized units would get a prize unit that you'd take back to your city and it would add hammers toward you current building project or maybe allow you to add a free upgrade/experience to a unit there just like the 'goody hut' event does.

Oh, in regard to slavery. I would think that in a post-apocalyptic that most races would probably uses slaves/thralls/indentured servants from captured enemy units. I mean why kill potentially valuable people? Why should I work in some crap job when I can get a POW to do it? However, slavery as a civic means that a BIG part of the economy is based on slavery and that means that there needs to be a lot of internal controls to prevent slave revolts and the like. So I think that not having the slavery civic shouldn't preclude capturing enemy units an using them as workers.

However, I like how many mods have the slave (like Fall From Heaven) be a slow worker and they have a chance to escape and become a barbarian unit. You might want to think about that the slave civic can use the "Slave Ring" that Fall From Heaven has as part of their Undercouncil so they can pay gold to create slaves, as well as sell slaves (especially captured ones) to get money or rush buildings. Of course, they'd get hit by slave revolts a lot and that can really tie up vital military resources.

 

[davidlallen]

I hadn't given much thought to slaves, but you are right, it makes perfect sense. I will think about some mechanics for that. SeZereth had suggested civic-specific units, so if you have the slavery civic you would get a slaver unit that could do this. Because population is very precious, I haven't seen much use for whipping. I can't prove whether the AI has done it in this mod, but I never have.

I had thought about capturing vehicles. Because the AI isn't very smart about convoys, sometimes a jeep gets stranded in my territory. After a few turns, I'd like to be able to go bribe them to join my side Or, when you destroy one, maybe some "scrap" is left behind, and a "mechanic" promotion might allow you to fix it up enough to limp back to base. Actually, I suppose a garage could allow you to fix it up into a real unit, which would give the garage some actual purpose. I may have to add that now.

 

[arkham4269]

I had thought about capturing vehicles. Because the AI isn't very smart about convoys, sometimes a jeep gets stranded in my territory. After a few turns, I'd like to be able to go bribe them to join my side Or, when you destroy one, maybe some "scrap" is left behind, and a "mechanic" promotion might allow you to fix it up enough to limp back to base. Actually, I suppose a garage could allow you to fix it up into a real unit, which would give the garage some actual purpose. I may have to add that now.

Well perhaps you'd have a random chance for a vehicle when defeated you'd either get
A) a slave/refugee (POW or the crew is willing to change sides)
B) a hulk that remains stationary and can be fixed back to a usable unit if fixed by a mechanic. Perhaps this would use up the mechanic.
C) a 'prize' (not sure about the graphic) that could be brought/carried back to a city and either used for hammers toward a building or a promotion of another vehicle.

I think that since vehicles are precious and in some respects don't represent vast amounts of vehicles like they do in regular Civ, this would work. Plus, this would sort of help out the Defense. Sure having vehicles is very effective in this game, but if the Defender plays his cards right (builds walls and good defensive units) the Attacker's offensive strike will not only fail, but leave a lot of potentially usable stuff behind that will help the Defender.

The only question I have is, could anyone's mechanic upgrade/fix a hulk anywhere on the map, regardless of territory. I mean A attacks B and ends up leaving lots of hulks or wrecked vehicles behind, can C come in with some mechanics and 'steal' the hulks if B doesn't have any mechanics ready?

Now that I think of it, since a prize/hulk would need to be brought back or gassed up, perhaps the art for the mechanic would be a tow-truck.

As for bribing, I know Alpha Centauri had their spies able to do this. I would think if you have a positive safety rate and decent espionage, spies could do this.

 

[Refar]

I think slaves would be better with a "Dedicated Feature" since there is some potential to be leveraged (Slaver Units, requiring certain Civics, possible revolts).

The B and C ideas of a scrap unit that could be fixed sounds interesting. With C i.e. the possibility to convert the scrap into a promotion - say "Armored"-promotion.

 

[arkham4269]

I would think that in some respects, that since movies like Road Warrior or Tank Girl showed that there really aren't a lot of people left, that there would be a lot of pressure not to kill people if you can avoid it.

So perhaps in combat, every unit should have a chance to create a unit due to combat. As posted before, infantry, cavalry units might create a POW/slave which could be used as a not as efficient worker that could rebel and become a barbarian. These POW/slaves could also be used to help finish a building project or if you have the slavery civic, sold for gold.

Vehicle units, as mentioned, could become POW/slave (the crew) a hulk that could be fixed later or a 'prize' that could be taken back to a city for hammers or gold.

Another idea could be that perhaps when you raid a town, you might get gold or you might get slaves/refugees. Maybe depending on what you raid, you might get a stripped down Great Person so a mine might create a Semi-Great Engineer that represents some important foreman of the mine that you captured and now can bring back to your Civ and use. I think this would make raiding be much more of a valid tactic instead of just mostly just static warfare where the defender mostly just stays in his cities.

I don't know HTML or Python but perhaps you might even have your slaves have a chance to not only go barbarian but perhaps become part of your empire. So the crappy slave worker either transforms into a regular worker, or becomes a refugee you can plus up your base with.

Having this sort of mechanic in the game would, I think make both attackers and defenders have to think about tactics. Attackers have to be careful not to attack to soon and leave a lot of stuff behind in the wake of a failed attack that will strengthen their enemy. The Defenders, on the other hand, can't afford to just sit in their cities since the Attack can come in and loot them blind and get some neat stuff.

 

[Refar]

Low populations never stopped hunmanity from killing each other

I wouldn't got as far as "every unit hahing a chance" - i think those should be dedicated units or promotions to enable slaving/scavenging.

 

[davidlallen]

Interesting discussion on slaves. For wrecks, I have a mechanic in mind based on the discussion here; please see the new "development feedback" thread. For slaves, I am not sure yet. One thing I am worried about is the number of people in a "pop point" vs a "worker" vs "survivors of a killed combat unit". I am sure there is no real answer but it seems like 100:10:1 somehow.

In the other games which have slave units, do they convert into population points like my refugee, or do they only convert into workers?

I was sort of thinking that if you raze a city, it might generate (pop/4) number of refugees.

 

[arkham4269]

In the other games which have slave units, do they convert into population points like my refugee, or do they only convert into workers?

Most mods I've played, like Rise of Mankind and Fall from Heaven have a slave basically a 'slow' worker. So while you get a 'free' unit, they are really not worth much. Most mods have slave able to be disbanded for hammers to help build a building. Additionally in FfH, if you have the option under the "Undercouncil" civic to create a Slave ring. Then in any city you can buy a slave unit as well as sell existing ones. Slaves can be used to hurry buildings but not increase population. I would think that Slavery as a civic would allow slave pen type buildings that might work either like a forge for more hammers or maybe a granary to show increase farm labor. I would think it would also increase unhappiness to show the general unrest found in slave-base economies.

As I had mentioned, many mods make a percent chance every turn that the slave will revolt and go barbarian. I was thinking that just because you are a POW, that perhaps over time the slave might be willing and trusted enough to merge into the owner's society. I mean, historically, slaves often could buy their freedom or where only thralls for the first generation. So maybe slave could have a chance to 'upgrade' into a refugee or revolt into a barbarian.

Plus, like I mention in one of my post, maybe you could have it where you could disband a slave for a short boast in food and/or happiness by eating the slaves. The reasons for this where well shown in Larry Niven's book "Lucifer's Hammer" since not only does cannibalism give food, but it marks your people and 'taints' them so they sort of think they have to stay with their group.

 

[arkham4269]

I was sort of thinking that if you raze a city, it might generate (pop/4) number of refugees.

Not sure if you can do this, but maybe you could make it so there is a mix of refugees and slave. This would show some people would be willing to join the attacking Civ while the slaves would represent the group that are like, "I'll never join you...but did you really have to chop off my saber hand?"

Although, if you go with my idea that slaves might later 'evolve' into refugees, it could show that after many a turn of being a slave might show the 'error' of their ways. "Did I say I'd never turn to the Dark Side? Ha ha! Silly me, I just LOVE the snappy Imperial uniforms!"

I still think, if it's a workable concept that perhaps when raising a city, there might be a chance to get a "Semi-Great" person to represent that any city would have some people who really knew their stuff. (Semi-Great in that they might only give 1/2 to a 1/4 of the benefit a Great person would)

 

[Refar]

Hmmm i am not sure about those razing city refugees.

Rasing is something done a lot due to economic constrains of the setting. I dont feel like adding benefits to it is the right thing to do.

What you probably could concider instead is reviving the "Partizans" random event - when a city is razed a number of disgrunted, angry citizens appear to fight for the owner of the city...

 

[Conroe]

I downloaded the mod and gave it a try. My initial impressions are that it has potential, but it is in need of some balancing tweaks. My apologies if some of these are already known issues. I have yet to read much of the posts in this forum.

I played 3 games. The first one ended after 4 turns when my initial starting Survivor was simultaneously attacked by a Radscorp and a Deathclaw. They came down a highway from underneath the fog of war. I didn't stand a chance so I started up a new game. The second game ended even quicker! A horse spawned right next to my city on turn 3. I would never have guessed that a lone horse could raze a city, even if it was undefended.

At this point, I realized that you shouldn't do any exploring with your starting Survivor. Thus my third game made it a bit further. However, 2 of my AI opponents weren't so lucky. I received a message on turn 2 that one of them was eliminated. The other AI was eliminated after about 10 turns. Turns out that they were both neighbors of mine, thus leaving me with a large amount of land available for uncontested settling.

The barbs are spawning way too early. The early game shouldn't be based this much on luck. It is a strategy game, after all. I also think way too many barbs are spawning. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if Raging Barbs had been turned on. As it stood, I had no trouble getting my units up to 10xp in preparation for an invasion. CRIII units should not be this easy to acquire without a war. Especially since the AI does not understand the tactic.

Turns out I would lose my third game, despite my huge land advantage. One of my AI opponents won a vision victory. I didn't realize that I needed to close borders with someone (my fault!) that had founded a vision. Afterwards, I went into debug mode to learn that he had managed to spread his vision to a total of 8 cities. Only 8 cities, and most of them mine.

As it turns out, the AI does not understand the food model in this mod. All of the AI cities were quite small compared to mine. The largest AI city, at the end of the game, was size 5. This compares to size 7 for my smallest city.

Of course even if the AI were fixed, it is still way too easy to get a vision victory. I would suggest that this option be removed from the mod. My personal opinion. If you insist on keeping it, you need to make it much more difficult to spread a vision. The automatic spreading of visions should probably be disabled. I also think it should be very difficult for an advocate to spread their vision to a foreign city. This is especially important since there is no Theocracy type civic in the mod.

I suspect a few other things are imbalanced, as well. Unfortunately, I've not played long enough to really say for certain one way or the other. Just from reading the Civilpedia, some of the traits seem particularly weak in comparison to the other traits. In particular, the Organized and Industrious traits seem weaker. Also the Utility Truck with its special promotions seems a bit overpowered. It is quite easy to get a +100% strength bonus with only 10xp. In contrast, I couldn't think of any uses for the Chopper, as it was just too weak in comparison to a Ute. As I said, though, I've not enough experience to say for certain on these issues.

Overall, I'd say it is an interesting mod with lots of potential. You have obviously put a lot of thought and hard work into it, and it shows! You're doing a great job and I look forward to playing it in the future!

 

[davidlallen]

I downloaded the mod and gave it a try. My initial impressions are that it has potential, but it is in need of some balancing tweaks.

Great! The more different play styles we see the faster the game will become well balanced. I assume you were playing the latest version 0.7. What difficulty level?

I played 3 games. The first one ended after 4 turns [...] The barbs are spawning way too early.

Just to be sure, do you mean "animals" spawn way too early, as opposed to units like "punk" and "punk biker"? I took some steps to prevent this kind of early wipeout, but not enough. In my unreleased development version, I have prevented animals from spawning at all, for the first 5 turns. Maybe I should make it longer. Do you think 10 is better, or 20?

As it turns out, the AI does not understand the food model in this mod. All of the AI cities were quite small compared to mine. The largest AI city, at the end of the game, was size 5. This compares to size 7 for my smallest city.

I would like to dig into this one a little further. In many games I have seen the AI with larger cities. One area which also requires balancing is that some of the start positions are very food-poor; maybe some of the AI's in your game were suffering from this. I have added some code in version 0.8 to give a bonus food resource to food-poor positions.

Offhand I do not see anything different about the decisions to make about food in this mod; it is rarer, but it seems the standard AI should be able to deal with it. If you examine the AI cities compared to your own, what are they doing wrong?

Of course even if the AI were fixed, it is still way too easy to get a vision victory.

IMHO this type of victory is very interesting to explore. Please take a look at this post where I have described what I am trying to accomplish, and let me know if you think the *concept* is a good one. I agree so far it needs the most tuning. In version 0.7 the vision threshold is 67%. I have tried a few games at 75% and one at 90%. I think there are a couple of problems:

1. There is no warning that a loss is coming. Even when I set the requirement that the percentage needs to be maintained for 10 turns, the only notification you get is when the game ends. I was hoping the game would give a popup which says, "Warning! Player X will win a vision victory in 10 turns!". To solve this part of it, maybe I need to add my own popup.

2. There is no way to actively defend. You can actively counterattack with your own advocates. In version 0.8 I have added a "decay" so that if you influence a far-away city to add your vision, and then ignore it, eventually your vision will disappear from that city. That may help; but there is still no active step you can take to defend. The obvious defense is an "Inquistor" unit, like Gods Of Old has among other mods. This unit would remove influence from a city. It would make sense for this action to be available to the advocate unit, instead of requiring another unit.

Are there other problems which you can see?

I would recommend trying it a little more after locally modifying the victory criterion to 90%. You can do this by editing your file Fury Road/Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4VictoryInfo.xml in Notepad or some other plain text editor. Search for "VICTORY_RELIGIOUS"; under that search for "iReligionPercent". It should say 67. Change it to 90 and save. That is better than disabling it, because at least you can watch the percent changing, and it is really unlikely to cause a loss.

Just from reading the Civilpedia, some of the traits seem particularly weak in comparison to the other traits. In particular, the Organized and Industrious traits seem weaker. Also the Utility Truck with its special promotions seems a bit overpowered. It is quite easy to get a +100% strength bonus with only 10xp. In contrast, I couldn't think of any uses for the Chopper, as it was just too weak in comparison to a Ute.

I agree industrious is a little weak, in version 0.8 I have doubled the chance for these players to get useful random finds from ruins. (Have you gotten one of the cargo trucks or named units from ruins yet?) Some playtesters feel that organized may be too strong, since there are few good ways to reduce your distance maintenance cost.

Regarding the ute, yes, it is relatively easy to get up to +100%, but that only makes it equal to the late game units. This is one main "flavor area" for the game. I am trying to get the exact effect of the "Road Warrior" movie, where certain highly experienced units can really kick butt. I agree the biker is relatively useless for the player, but I hope you have felt the "pain" of getting some workers on the border picked off by them. Their main role is as barbarians.

 

[arkham4269]

The first one ended after 4 turns when my initial starting Survivor was simultaneously attacked by a Radscorp and a Deathclaw. They came down a highway from underneath the fog of war. I didn't stand a chance so I started up a new game.

I too notice that often you'd get a spider spawn out of radiation at the same time you'd also get a Deathclaw or orther barb often in the FoW square right next to it. Then they'd both attack. I had jeeps and anti-tank units getting taken out by this 1-2 punch.

Another problem is you should always be able to build survivalists. I had a game where the goody hut gave me the tech for guardsmen on maybe turn 4 and so the survivalist I was building then got automatically made into a guardsman so instead of building it in 15 turns, I suddenly had to wait 54! Of course in that time my one survivalist got killed and then my city got razed and I lost.

 

[davidlallen]

Spreading out the animals is hard, because "animal density" is time-consuming to compute. I can put it on the list.

The only way I can see to prevent the "early small arms" effect where you can't build survivors anymore, is to remove the upgrade path from survivor to guardian. I don't think upgrading is widely used because it is so expensive, so it should not change play balance too much to make that change.