playtest feedback

[The_Coyote]

Ok, will post the more explaining answer considering the vision losses here:

the first loss was my first game (marathon speed: about 90 turns before end of the game [could build guardians for 20 - 30 turns]), the second, normal speed, was about turn 200 (imo the problem was, the first vision was found 10 years earlier than the other, so almost every AI had this as state vision).

It also seems that the AI is very offensive spreading his vision [in the first game short after a open border he spread his state vision in my capital = game lost], so even after the other nation have their own, they will not change [in my last game i was almost the last one building the capitol].

And perhaps there was one strange behavior, often when the AI tried to attack me, some of his jeeps run out fuel, direct beside the target town (saving the town from conquering), no idea if it would possible and how hard it would be to attach a tanker to an attack stack

 

[davidlallen]

It also seems that the AI is very offensive spreading his vision [in the first game short after a open border he spread his state vision in my capital = game lost

Why do you call that game lost? Or, is that just because your city pop put him up over the victory limit?

I am definitely not happy with the vision victory. Even setting the victory percentage to 67% did not help, at least in several test games at small size. For example, in a 5-player game, one player was wiped out and I was racing with one other player to the vision victory. But, he got the other two to convert, which pretty much guaranteed 75% of the population after a little while. There was no way I could convert them back.

And perhaps there was one strange behavior, often when the AI tried to attack me, some of his jeeps run out fuel, direct beside the target town (saving the town from conquering), no idea if it would possible and how hard it would be to attach a tanker to an attack stack

I agree, the AI is stupid about using tankers. It uses them "reactively", after the unit has run out, instead of attaching them to stacks. I am sure I could attach the tankers to stacks, but I am afraid the logic to decide whether to attach to stacks will be complex. In this case, you could argue the leader of the attacking army guessed he could get all the way into your city and use your tankers to refuel, but his guess was a little wrong.

 

[Randomness]

I like the game so far, and the ideas are looking good. Keep it coming!

However, you defineatly need to add some more buildings are redistribute the techs. (I know its been said, but I'm saying it again).

I'm not sure (I hav'nt checked closly yet) but I think you repeated some of the trait combos.

Is this so, and was it intentional?

 

[davidlallen]

I like the game so far, and the ideas are looking good. Keep it coming!

However, you defineatly need to add some more buildings are redistribute the techs. (I know its been said, but I'm saying it again).

Thanks! Spreading out the tech tree and adding more buildings are two different ideas. If you have some specific suggestions for spreading out the tech tree, please take a look at this thread and let us know; there has not been much activity over there yet.

I'm not sure (I hav'nt checked closly yet) but I think you repeated some of the trait combos.

Is this so, and was it intentional?

I don't think there are any repeats; there is a small spreadsheet at this link.

 

[davidlallen]

(redirected from new unit art thread)

1. The tech tree seems a little small. Is this going to expand over time?

Yes, but I am not quite sure how. The main problem is that the total cost of all the techs together is too small, so it is easy to research everything. I don't want to just boost the cost more. Please take a look at this thread and let us know if you have any specific ideas.

2. Another option might be to make Bio-Diesel available for research.
3. No ships?
4. In fact, no coal? I'm a bit of a steam punk mavin
5. Maybe have, like Rise of Mankind, have sulfer as a resource.
6. I think airships should be added.

I do plan bio-fuel if I can figure out useful mechanics to go around it. Search for "pigs**t" in the sub-forum (oddly, but it's a great quote). For the others, I wanted to focus on salvaging tech out of ruins rather than going back to primitive tech. Sounds like a separate steampunk mod would be fun.

Plus, if you have gas for jeeps, you should at least have recon planes. Weaponizing planes would be harder, but you could at least have planes that could bomb (poorly) and act as scouts. Ultralights are cheap and their engines small.

There is one, but it is a unique unit rather than something you can build. See the civilopedia under "The Pilot". Thanks to The_Coyote for a great new unit model!

8. I think that you should have to build facilities to be able to produce Jeeps and the like. I don't think that they should 'magically' be available simply because you have oil.

Just to avoid confusion, jeeps are built in cities. Fuel trucks automatically appear at oil wells to reduce the fuel micromanagement -- you don't need to build them or worry about the return trip. Tanks and artillery automatically appear at depots, which represents repairing ruined units which were stored there before the apocalypse. There is a limited supply of those.

9. Major grip I have with lots of mods, but I miss not having entertainers to boost culture and traders/caravans to help with money.

Good idea. Another poster had suggested that cities which are "safe" should be more popular destinations for caravans. I guess this is kind of abstracted by trade routes, but maybe I could do something more specific.

11. I think the Vision victory is too easy to achieve.

Definitely agree. I'm not sure how to change it, but this is a problem.

Beyond that, a very nice mod. I think this mod screams to have events. I can see plagues, storms and even odd things like satellites coming out of orbit and crashing to earth. That would be another Wonder, I think, re-establishing contact with satellites that are in geo-synchronous orbit just waiting to be used.

I agree events would be interesting. If you have some specific ideas of the effects for different events, please let us know; I will collect them and see about implementing them.

 

[arkham4269]

Some further thoughts. Plus, be aware I don't know HTML/python so if I suggest something that is impossible, it is out of ignorance.

First off, about the tech tree, I think the way to expand it is to have it in conjunction with the concept they use in Final Frontier of having a 'theme' for your tech. So if your civ is on the coast, you might switch to "Maritime" and that would unlock certain techs. I don't know if there is a way to make a tech cheaper by a flag, but if so, then Maritime civs could research certain techs more quickly at the expense of others. I know in Civ III, they used to do this.

I think it would make each Civ tend to go their own way, sort of like in Alpha Centauri (which this mod is sort of like in a way since you have a high tech people having to start very low level). Some examples of these themes might be:
* Recovery: We had high tech and damnit we'll have it again! Civ's using this would focus on getting old tech working again so they'd have fewer weapons but more powerful ones. They might also have more of a bunker mentality, fewer cities, but bigger ones.
* Downshift: This could be for Civ's without a lot of resources at their disposal except for maybe people so they push to use older techs like gunpowder or steam. This theme is useful if you access to sulfur and coal but maybe no oil.
* Maritime: As mentioned above, Civ's using this would focus on ships, have access to whaling boats and perhaps 'super fisheries' in the sense that the normal work boat gets only a token amount of fish whereas the maritime Civ's work boat creates a fishery that really cranks out the food. Plus they might also have access to the River Port that some mods have. They'd get increased commerce.
* Luddite: Technology brought us ruin. These folks would want to return to a simple life. Sure guys in jeeps with machine guns are bad ass, but up against LOTS of guys with crossbows is a bad thing. Perhaps also allow this theme to have the mobile yurts the one Mongol scenario had to enable them to be semi-nomadic. Either that or they get a lot less penalty for spreading out.
* Mad Scientist: Not sure how high-tech the planet was before, but perhaps they are going to focus on mutations and other bio-secrets that might have been unlocked prior to the war. You could have clones, mutates and 'necrotroops' (basically robocops) plus bio-weapons or just good old fashion chemical weapons.
* Gaian: Theme that is focused on terraforming and using fixing the planet. Similar to the Gaians in Alpha Centauri, perhaps they could use, breed many of the new mutations. Plus, who wouldn't want to have cavalry using giant spiders! =)~ Plus this theme would go for more wind-farms for electricity and bio-diesel.

Anyway, if there is a way, I think certain techs should be available only after certain key ones are made and you have to sort of stick with it. Another thing about having the theme would be that would slow things down since trading techs outside a theme would be pointless since it's not just the knowledge but the infrastructure. Won't do me much good to get a tech for better work boats since I don't have the ancillary tech that allows for shipyards.

I mean if you have scant resources, you can't do everything so you have to sort of pick a path and ride it to the end or pay the price for starting over and I think that would make the Civ's all a little bit more different.

 

[arkham4269]

One thought on plagues. I hate how plagues tend to wipe out only 1 Civ at a time which makes it really easy for a neighboring Civ come in and wipe you out. I was thinking that many/most of the barbarians should have the 'diseased' promotion from the Fall From Heaven mod. This way, going out and exploring is dangerous since your units get sick. Again, not sure if you can do this, but if a diseased unit is in a city, maybe there is a percentage chance the city gets plagued. Plus, you'd need a hospital or clinic to fix it.

Plus in Fall From Heaven, they have items that can be picked up an used, sort of like the Refugees. Maybe an item that can be found in ruins would be 'medical supplies' that could be used to cure diseased units or increase happiness in a city if used.

 

[arkham4269]

Just to avoid confusion, jeeps are built in cities. Fuel trucks automatically appear at oil wells to reduce the fuel micromanagement -- you don't need to build them or worry about the return trip. Tanks and artillery automatically appear at depots, which represents repairing ruined units which were stored there before the apocalypse. There is a limited supply of those.

I realize that, but I think it would be better to actually have a specific building like what they have in the WW II mod in the base Civ IV. I felt that there since there isn't a lot to build, the mod is set to make things expensive. I'd rather have lot's of things to build, but make it such that you really have to customize your cities since you can't afford to build every everywhere. So if you have to build a "Vehicle Recovery Factory" and it's expensive, you're not going to be able to build it in every city. So now that city 'makes' jeeps and thus is more strategically important.

I think the generic 'garage' goes against the intent of the mod. If recovery is the point, having to focus on a important (and costly) building makes more sense. I mean you have to amass the cars/trucks, get the parts, find people with the tools and knowledge to weaponize the vehicles as well as having the facility with the equipment to do all this in. Sure a guy good with tools can make an AK-47 by hand with a forge (and they do this in Pakistan) but it makes more sense to centralize this so the guy can teach it to others. Plus, sure anyone with some basic tools can "Mad Max" a vehicle, but it's another thing to maintain it with all the parts needed. Having all the people that know how to do this and perhaps fabricate replacement parts wouldn't be that common in today's world and less so with so many people getting killed.

 

[davidlallen]

I'll put a reply to your tech tree comments into the tech tree thread shortly, to keep all the tech tree stuff more-or-less together.

Good thoughts on plague and medical supplies. I haven't put a whole mechanic around that yet. One related idea is a "ruined biolab", like the "ruined depot", which could have a bunch of good or bad items generated. I was specifically thinking of accidental plague release or discovery of a plague vial which a spy could release in an enemy city.

Regarding buildings, I am not sure. In vanilla civ, there are no units which require a building to build. OK, maybe missionaries. IMHO, it makes building an army a little too complicated. "I need some jeeps to attack east, but my jeep building is in the west. Should I build a new jeep buillding in the east or just build them in the west with the extra travel time?" That is a fine question to build a mod around, but I'm not sure it adds to the post-apo theme specifically.

Regarding the garage, I am also not sure. I wanted some tech to unlock *promotions* for the ute, which could appear in the field, rather than requiring the unit to come in for a refit. But I rarely take the time to build the garage in my games, even though the XP bump is nice. Removing it probably wouldn't change the gameplay that much, and I am not sure what to add, in order to make it more critical.

 

[davidlallen]

Uh... It crashed the game on me

I have reproduced your problem with refueling on the test game which you have sent. I believe my analysis of the problem was correct, and I fixed it locally. But I tangled myself up a little when I switched from "local v0.8 files" to "v0.7 files as distributed", and now I can't untangle the fix from the new v0.8 code.

The AI doesn't like having its units killed with kill(false,...) but it doesn't mind kill(true). So if you take the change that I sent, and put kill(true,...) instead, I believe it will work.

 

[The_Coyote]

Why do you call that game lost? Or, is that just because your city pop put him up over the victory limit?

yes the population of my capital put him over the limit, and i accepted open borders ,

had a new game, this time vision victory disabled, was fun (i think i lost, the strongest AI just declared war on me, 10 - 15 tanks, same number of catapults, ... and my defence is a bit small compared with this force, but perhaps i will play it out). In this game, I think there would be no early vision victory, there are two vision spread among the AI.

The Tankbuster is a nice unit (especially with a great general), but is this a unique unit (only one time per game) or can this unit appear more often, i ask because i had one and was attacked from another (i´m almost 100% sure that it was not the Wanderer)

 

[davidlallen]

Oh my, I had not thought of putting a GG *onto* tankbuster or wanderer. Each of them is basically already a ute with a GG. How many promos do you get out of adding the second GG?

Right now there is no check at all to make sure that tankbuster, wanderer or pilot are only placed once. But suppose I made it happen only once per game max. If one of these units pops for another AI far away, the human player will never be exposed to it. I think they are pretty cool units, so I wanted to make sure the player would see it. Getting jumped by tankbuster might be a fun, slightly nasty surprise, or catching sight of the pilot off somewhere.

What's a good mechanic to make sure they only appear rarely but still the player sees them?

 

[Refar]

kill(true, ...) Did solve it. It looks a bit odd - the truck refuels, drives away and disappears after it's movement is used up. But when i think of it - it makes some sense. And if i hadn't this special truck under observation i wouldn't had noticed.

@The Coyote - what map size / difficultie are you playing ? Never seen the enemy having 15 tanks. Managed to have something like 15 or 20 myself on 0.5, but then david reduced the chance to pop them

 

[The_Coyote]

must be because of the fear, checked again, there were not 10 tanks, "only" 5 and 3 artillery (+ 5 Jeep Rifle and 6 or 7 catapults and some infantry, Guardsman and AntiTank). Perhaps there is a change to win. Checked also WB, the AI has 3 depots and one new artillery. Map size is standard, 7 players and Noble

The Tankbuster, combat 1-3, tactics, leadership, camouflage, Road Warrior 1 - 3, Heavy armour, weapon mount, antitankmount, less fuel III with 45 exp, giving him +220% attack (additional +50% vs amoured vehicles), 0-2 first strikes and immunity against first strikes, withdrawal change of 70%, desert bonus movement and the malus (-30%) for attacking in certain areas. Think not overpowered compared with a tank, but still nice

 

[GeoModder]

To contemplate on the ruined biolab idea, how about a ruined silo which can go boom? Nuclear explosion and all surrounding stuff is obliterated.

 

[arkham4269]

Another feature that might be one of those 'landmarks' that changes in every game, might be "Boneyard" which would allow for the creation of cheaper planes or allow a one time bonus of a few planes and then would act as a air base. I mean if it wasn't destroyed, the real Boneyard would be a bonanza for planes. I guess this could work with naval ships since there are various merchant marine storage areas as well.

 

[davidlallen]

@ geomodder: I had thought about making the rebuilt tech unreliable -- each turn there is a percent chance it will be unable to move/attack, maybe permanently. Then a great sci/engineer could be stationed on the rebuilt improvement to generate more reliable units, and there could be a "mechanic" promotion which makes units more reliable and gives a chance to avoid breakdown in nearby units. The idea of a disaster happening at the silo is related to this idea of reliability.

Maybe I will put that in after everybody agrees fuel truck management is not too painful. If we have painful fuel, and painful reliability, then nobody will find it "fun".

 

[davidlallen]

Another feature that might be one of those 'landmarks' that changes in every game, might be "Boneyard" which would allow for the creation of cheaper planes or allow a one time bonus of a few planes and then would act as a air base. I mean if it wasn't destroyed, the real Boneyard would be a bonanza for planes. I guess this could work with naval ships since there are various merchant marine storage areas as well.

I think "ruined airbase" is exactly boneyard. I have resisted putting naval units in so far to hold the player on a single continent for now. The reason for this will become clear when I add the code showing the player why this apocalypse really happened. But, a ruined naval base would be a good thing to add. Another playtester has suggested a unique item which is a nuclear power plant from a bombed out aircraft carrier, which would fit.

 

[Refar]

Another idea - i am not sure where it fits so i just post it here... The setting is a lot about scavenging, so a actual scavenger ability might be cool.

I was thinking a "Scavenger" Promotion, or a dedicated unit meybe. Every time such a unit is killing something its owner get a small boost - a few (Really fey like random 1 - 5) , or in the next city.

 

[westamastaflash]

Another thing I noticed. With the lack of Health Resources & Buildings, the Expansive Trait has become INCREDIBLY good (and your granaries are built at 2x speed too!)

Industrious could really use a lot of work (perhaps move the Creative bonus of +2 safety to it?)

Aggressive probably should give Combat I to Utility trucks as well?