Please leave the forests? (Monarch-level)

[Ayrton Senna]

I see a lot of players advises to tech fast to bronze working, and chop settlers.

It seems to me that other strategies are also possible.
In the last games i keep the forests for a steady hammer production combined with the fast growth of the Ottomans and the fine building of the Hamman.
Later on the hammers get dirty with lumbermills and railroad.

I must say the strategies works out, although i did not win.

Are there any players who are willing to discuss my alternate strategie?

Ayrton Senna

 

[Herrhals]

i personally try to keep as many forests as possible and work other tiles. 95% of the time I save brown hill forests even on riverside. the 3p is nice initially, and with Lm + RR = mine. There is the question of early hammer bonus vs. future bonus (health)

I sometimes save brown flat tile forests provided they are not riverside, depends if I can work something else or not instead. I chop ALL riverside forests (except brown hill maybe) to cottage or w.e my game-plan is.

NEVER actually work forests (except forested brown hill again if rushing a building or unit pumping), because the other improved tiles, will have much better yields.

remember you need 2 forests to gain 1 healthy. That means if you have an odd number of forests, chop at least 1.

Honestly, I like keeping 4 or 6 forests in a city throughout the game. Being a non freshwater city, will increase this, also bc the city can't build hydro power and must focus on unhealthy coal to power up.

 

[Ecori]

I'm willing to discuss it, but not adapt it

I usually leave plain forests since plains are a weak tile and LM them when I get RP. Grassland forests are better chopped. Working a grassland forest is not optimal and I would rather have a cottage/farm or even workshop instead of the forest. On top of that chopping can really speed up the early game and make a huge difference. I don't know which level you play on, but on immortal you gotta be quick with the first 2-3 settlers or the good spots will be settled by the AI. Here chopping is crucial. And offcourse chopping into wonders is almost nessecary to build thm before the AI.

 

[Ayrton Senna]

Honestly, I like keeping 4 or 6 forests in a city throughout the game. Being a non freshwater city, will increase this, also bc the city can't build hydro power and must focus on unhealthy coal to power up.

I skip the coal plants, and use nuclear.

 

[Yared]

Depends really on your city, your empire and their respective needs.

add on

Keep in mind, though, that as the game progresses the chopping power gets diminished. Units and buildings only get more and more expensive. As such, if by chopping down 5 forest tiles leads to you being able to annex half your neighbour's empire, you should. Rather than waste that opportunity. Of course, as the game progresses forest tiles gain more value.

The optimal thing is to chop around your capital and your first 4-6 cities. After that, you'll probably be gaining more from keeping them in your later #7+ cities.

Amirite?

 

[lymond]

I must say the strategies works out, although i did not win.
Ayrton Senna

I have to say that the above statement doesn't compute for me, although I have no idea of the parameters of your game. Regardless, I think some chopping is needed at higher levels, especially early to get an advantage. I can certainly see keeping some forests around for health, later chopping, etc. and of course in some cities where lumbermills are optimal or the National Park. Otherwise, I consider most forest tiles as "unimproved" and, therefore, sub-optimal.

 

[reverend oats]

Leaving the forests is viable through monarch, mayyybe emperor, but at that level+ in order to get an early wonder, pull off an axe rush, or claim the juicy city spots, you must clear cut your capital, at least.

 

[StrategeryBush]

I play emperor. I usually try to leave some forests and also leave unimproved tiles adjacent to them to encourage the occasional forest to grow back. I also try to leave a pattern of forests which maximize the chance for forest regrowth. It takes a long time for you to get to the point where the 2-3 forests you have plus 3-4 unimproved and unroaded tiles impair your city. Once your cities get to size 10-12, you may need to rethink the forests, or at least improve the vacant tiles. Long term, the health and the lumber mills are helpful. All of that being said, if you need to chop forests in your capitol or your second/third cities to create early settlers for land blocks, for an axe rush, or for a critical wonder, then by all means do it. I would not chop a forest just to hurry up a granary.

 

[Zeiter]

I think of forests this way: if you are planning on growing up to your health cap (if you are going to be health-limited), then a forest is actually worth 0.5 food and 1 hammer. So the decision becomes:

2.5 food, 1 hammer grassland forest tile vs. 2 food, 1-->2-->3-->4 commerce + 20-->30 upfront hammers.

With lumbermills & railroads, forests effectively become 2.5 food, 3 hammer tiles. Pretty good.

 

[reverend oats]

Except that the health cap is almost never a problem until at the earliest HR, and after that it is a soft cap, with nothing too horrible if you exceed it.

 

[Shurdus]

I skip the coal plants, and use nuclear.

This is where I stopped taking this seriously. Nuclear plants have a tendency to go boom and when they do, they devastate a city. Coal plants may be less good, but they do not explode making them my favorite by far. Also coal plants are available sooner making coal plants about the last building you will ever need unless you go space.

On topic: forests are there for production bonusses. Chopping them gives you a huge boost, and lumber mills come really late. This combined makes it so that chopping forrests in favor of farms for added whipping power wins out over using forrests for the hammers. Lumber mills may be decent, but they come way to late for me to plan ahead getting them.

 

[lilnev]

I often chop the capital heavily early on, and most cities will get 1-3 chops for monument, granary, possibly workboats. Beyond that, I try to leave forests until after Mathematics, when they're worth more.

 

[StrategeryBush]

Except that the health cap is almost never a problem until at the earliest HR, and after that it is a soft cap, with nothing too horrible if you exceed it.

Granted, however, unless you are at least approaching the health cap, you don't have the population pressure to need to utilize those tiles. The forests represent stored production if you need them, and represent maybe 1/8 to 1/4 of a per turn (my guess) of additional production from potential forest growth if you have provided for that possibility.

The cost of exceeding the health cap is some fraction of a specialist, or is the you lose out on by needing to work a 3, no farm instead of a mine. It is not game breaking, but it is not THAT much worse than having people.

As most decisions in Civ come down to, to chop or not to chop becomes a question of balancing a long term good against a short term gain. A fully developed forest square is a plus tile in the long term for a large city. Sometimes you also get lucky and grow a couple of extra forests and you can turn a better city into your NE city than you might otherwise have done.

 

[mirthadir]

Chopping is now, everything else is, at best, later. Now consider what the graph of your industrial output looks like at the end of the game. Virtually always it slopes steepily upward and is exponential in shape. Why? Well over time you get bigger working more tiles and can do more with the tiles you have. Both of these are from leveraging and (or their functional equivalents); thus you utlimate output is a compounding function. The earlier you start compounding, the more you get (which is why, smart guys start their 401k in high school or at least ASAP after college).

Forests are good as health, as "reserve" , and for increasing production in locations that otherwise lack it prior to MC (assuming slaving is not an option). That is all pretty marginal. You can win without chopping, but it is much harder.

 

[trc]

I see a lot of players advises to tech fast to bronze working, and chop settlers.

It seems to me that other strategies are also possible.
In the last games i keep the forests for a steady hammer production combined with the fast growth of the Ottomans and the fine building of the Hamman.
Later on the hammers get dirty with lumbermills and railroad.

I must say the strategies works out, although i did not win.

Are there any players who are willing to discuss my alternate strategie?

Ayrton Senna

At mid to late game, my core cities are using every tile a available. Plan forest is simply a tile that isn't as productive as it could be.

More importantly, keep in mind that forest adds a defensive bonus.. Good at your perimeters, bad if an an attacking army can use them. +25/+50 on city adjacent tiles for your enemy could be game breaking.

Much prefer early growth and managing health with tech.