Please STOP nerfing magic!!

[someone67]

Wow, Kael actually listened to my advice on spells for once--at least to the part about Destroy Undead. Patch k increases the damage from 20 to 30 and eliminates the cap, making it the only lethal direct damage spell a normal arcane unit can cast.

Can you still attack your own undead units with Destroy Undead? If so, liches are now able to commit suicide by spell casting

 

[MagisterCultuum]

He didn't specify, so I believe you can. Suicidal Liches are kinda cool, as long as the AI doesn't use this ability too much. Perhaps there should be a block preventing this. The AI wouldn't cast Destroy Undead unless at war with the owner of at least one undead unit within range, but if there are undead units of both sides near by they might be dumb enough to use it.

Of course, the spell doesn't really deal enough base damage to be lethal except against units that are already pretty injured. A healthy Lich would have to cast the spell at least twice to kill itself.


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One more tiny spell suggestion: make Auric Ascended's version of Snowfall change terrains permanently instead of temporarily. That could get rid of a lot of micromanagement when playing as the Illians, and make the issue where Temples of the Hand built right after the Deepening have their terrain revert less problematic.

 

[Arcite36575]

This is an excellent idea. Makes them primarily a bombardment tool. In fact, make it 2 and increase their collateral damage to compensate and they become city and stack breakers, rather than an all round killing spell.

I agree. This is a good idea. Also, nerfing magic in general more would make artillery more useful than it currently is. I generally only use catapults for the first 200 turns or so until I get either Air II or Chalid and then the game becomes broken.

 

[phnx0221]

I agree with Aruic's snowfall making changes perm.

 

[Methuselah]

I agree with Aruic's snowfall making changes perm.

Same here.

It's a lot of effort to summon him in the first place, a bit of power like that could take him places.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

I agree. This is a good idea. Also, nerfing magic in general more would make artillery more useful than it currently is. I generally only use catapults for the first 200 turns or so until I get either Air II or Chalid and then the game becomes broken.

If the enemy AI could be taught to field chalid or Air II mages properly, then it would be fair play on both sides. The problem isn't that certain features are grossly overpowered, but the fact that the AI simply can't make good use of a number of tools, many of which are rightly some of the most powerful tools in the game.

This nerf of maelstrom will ultimately change nothing. Instead of using air II, players will use Ritualists and ring of flames to the same, if not greater effect. Before air II there was meteor which was considered overpowered. Maelstrom took it's place and magic was none the weaker and the fundamental problem remained. Now we'll have some new spell(there are plenty to pick form) that can cripple entire stacks, their will be complaints about that spell, and the cycle will repeat again. Until the AI can be taught to use these tools effectively, their will always be some spell that is considered overpowered.

What saddens me a bit about this is that instead of teaching the AI to use the current set of tools properly (you maelstrom their stack down by 50%, they do the same to yours, and the game goes on), tools that the AI can't use well are nerfed. In the process, a number of good mechanics are removed and the mod becomes a little less unique. There are plenty of spells that exist that are easily acquired that can still decimate the AI with relative ease: ring of flames, blinding light, tsunami, fireball (ironic that some already want to nerf this eh?), etc. How long until we see a new thread along the lines of:

"I generally only use catapults for the first 200 turns or so until I get [insert unit name here] with [insert spell name here]."

 

[Kael]

The point of balance isn't to make the AI any better or worse. Its to make a variety of options all viable. If there are a few spell spheres which you always use because they are far better than the others then we have a balance issue. They used to be pretty bad (even better spells in some spheres, even worse spells in others). Its better now though we continue to work on it.

I dont accept the fact that something will always be better so its not worth balancing. Although logicially in selections this large there will always be better and worse to some degree, anything we can do to minimize that dispariety is worthwhile.

 

[WarKirby]

What saddens me a bit about this is that instead of teaching the AI to use the current set of tools properly (you maelstrom their stack down by 50%, they do the same to yours, and the game goes on), tools that the AI can't use well are nerfed. In the process, a number of good mechanics are removed and the mod becomes a little less unique. There are plenty of spells that exist that are easily acquired that can still decimate the AI with relative ease: ring of flames, blinding light, tsunami, fireball (ironic that some already want to nerf this eh?), etc. How long until we see a new thread along the lines of:

But then it would just become a game of both sides spamming maelstrom instead of one, and other spells still not being used.

The AI being able to properly use an overpowered spell wouldn't make it any less overpowered. In fact, it would just force the players to use it more, as the most effective tactic available.

 

[Kenjister]

This is an excellent idea. Makes them primarily a bombardment tool. In fact, make it 2 and increase their collateral damage to compensate and they become city and stack breakers, rather than an all round killing spell.

I think I'll have to disagree here. As it stands, fireball is one of the very few tier 2 spells that actually kill. Nerfing it to make it a collateral only (pretty much) spell would IMO make too similar to maelstrom or other direct damage spells. If it is to be nerfed, then I say that it should get it's collateral reduced instead of strength. Flavorwise it makes sense too, you're not spewing fire across wide ranges, your throwing a big ball of it at a single target.
I personally think that it isn't too overpowered at the moment. Plently of things in FfH dish out tons of collateral, and mages make pretty good targets for the AI's hordes of assasins.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I don't think that Crown of Brillance was nearly as powerful as Pillar of Fire. I think that eliminating Chalid's unit specific spell (or changing it to be unit specific for Brigit or Seraphim) would have been better.

While the fact that FfH's resident caster blaster of doom hero belongs to Empyrean is a little fishy, I really like Chalid's design from a gameplay standpoint, and would be sad if Pillar of Fire were removed or only made available to one race/on a small percentage of maps. I think his build, a stack-murdering offensive caster who is balanced out by the fact that his religion only has 1 hero, needs to stay - just, it's currently misplaced.

The same goes for Luriduses. One of the religions has the perk that if you get their high priests, you can start murdering the crap out of stacks with a replaceable NU? Cool! ...but why's it Empyrean?

Though, I am struggling to think of a good perk to give Empyrean should they lose the current form of Chalid, which would be an obstacle that would have to be addressed. I dunno, they'd still have Chalid, maybe shift his focus to more of a support role? Give him medic 3, sentry 2 and perfect sight on top of the free sentry 1 he already gets, take away pillar of fire and change the empyrean high priest spell to something else (hell if I know what this would be - I'm still wrestling with this. Maybe lifespark? It would synergize with the priests's medic abilities, not be obsoleted by them, in its old form). Maybe he could get weapon promos back.

As for the person to become the "new old Chalid", Mardero seems like a great fit. Give him pillar of fire + the abilities of his religion's high priest like Chalid currently has. Might consider rejiggering the AV priest spells like you did with the law sphere some time back - the summon gets moved down to L2 and summons some lower level demon than a Balor, while ring of fire gets significantly buffed and moved up to Profane level. After that whole thing where you shoehorned StW into a civic category with a bunch of useful options that you have to give up, a buff like this to AV doesn't sound too bad.

 

[smusebaer]

Fireballs are good as they are, and the maelstorm nerf ist no problem. For me the biggest nerf to magic was merging summoner and mages. Ok, summoner where not very usefull, but now every archmage can learn a lot of summonings, and the normal spells are very few. Mostly the elemental lvl. 3 spells are a big loss. I think there are more than enough ideas for new spell. But they are all blocked with summonings.
Or the djinn of metamagic. Instead of a spellshield or something like that, another summoning...
Why?

 

[odalrick]

I think I'll have to disagree here. As it stands, fireball is one of the very few tier 2 spells that actually kill. Nerfing it to make it a collateral only (pretty much) spell would IMO make too similar to maelstrom or other direct damage spells. If it is to be nerfed, then I say that it should get it's collateral reduced instead of strength. Flavorwise it makes sense too, you're not spewing fire across wide ranges, your throwing a big ball of it at a single target.
I personally think that it isn't too overpowered at the moment. Plently of things in FfH dish out tons of collateral, and mages make pretty good targets for the AI's hordes of assasins.

At least four other level two spells kill, and one level one. Are there any other general damage dealers than Maelstrom and Fireball? And maelstrom lacks any precision what so ever. I know no other spell bombards.

Flavourwise it makes sense as well, if you see a big ball of fire coming your way, you duck and cower. A moment later you might be burnt, but the fireball is gone. Only summons can linger to finish you off.

Actually, I think Fireball is pretty good as is, I was just disagreeing with the OP. And flavour can be adjusted to fit function.

 

[zup]

Or a moment later you are a small pile of ash, whether you duck or not.

 

[Neomega]

I still think that Destroy undead really needs to actually destroy undead units. Having a spell htat works against so few units deal a maximum of 50 damage makes it really weak imho. Since there aren't a lot of valid targets, I really think that his spell should loose the damage cap (even if the average damage isn't boosted at all) and thus be able to actually destroy undead like the name implies rather than just injure them.

or just be more powerful. I was really disappointed when I used it, though.

 

[uberfish]

Maelstrom was a bit overpowered but it did serve a couple of useful purposes which are sorely missed now:

1) reduced the tedium of warfare by making it painless to mop up cities with only a few units in them once the enemy's main army was defeated (Fireballs have low bombard % and it's too slow to sit there for 3 turns bombarding or spend 3 turns crawling from city to city with catapults), the 30% damage cap still gives you unpleasant odds against the AI's high level longbows where at 50% you could rely on your elite units to clean up mostly.

Solutions: we need a specialized siege spell on mages that does 20-25% per mage, I would put it at earth 2 and cut stoneskin because Guardsman promotions are a much better solution to assassins


2) it levelled the playing field between religions by giving everyone access to 50% collateral at tier 3, now RoF and tsunami are SUPER unbalanced as opposed to just unbalanced since priests are much easier to mass produce than mages.

Solution: Nerf tsunami to 50% cap and RoF to the same level maelstrom ends up at

 

[Grey Fox]

If you don't think magic is overpowered try playing MP.

Or use magic vs the AI when you play, easiest time you've ever have invading a city.


And as Kael says, it's to make a variety of options all viable. If one spell is better than every other, players will always use that spell or Magic over melee or mounted.

If one thing is much better than other similar mechanics, the other mechanics suffer.

EDIT:
One game type which never stop balancing is MMOs. But it's cause balance goes in waves. First someone discovers something overpowered, and shares it with his friends. Then their enemies notice their strategy or item use and start copying them. Then all of a sudden everyone uses the same weapon, ship, vehicle or character class on the entire server and 99% of the game is unused.

EDIT2:
The same thing with when something is underpowered, then people stop using that object, or feel cheated cause what they have worked so hard for to use isn't as good as it should be. So it requires a boost. But here you can start a new wave if you are not careful.
I really like the whole science of balancing and would like to study it sometime I think, it's a very difficult subject. You can't just do it mathematical on paper though it's probably best to start that way, it requires tons of testing, especially in an MMO environment or something with many variables like a strategy game.

 

[Kenjister]

At least four other level two spells kill, and one level one. Are there any other general damage dealers than Maelstrom and Fireball? And maelstrom lacks any precision what so ever. I know no other spell bombards.

Flavourwise it makes sense as well, if you see a big ball of fire coming your way, you duck and cower. A moment later you might be burnt, but the fireball is gone. Only summons can linger to finish you off.

Actually, I think Fireball is pretty good as is, I was just disagreeing with the OP. And flavour can be adjusted to fit function.

oops, my bad. I always forget about the death line and such... guess I'm playing too much Good. It is though the only tier 2 with flying ( I think ) though making it very good for cleanup. and I guess I also got the divine line mixed in, since that's where most of the direct damage spells are. you are right about the lack of those for mages though, my bad. I guess that priests are just so common that it's hard to ignore them. (curse you AI ritualists roasting my stacks!!!)
I just think that though a spell bombard fills an unused gap, it would be quite useless, as bombarding only has a noticable effect on full health units, something quite rare with all the direct damage spells.
yeah, I should of never brought up flavor in the first place, people can argue that all day long and both be right

I do think fireball is good as is, though maybe, just maybe, the collateral should be reduced to make it more of a niche roll of a cleanup unit that goes over those blasted forested hills.
not trying to argue here, just throwing the ideas out

 

[Yaotzin]

My main irritation with spells like Maelstrom is that a couple of freshly produced mages are just as good with it as an old Archmage. Generally in FFH, highly promoted units are really, really strong, yet mages only really become more versatile, which doesn't really matter as you can just build more mages to do a variety of things.

So what I'd really like is something like highly promoted Archmages having a higher damage cap than new mages. I'm not sure how, Combat and Metamagic promotions aren't that hard to get, a fresh Amurite mage has Combat V already IIRC. I just want my old Archmage/Hemah/whatever to be much stronger than a couple of mages, they aren't really at the moment (yeah, some powerful level 3 spells, but a couple of spectre spammers are pretty darned powerful too).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You could make it so that the Channeling promotions themselves boost the maximun damage.

 

[kumquatelvis]

I'm surprised that no one has complained about Tsunami. Sure, it only works on coastal cities, but the AI builds lots of those. And it does so much damage that you can conquer even huge cities with the greatest of ease.