Pledge of Allegiance ruled unconstitutional...

[amadeus]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...p/20020626/ap_on_re_us/pledge_of_allegiance_6

This is absolutely ridiculous. I'm suprised that American currency hasn't been outlawed because of "In God We Trust."

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Same here! I just read that and was about to start a thread on it when I saw this one. They deleted the phrase "under god" from it now. Makes it shorter, saves time i guess

 

[amadeus]

Actually, I believe they didn't rule out the words, they BANNED the pledge from schools, etc. in that jurisdiction.

 

[insurgent]

Soon they'll be banning your signature, rmsharpe...

 

[amadeus]

Instead of having a few petty bureaucrats and political correct screwballs ruling like this, there should be a referendum called for this. You'd get a landslide vote IN FAVOR of the pledge.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

I read a story that says all they did was overturn the 1954(?) senate ruling to add under god to it which would make it legal to say in schools but it also added that it was currently unlawful to make kids say it.

 

[Citizen_K]

Gee, I'm glad I don't live in Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, Oregon or Washington state.

 

[Ohwell]

Its a good thing they finally did this, the pledge is bad enough. Forcing kids to say such a thing as a pledge of allegience is horrible, and the "under god" part is worse.

 

[Grisu]

what exactly is said in this pledge of allegiance? is it some prayer thing or what?

 

[Goodie Hut]

My sincerest thanks to liberal types who really seem to love destroying the culture in this country.

Ohwell, what makes you say that forcing children to recite the pledge is a bad thing? Not flaming you, I'd just like to know.

 

[Fez_Monk]

I think it is wrong to force someone to say the Pledge. If kids want to do it on their own time, or before class, then fine, but no one should ever be forced to do it.


I wonder if they will outlaw my sig too.

 

[Gastric ReFlux]

Originally posted by Goodie Hut
My sincerest thanks to liberal types who really seem to love destroying the culture in this country.

Ohwell, what makes you say that forcing children to recite the pledge is a bad thing? Not flaming you, I'd just like to know.

Hmm, forcing children to recite the pledge in a country with ideals of freedom.

That seems a bit ironic.

 

[Padma]

KaeptnOvi, here is the text:

I pledge allegience to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic, for which it stands,
One Nation, under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

The words "under God" were added in the 1930's IIRC. They seem to be the main contention about it these days.

Edit: "under God" was added in 1954.

 

[Ohwell]

Originally posted by Goodie Hut
Ohwell, what makes you say that forcing children to recite the pledge is a bad thing?

Well, by forcing children to recite any pledge of allegiance to an idea, person or place, you are forcing your ideals on children. You would be spoon-feeding propaganda to children, who will of course believe everything they hear. The pledge promotes nationalism, which is a horrible thing. It is comparable to palestinian children being told how to bomb israelis.

 

[Padma]

I think the skit/story Red Skelton performed in 1969 on his television show may be appropriate herre:

Commentary on the Pledge of Allegiance

by Red Skelton

The following words were spoken by the late Red Skelton on his television program as he related the story of his teacher, Mr. Laswell, who felt his students had come to think of the Pledge of Allegiance as merely something to recite in class each day.

"I've been listening to you boys and girls recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it seems as though it is becoming monotonous to you. If I may, may I recite it and try to explain to you the meaning of each word?"

I -- me, an individual, a committee of one.

PLEDGE -- dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity.

ALLEGIANCE -- my love and my devotion.

TO THE FLAG -- our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there's respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job!

UNITED -- that means that we have all come together.

STATES -- individual communities that have united into 48 great states. Forty-eight individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose; all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common purpose, and that's love for country.

AND TO THE REPUBLIC -- a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people.

FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION -- one nation, meaning "so blessed by God"

INDIVISIBLE -- incapable of being divided.

WITH LIBERTY -- which is freedom -- the right of power to live one's own life without threats, fear or some sort of retaliation.

AND JUSTICE -- the principle or quality of dealing fairly with others.

FOR ALL -- which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine.

And now, boys and girls, let me hear you recite the Pledge of Allegiance:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance...

UNDER GOD

Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that is a prayer and that would be eliminated from schools too?

Red Skelton

 

[Hitro]

Originally posted by Ohwell
Well, by forcing children to recite any pledge of allegiance to an idea, person or place, you are forcing your ideals on children. You would be spoon-feeding propaganda to children, who will of course believe everything they hear. The pledge promotes nationalism, which is a horrible thing. It is comparable to palestinian children being told how to bomb israelis.

Although this will earn you alot of flames I want to say that I think you're very right. No child anywhere should be forced to pledge allegiance to anything, a free country shouldn't do something like that.
Now letting children pledge allegiance to a flag or country is bad enough but the God phrase makes it even worse. In a country where freedom of religion is in place secularism should be in place as well. And as there are people who believe in polytheistic religions or no religion at all a pledge involving some God shouldn't be forced on people.

 

[Goodie Hut]

Since when is nationalism and taking pride in your country a bad thing?

I didn't notice that you are from Omaha, Padme. Me too.

 

[Padma]

One more quick quote, from Francis Bellamy, who wrote the original pledge in 1892:

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

(@Goodie Hut: actually, it's Bellevue. BTW it's PadmA, a different character. )

 

[Grisu]

I agree with hitro. don't get me wrong: I don't think that this pledge of allegiance is a bad thing and if I were american I would probably happily recite it, but I think nobody (especialy children) should be force to say it. a pledge that is forced upon you is a hollow promise anyway, so if they don't want to say it out of their own free will it won't mean a thing.

EDIT: Thanks for the text, Padma

 

[CrazyScientist]

Look, I carry a certain fondness for the Pledge as well, but what the heck is wrong with just saying, "...One nation, Indivisible..."? It flows better, and it doesn't violate the constitution that way. From what I understand that's the way it was said pre-1950's anyway.

And, just a note here, no kid is ever forced to say the pledge. I mean, it's sort of a tradition that at the beginning of the school day the class stands up and says it, but I moved around to many areas of the country as a kid and I can't ever remember anyone being forced into it in any school I ever attended.