Poland as 1 of 10 new Civilizations added in BTS?

[Lance of Llanwy]

Nice, nice...
Now you have some good points, especially the Austrians are Germans, which is true. Now the point still remains the massive empire under the Austrian and Hapsburgs name, you may not be seeing the wood from the trees here but, I have a real thing about empire over people. I hate the idea of a Native American civilization for that reason, and the celts somewhat annoy me, but I have already given up that rant. Though I am still of the belief that Vienna and Austria do deserve a civ of their own for some of the greatly significant things they had achived and more importantly what the Hapsburgs had done. Though it would be hard in the format of the game to have a Hapsburgs empire. But yes, in allot of Ways Austria was sort of like a more modern Poland, Big empire for a few hundred years then collapse, but they were also an intergral part of the Holy Roman Empire, but it is true they can be under the name of German threre.

Maybe I need to put it down to decide yourselves. I know I think they should be in. Austria was a great and powerful empire that covered allot of Eastern Europe and the Balkans. But the question is down to were they powerful enough for long enough.

In the same way I think Poland should be in a future expansion, but still NOT THIS ONE. I think poland is just under the line at which I would put it in. But you know.

Also Austria is very different to Bavaria now, they have crafted a new identity, remember in under william the conquerer the official language of England was French. Shakespear made nearly half the english language, and english is now essentially a hybrid of Germanic, Romantic & Celtic languages. Things change with time.

Let's add Makedonia...and the Seleukid Empire. And while we're at it, the Ptolemaic Empire too. They're all covered by pre-existing civs in both rulers and subject peoples, but let's add them because they had a lot of land at some point...and hell of a lot more than Austria ever did, at that! Let's not forget the Timurids either. Maybe, in another 500 years, there will be an Austrian identity that is distinct from Germany, but the two were inseperable until about 60 years ago.

Austria fits under the blanket of "German". Had Austria united the disparate German states and left Prussia in the lurch, people would be arguing how Prussia should be included and how it is different from Germany.

With both Portugal and the Dutch in, I've had enough European civilizations. Let's not forget that Asia and even Africa had some pretty impressive civilizations, some of which even are around today, and none of which are debateable as to whether or not they don't already fit under the heading of a pre-existing Civ, and many of them ruled empires that no one in the west learns about because the west is too damned busy gazing at its own reflection in the pond...

 

[Kaiser Mac Cleg]

Well said Lance!
Sorry, but this ongoing rant about Austria is beginning to annoy me. Firaxis should be looking for new CIVILIZATIONS, not european nation states or empires that existed for a century or so. Austria, for me, is essentially another state that has German culture, or at least culture that is similar to Germany's. It may have ruled an empire, but then I can think of many other empires that have existed and haven't been included in the main game (the Kushan empire and the Parthian empire to name just two).

But the final Civs have already been decided (I'd be rather worried if they weren't) and we can't change what Firaxis has decided upon anyway.

 

[LDeska]

Pokurcz, leave him alone - he needs attention, if we ignore him, he will get back to do his homework
Barton - you have right to have your own opinion, post it here and do not attack people who have different opinion than you do. It's the bottom line I support BTW - your historical background need to be improved

I also would like to see more non-Europeans civs, but it's not changing that I still miss Poland in civ4...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Also Barton please stop or leave the topic before this topic becomes a flame war or before people start posting racist comments.

OH and yes Austria should be in before Poland, but Poland has a chance. It was quite insulting to hear that a civ smaller then Nauru should be in before Poland.

 

[Pokurcz]

First of a, Poland acted entirely out of line by taking things into their own hands. Germany had been more screwed by Versailles than anyone else. Poland only ended up existing because of Wilson's 14 points, but you know, defent ungreatful jackasses to the high hills.

Now if order to explain why I started with "I don't watch..." is because I answer from the bottom of a post to the top, unless its quite long, or boaring me. And yes, I am a superhero, Bartonman, with the ability to lead a new land into the 20th century with large tariffs because I'm overly Xenophobic.

Low social status, *looks around*, you come to this conclusion cause I got boared and came here, in which case that would mean the same to you. If you want to know my reasons, I am currently suffering from a cold and have gone home to my in the country to relax and I need something to occupy myself. The I'm awesome, your not really shows my low social status doesn't it. Or it may just be I am just really awesome. I think it may be you of the low social status due to the way you seem to take on my ego so. Though you may never touch it for I am so supremly awesome. *Smiles to himself and unleashes the monkey whilst listening to real music [Money for Nothing]*

The third person thing, ???. Just how I put it. *I look around* doesn't sound or look right. It just sounds better to me thats all.

I'll just say that God helps those who help themselves, and I mean it in a totally secular way. No one took it in to their hands so Poland did it itself.

You seem to fit the archetype of the typical westerner who can't understand the magnitude of the misdeeds of the Bolsheviks in those days.

Anyway as long as your listening to "real music" I guess your justifying your existence.

 

[Lacaixa]

Barton..

When I saw your list the words' foot', 'shot himself 'and 'in the' sprang to mind . Though not necessarily in that order.

As for where it differs from the actual and suggested Civ list other than just the ancient names then would I prefer Brazil to the Hittites , absolutely ... Ethiopia to Sumerians , I think so.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Calm down people ,especially Barton . Don't go banging your head. First of all I'm not Polish and have no nationalistic motive for seeing Poland or any other country or civ in the game. I would say however that Eastern Europe as compared to Western Europe lacks representation.

Representation? We aren't discussing parliamentary elections, you know. "Justice" does not come into it. If that were the case. we would need to add several African and Latin American countries. (I agree with those who see a hidden racistic agenda behind this constant baying for more European civilizations.) We are talking about significant civilizations, and Russia is the only country in eastern Europe that can be deemed to possess significance from a global perspective.

 

[Lacaixa]

I'm from England so I really don't know much about Eastern Europe . If you say there is no civilisation of significance between Berlin and Bryansk I have to believe you.

 

[Kaiser Mac Cleg]

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

 

[Lacaixa]

I agree with you Kaiser. Either Poland or The Magyars should be in before Firaxis dig up another long forgotten Middle Eastern/ Mediterranean civ who weren't even a household name in their own house.

 

[Traitorfish]

I agree with you Kaiser. Either Poland or The Magyars should be in before Firaxis dig up another long forgotten Middle Eastern/ Mediterranean civ who weren't even a household name in their own house.

When did they ever do that? The closest thing I can remember would be adding the Hittites in Conquests, and the Hittites are hardly "long forgotten". Maybe not the ideal choice, I'll grant you, but not quite the same as some long-dead, obscure little nation from the arse end of nowhere.
Of course, maybe my view is skewed from having an archaeologist for a mother- "Hittite" really was a household name.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

The Ottomans controlled most of the Balkans at one point, but they were never a "country in Eastern Europe". Their heartland was, and is, Asia Minor, and they controlled wide lands from Egypt through Arabia to the Caucasus and western Iran. As for the Byzantines, they were at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power. Austria or, rather, the Habsburg Empire (which was a major player from considerably earlier than the 19th century), was not specifically an eastern European power. If we are to talk about countries that genuinely are eastern European, then the only one that cuts the mustard as a civilization of global significance is Russia.

Lacaixa: The operative word here is *global* significance.

 

[Traitorfish]

The Ottomans controlled most of the Balkans at one point, but they were never a "country in Eastern Europe". Their heartland was, and is, Asia Minor, and they controlled wide lands from Egypt through Arabia to the Caucasus and western Iran. As for the Byzantines, they were at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power.

Sounds like you just contradicted yourself- one minute, the Ottomans were not Eastern European because they were not based there, the next the Byzantines were not Eastern European because their power extended beyond that region. How does that work?

 

[Barton]

Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Wait, maybe if I say it again it might just possibly make sense. okay, Poland is stuck between Russia and Germany... and so they can't be great. Nope, not working.

So, let us dismantle your "argument".

You argument starts with an assumtion and then goes onto say that a countries population could qualify it to be in a computer game of Great Civilizations. This population of course is from today, so in other words places like Babylon are no longer in. So by your method the civs in the game are
1. China
2. India
3. USA
4. Indonesia
5. Brazil
6. Pakistan
7. Bangaladesh
8. Nigeria
9. Russia
10. Japan
11. Mexico
12. The Phillipines
13. Vietnam
14. Germany
15. Ethiopia
16. Egypt
17. Turkey
18. Iran
19. France
20. Thailand
21. DRC
22. UK
23. Cheaters
24. Myanmar
25. South Africa
26. South Korea
27. Ukraine
28. Spain
29. Colombia
30. Tanzania
31. Argentina
32. Sudan
33. Poland
34. Kenya

Genius, pure Genius!

Next, their great, however they didn't have the power to compete with those around them and so never became great. Like in AFL, you think they need pity-points for missing the main goal of being awesome. I think Kuwait should be in for being stuck between Iraq and Iran, yeah *smashes head against desk*.

I rate your argument:
*Drum Rolls*
Labor's 2004 election campaign
Congratulations, your a failure, but don't worry you can get a new leader whilst you current one writes a book on how bad a leader he was and then blames it on other people. Of course that leader will be relaced with a Al Gore like figure who everyone one loves dispite the fact he's full of 'Yasmin's getting Married'.

Getting past all this, no poland, shut up. I suggest we get a WINGE thread for you people. If it was down to pure votes, Hitler would still be in power. If you don't think that makes sense, read everyones arguments about Poland being in, they make much less sense.

Hi-five Dutchking, the dutch rock! They're in and all is good in the world. The poles arn't in yet and the balence remains. [The Dutch balence the Native Americans and therfore make the game playable]

Does anyone actually read the content of what I have written or do they skim read it, assume they understand what I'm saying and go on to typing something whilst their brain is in a vegatative state.

The list is just the 34 most populous countries as of 2007. Now forgive me if this is not clear. Also for anyone not familiar with the Fifa 2006 world cup, and Italians in general: 94th minute [3 mins added on] in Kaiserslauten, and all of a sudden Grosso kicks the ball to one side and dives spectaculary over Neill. PENALTY the ******ed ref says, Totti converts to give Italy a 1:0 advantage at the 95th minute. So forgive me if I think Australia was robbed by a load of cheaters. ALSO, for Italian fotball fans, you league sucks, you international team as cheated their way to number one, and should probably be shot for it. Also, *cough* match fixing *cough*.

People seem to have some strange belief in the idea that Austria has only been Austria for 60 years. Others seem to state that Austria was somehow not the dominante power of the Holy Roman Empire for a long while and seem to take it as Germany is the Dominant power. Well, lets think here, the Holy Roman Empire was more of a loose association of States bearly controled by a central force, but you know people can;t be expected to understand an Empires inner working before saying what it is. Before Austria became the great power it was during the time before the compromise, it's ruling family, the Hapsburgs had basically been the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. It my take a long time for people to get their minds around this, but the Holy Roman Empire was a name, not a power. Everypart of it ruled itself and they where just united by their Religion, and not by a central power. There was no capital, it was not German, it was not Italian, it was not Austria, it was not Bavarian, it was not Bohemian, it was not anything. You people don't register that Austria was a seperate entity back then as well, it's not just a recent occurance. Bavaria, Prussia... all the German States are seperate as well, but they where united by the Franco-Prussian war. Austria united Bohemia, Moravia, Dalmatia... it forged a Great Empire completly separate from the "Germans".

Now, things to remember:
The Holy Roman Emperor governed over the choices of the individual states, but could not directly control them.
The Holy Roman Empire never had a central government
Austria is seperate to Germany
Al Gore is a Jackass
You can just not type, and save me from doing so in return
Austria was a great empire, so was Poland
Europe is awesome, they are not everything and yes I do think Abbyssinia should be in, so should Khmer and Israel
The Native Americans where a bad choice, in alot of ways the Celts were as well, but at least they had some form of Civilization

Also, Europe is dominant because you was the centre of much of the developments in the world over the last 2 millenias, them and the Middle East... and China.

We need to have Austria to balence the map of Europe, Poland as well... Just not yet. REMEMBER MY LIST
1. Israel
2. Austria
3. Khmer
4. Poland
5. Abbyssinia
...
oh who gives a damn, you people can't listen, just like me you all have your own agendas and opions.

Also, screw solcialism. You wanna be commies.

Back to my Awesomeness, and my Awesome music!!!

 

[Lacaixa]

Traitorfish

The Hittites are an excellent example. Don't get me wrong I'm not eurocentric and would love to see Ethiopa, Maori,Tibet for example . I suspect with such as the Hittites by the time they get to city number 20 they're starting to make stuff up.

 

[Thedrin]

Kaiser Mac Cleg:
Well said Lance!
Sorry, but this ongoing rant about Austria is beginning to annoy me. Firaxis should be looking for new CIVILIZATIONS, not european nation states or empires that existed for a century or so. Austria, for me, is essentially another state that has German culture, or at least culture that is similar to Germany's. It may have ruled an empire, but then I can think of many other empires that have existed and haven't been included in the main game (the Kushan empire and the Parthian empire to name just two).

But the final Civs have already been decided (I'd be rather worried if they weren't) and we can't change what Firaxis has decided upon anyway.

Poland had great significance in the Middle Ages, as did Austria in the 19th century. Not to mention the Byzantines and the Ottomans. To say that there are, and have been, no significant countries in Eastern Europe is, quite frankly, wrong. I'm from Wales so I have no nationalistic agenda here, don't worry!

I can understand why a lot of people don't see the importance of Austria - especially when their knowledge only seems to center around the 19th century and lead up to the first world war. (That's not specifically at you - it's just the impression I get from people in general, particularly when Austria-Hungary is requested rather than just Austria)

Just so you know, in the 16th century Austria was, along with Spain, the most powerful European state. It remained a major power in name until the end of the first world war but had lost a considerable amount of its real power during the nineteenth century (which was when the Austrian-Hungarian state was established).

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Sounds like you just contradicted yourself- one minute, the Ottomans were not Eastern European because they were not based there, the next the Byzantines were not Eastern European because their power extended beyond that region. How does that work?

I said the Byzantines were "at least as much an Asian as a Balkan power." Their heartland was in Asia at least as much as in Europe. Furthermore, their capital was as close to Asia as it could be without actually being in Asia. Look at a historical map and you'll see what I mean.

I suppose a (dubious) case could be made for the Byzantines being "Eastern Europeans", but it would be much more apt to simply call them "Mediterranean" or even "Levantine/Middle Eastern". They lost most of their possessions in the Balkans to invading Slavs at a fairly early time, and after that their most important possessions were Asia Minor, Armenia and Greece. (Most of their later Emperors were either from Constantinople, from Asia Minor or from Armenia.) Asia Minor and Armenia lie in Asia, and of course, Greece is often perceived as being "western European". As for calling the Ottomans "Europeans", it simply doesn't work. You could just as well (or better) declare that the Russians are actually Asians since the larger part of Russia is called Siberia and lies in Asia. It still doesn't feel quite right to call Russia "Asian", does it?

Bottom line: All this talk about how "Eastern Europe needs more representation" or "the Romans are western Europeans and so are the Greeks, but not the Byzantines" means that one cleaves to an artificial perception of all countries and cultures as being wholly of one "continent", when the fact is that continents in themselves are largely an artificial concept where the borders have been redrawn at times - as is definitely the case with concepts such as "Western Europe", "Central Europe" and "North Africa". For example, the ancient Greeks regarded Egypt as being part of what they called Asia whereas today it is officially part of Africa but many debaters here seem to accept it as being "part of the Middle East".

Let's get back to discussing civilizations that would be interesting to have in the game (such as the Khmer, the Hittites, Ethiopia or Polynesia) instead of insisting on some kind of quota system which for some mysterious reason favours Europe (as perceived today) out of all proportion.

 

[Kaiser Mac Cleg]

Sorry, there seems to have been some misunderstanding here. I wasn't trying to say that The Byzantine and Ottoman empires were exclusively eastern European civilizations, although the Byzantine heartland was around the Aegean. The point I was trying to make was that eastern Europe has not been a power vacuum, as it seems you have been saying.

But if you are trying to say that the Byzantine empire wasn't European, I disagree with you. Europe's boundaries are cultural, not geographical, and in the Byzantine period, much Asia Minor was what I would call 'European'. The byzantine empire was made up of many different cultures, but what I am trying to say is that there have been many different influential civs based in and around eastern Europe.

However, I agree, we should get back on topic. Ideally, I'd like to see Poland included, but the other civs you mentioned - the Khmer, Hittites and Ethiopia, I'd like to see in the game before them. As for Polynesia...I wouldn't like to see them included in BtS.

 

[Pascal Nouma]

Hungary and Poland are two of biggest nations in Eastern Europe one of them should be added if civ4 makers got bored of middle asian civilization.

Ottomans weren't a Eastern Europan civ our most culture belongs to asia and middle east.

 

[Barton]

I have a solution. Screw eastern europe, no more balkan civs, no polish civ, just put in Austria so we can have the Byzantine, Roman, Ottoman, Austrian, Russian, Greek ... need I more domination of this area.

Oh, and Totti is a horrible footballer! Harry Kewell would have screw you Italians to the wall if he was not indured!