[Extension] [POLL] More Wonders for VP

[adan_eslavo]

Mt. Everest is, uh...

This is well-known issue. This was model made by some user years ago, and I just brought it to this mod. @Hinin offered to correct him, if he will be able to do that, but no guarantee, because 3D modelling is not an easiest thing. I tried to do something, but I suppose my computer is too old to support the 3D modelling software in its latest release.

I'm not sure, but you can check one thing if you don't like it and want to disable particular Natural Wonders:

1. Find NaturalWondersLocations.xml file:

Spoiler File location :

2. Change value in Occurence line to -1 or 0. The higher Ocurrence value, the more probable is that NW will be placed on map. Disabling some wonders may also break spawning balance of other NWonders, but I cannot help in that matter, cause I balanced Occurences based on all NWs in modmod.

Spoiler Occurence :

This should stop NW from spawning on your maps. I'm not 100% sure, but you can test it out and let me know if it works. I could post some note about it in FAQ then.

Unless you volunteer to correct the model

 

[ridjack]

It's already spawned in my ongoing game, so I'm just dealing with it for the moment. I'll keep this in mind for the next one, though!

 

[m0nk3yst1ck]

Latest one contins Kamikaze lua rework

How exactly have you reworked it so far? I can't tell from reading the code.

 

[ridjack]

Natural wonders that give promotions to newly created units are not explaining what type of unit.

For example, both Sri Pada and Mt. Kailash say they give a promotion to newly created units, but they do not say "civilian" or "missionary."

 

[adan_eslavo]

How exactly have you reworked it so far? I can't tell from reading the code.

It was updated at the beginning of the turn. So if you attacked enemy unit and your hp fell below 20, you still had Kamikaze inactive until you clicked next turn. Now it also updates after each unit attack, so it updates in the same turn. This means, that if you have double attack on your unit, first can be with Kamikaze inactive, and second with active, depending on your hp.

OnTurn mechanic is the easiest to implement, but serves most of the time as a temporary solution. Now this promo gets it's full usefullness.

 

[ridjack]

Why can't I build the Colossus?

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[ProCatGamer]

Why can't I build the Colossus?

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

You need to work the iron resource first with a worker!

 

[ridjack]

You need to work the iron resource first with a worker!

I had previously built the city on top of the iron, and still couldn't build it.

It did pop up later, so it worked out. @adan_eslavo Maybe adding the word "improved" into the requirements would help? I was mighty confused.

 

[m0nk3yst1ck]

I think you should update the help texts for world wonders that give extra world congress delegates because they seem to do so for every 8 city-states in the game, but the wonder descriptions added by MW don't mention this (unlike Palace of Westminster in base VP which does). This might be the nature of ExtraLeagueVotes, so it applies to Rock of Gibraltar as well. This confused me for a bit because I was testing on huge with 24 city-states and thought they were giving three times the extra world congress delegates than they should've been. I tested DoFToVotes too just in case and the wonder descriptions all look good. I wasn't able to test DPToVotes, but the descriptions for Orszaghaz and Palace of Culture and Science seem to contradict each other because both have "+1 votes DPToVotes" but one says it gives 1 delegate per two defensive pacts and the other says it gives 1 per single defensive pact. No idea which one is correct

In VP 8-19, I found that the issue of RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod working differently is indeed fixed as Gazebo said. There are still redundant bonuses appearing in the unit panel (ranged bonus appearing for melee units and melee bonus appearing for ranged units) but final combat strength, which is what matters most, is correct for both melee and ranged now. On the two Github issue pages, I saw that Recursive said he plans to fix unit panel display problems, including this one, in the future.

The +10% worker construction rate from Autobahn is quite unnoticeable (1 turn off of a 10 turn improvement), so perhaps you could bump it up to 25% and compensate with a nerf somewhere else? I would say the same about the +20% bonus of Trans-Siberian Railway and Ahu Tongariki, with the added reason that I've only ever seen worker speed modifiers of +25% or +50% in base VP, so I guess such changes would be "neater" as well. The King Solomon's Mines promotion feels good.

The Trans-Siberian Railway promotion gives -1 movement instead of +1 movement on tundra and snow. I tried setting ExtraMove to 1 instead of -1 but there was no difference. Other issues I found: Peterhof requires iron but its help text doesn't say so, and Roman Forum requires 3 policies but the help text says you need "-1".

The new requirements for Polar Expedition seem to function well as does the newly reworked Kamikaze promotion (tried it with Air Logistics and was able to do one attack with Kamikaze inactive and another with it active on the same turn).

I noticed that I'm able to build Red Fort and other non-coastal wonders in inland lake cities now. Did you fix the isNoCoast problem for good?

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think you should update the help texts for world wonders that give extra world congress delegates because they seem to do so for every 8 city-states in the game, but the wonder descriptions added by MW don't mention this (unlike Palace of Westminster in base VP which does). This might be the nature of ExtraLeagueVotes, so it applies to Rock of Gibraltar as well. This confused me for a bit because I was testing on huge with 24 city-states and thought they were giving three times the extra world congress delegates than they should've been. I tested DoFToVotes too just in case and the wonder descriptions all look good. I wasn't able to test DPToVotes, but the descriptions for Orszaghaz and Palace of Culture and Science seem to contradict each other because both have "+1 votes DPToVotes" but one says it gives 1 delegate per two defensive pacts and the other says it gives 1 per single defensive pact. No idea which one is correct

Lots of question to answer. Let's start.

• ExtraLeagueVotes column should give only the number of votes mentioned in db. If they give more, then there's bug probbaly in VP (or VP has wrong description). I just copied the original description used somewhere else;
• I tested Orszaghaz and it was adding 1 League Vote per 2 DP (or DoF), so it was correct description afair. Palace of Culture and Science is out of my competence (it is National Wonder) and should be tested and corrected if necessary;
• Palace of Westminster uses totally different method in db, or at least it used to depend on CS number; I can't tell you now if it was changed or still uses different column;

Test this please, and post issues on github VP if verified. I have no time for that in couple of days. I'm just gathering stuff for later times. IF VP is correct, then let me know to correct the descriptions.

In VP 8-19, I found that the issue of RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod working differently is indeed fixed as Gazebo said. There are still redundant bonuses appearing in the unit panel (ranged bonus appearing for melee units and melee bonus appearing for ranged units) but final combat strength, which is what matters most, is correct for both melee and ranged now. On the two Github issue pages, I saw that Recursive said he plans to fix unit panel display problems, including this one, in the future.

Yeah, I read and posted those issues. I hope they fix them.

The +10% worker construction rate from Autobahn is quite unnoticeable (1 turn off of a 10 turn improvement), so perhaps you could bump it up to 25% and compensate with a nerf somewhere else? I would say the same about the +20% bonus of Trans-Siberian Railway and Ahu Tongariki, with the added reason that I've only ever seen worker speed modifiers of +25% or +50% in base VP, so I guess such changes would be "neater" as well. The King Solomon's Mines promotion feels good.

I will think of it. I didn't count the "real" benefit of this values.

The Trans-Siberian Railway promotion gives -1 movement instead of +1 movement on tundra and snow. I tried setting ExtraMove to 1 instead of -1 but there was no difference. Other issues I found: Peterhof requires iron but its help text doesn't say so, and Roman Forum requires 3 policies but the help text says you need "-1".

• Trans-Sib should make moving easier. +1 makes moving harder (it is an ExtraMove needed to pass the tile), and that's why I set -1, and it was probably confirmed as working, so I didn't touch this anymore.
• Roman Forum should have 4 policies requirement, but it is the only WW in VP that has that value lowered by 1 (in this case to 3). Earlier there was no mentioning about it, but players demanded to have the value explained and that's why I wrote (-1 policy needed). Maybe word "less" will be better. I will correct that.

The new requirements for Polar Expedition seem to function well as does the newly reworked Kamikaze promotion (tried it with Air Logistics and was able to do one attack with Kamikaze inactive and another with it active on the same turn).

Good to hear that new stuff works well.

I noticed that I'm able to build Red Fort and other non-coastal wonders in inland lake cities now. Did you fix the isNoCoast problem for good?

I just reverted the old lua code I saved commented in case of some problems. SQL part is commented now totally, because it is broken and no one seems to care about it (I got an aswer it works as intended, so it is useless for me in that case).

 

[m0nk3yst1ck]

Lots of question to answer. Let's start.

• ExtraLeagueVotes column should give only the number of votes mentioned in db. If they give more, then there's bug probbaly in VP (or VP has wrong description). I just copied the original description used somewhere else;
• I tested Orszaghaz and it was adding 1 League Vote per 2 DP (or DoF), so it was correct description afair. Palace of Culture and Science is out of my competence (it is National Wonder) and should be tested and corrected if necessary;
• Palace of Westminster uses totally different method in db, or at least it used to depend on CS number; I can't tell you now if it was changed or still uses different column;

Test this please, and post issues on github VP if verified. I have no time for that in couple of days. I'm just gathering stuff for later times. IF VP is correct, then let me know to correct the descriptions.

For ExtraLeagueVotes, I tested Palace of Westminster, UN, Consulate, Mount Rushmore, and Rock of Gibraltar on standard and huge maps and again the votes given are per 8 city-states in the game. Base VP correctly mentions this for Palace of Westminster but not for UN or Consulate (I can submit an issue on the VP Github for this), and MW doesn't mention this for any wonder (including Rock of Gibraltar).
For DoFToVotes, votes are given per 2 declarations of friendship, so both base VP and MW have correct descriptions for all wonders in this regard.
For DPToVotes, I found that both Orszaghaz and Palace of Culture and Science give 1 delegate per single defensive pact. This means that for Orszaghaz the description is wrong and for Palace of Culture and Science it is correct.
In summary: Based on my findings (all on VP 8-19), MW needs to update the descriptions for all wonders that use ExtraLeagueVotes to mention that the delegates are given per 8 city-states in the game, and for Orszaghaz the description needs to be changed to +1 league vote per one defensive pact.

Minor issue: Currently, the delegates from Rock of Gibraltar appear as "from World Wonders" on the world congress screen. Is it possible to fix this by changing it to "from Natural Wonders" or something?

• Trans-Sib should make moving easier. +1 makes moving harder (it is an ExtraMove needed to pass the tile), and that's why I set -1, and it was probably confirmed as working, so I didn't touch this anymore.

Yeah, I just tested it again and it does make you 1 movement slower even when ExtraMove is set to -1 like it is by default.

I noticed in IGE that every city in the game (including city-states) gets the Gate of the Sun dummy building automatically once they build Walls. Is this a bug?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Looking through your list of Natural Wonders, and I noticed you don't have Mount Paektu/Heaven Lake. I'm working on a custom NK civ, and I'd thought it be very unique to have it spawn in range of capital city.

I know you've done great work with this mod over time, so I thought I'd ask to see if/how it could be done. I know there are lots of other mountain NW in the game, so I was thinking maybe it's easiest to just re-skin one of them? I wouldn't need it to be perfect.

*This image could also maybe be used

Spoiler :

 

[adan_eslavo]

For ExtraLeagueVotes, I tested Palace of Westminster, UN, Consulate, Mount Rushmore, and Rock of Gibraltar on standard and huge maps and again the votes given are per 8 city-states in the game. Base VP correctly mentions this for Palace of Westminster but not for UN or Consulate (I can submit an issue on the VP Github for this), and MW doesn't mention this for any wonder (including Rock of Gibraltar).
For DoFToVotes, votes are given per 2 declarations of friendship, so both base VP and MW have correct descriptions for all wonders in this regard.
For DPToVotes, I found that both Orszaghaz and Palace of Culture and Science give 1 delegate per single defensive pact. This means that for Orszaghaz the description is wrong and for Palace of Culture and Science it is correct.
In summary: Based on my findings (all on VP 8-19), MW needs to update the descriptions for all wonders that use ExtraLeagueVotes to mention that the delegates are given per 8 city-states in the game, and for Orszaghaz the description needs to be changed to +1 league vote per one defensive pact.

I think that first thing that should be done, before I will rework all description regarding +X League Votes, is to post issue on github like you said, and make sure this is not a bug. If they say, that their descriptions are wrong, then I will change mine as well.

I will correct Orszaghaz. Maybe I was blind while checking this last time, so thanks for the verifying this issue.

Minor issue: Currently, the delegates from Rock of Gibraltar appear as "from World Wonders" on the world congress screen. Is it possible to fix this by changing it to "from Natural Wonders" or something?

No without changing the World Congress screen, which I don't plan to do. You can post the issue on github. Maybe they will change "from World Wonders" phrase, to more universal: "from Wonders" in next beta.

Yeah, I just tested it again and it does make you 1 movement slower even when ExtraMove is set to -1 like it is by default.

Can you post this on github, too? They will ignore it, but it's worth checking.

I noticed in IGE that every city in the game (including city-states) gets the Gate of the Sun dummy building automatically once they build Walls. Is this a bug?

No? I will verify the lua code for Gate of the Sun, then. Maybe I did some crucial error there.

EDIT: Looks like I did an error and every city after building Walls, will receive the dummy. I will correct that.

Looking through your list of Natural Wonders, and I noticed you don't have Mount Paektu/Heaven Lake. I'm working on a custom NK civ, and I'd thought it be very unique to have it spawn in range of capital city.

I know you've done great work with this mod over time, so I thought I'd ask to see if/how it could be done. I know there are lots of other mountain NW in the game, so I was thinking maybe it's easiest to just re-skin one of them? I wouldn't need it to be perfect.

*This image could also maybe be used

Spoiler :

View attachment 606542

I cannot help you with remaking the existing Natural Wonders from few reasons:

• once I wanted to check how Great Barrier Reef is made, to copy the method to Bermuda Triangle and Bioluminescent Bay. Unfortunately I couldn't find any of the original Natural Wonders in Civ5 installation files. If you find them, let me know please;
• I am not able to modify my current broken models for added Natural Wonders, not mentioning of adding even new ones. :/ Those like Dallol or Retba use no models, but only some shading image used for small terrain height modification. Effect is weak, but better than nothing.

Talk to @Hinin. He once offered me help with this, if he finds some time. He recently edited some unit models afair, so maybe he will help you.

The only thing I can help you for now is how to implement the NW model and how to spawn it. Some things you can find in current github build of this mod. Good luck.

Of course if you manage to make new model for your NW, maybe you will find time and help with mine?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Hmm, that's odd. Maybe Gazebo would have a better chance knowing where those files are located?

Of course if you manage to make new model for your NW, maybe you will find time and help with mine?

I have no knowledge of these things, but I will ask around to see what I can find anything. If I do somehow make any progress, of course, you will be the first to know

The only thing I can help you for now is how to implement the NW model and how to spawn it.

If I can get any more confirmed substance behind my concept, then I may take you up on your offer sometime. I'll take a peek at the github in the meantime. Thank you.

 

[m0nk3yst1ck]

I think that first thing that should be done, before I will rework all description regarding +X League Votes, is to post issue on github like you said, and make sure this is not a bug. If they say, that their descriptions are wrong, then I will change mine as well.

I doubt it's a bug because base VP's Palace of Westminster description correctly states that the extra league votes are per 8 city-states, and because without such a condition ExtraLeagueVotes wouldn't scale with the varying # of delegates needed for Diplomatic Victory based on # of civs and city-states in-game (i.e. those wonders would be weaker in larger games). DoFToVotes and DPToVotes already scale with game size due to them depending on the # of civs by nature. I'll know for sure after submitting a bug report about UN and Consulate. I'll submit a report for the two other issues too.

• Roman Forum should have 4 policies requirement, but it is the only WW in VP that has that value lowered by 1 (in this case to 3). Earlier there was no mentioning about it, but players demanded to have the value explained and that's why I wrote (-1 policy needed). Maybe word "less" will be better. I will correct that.

Oh ok. It just looked confusing to me as I wasn't aware of the history or the fact that every other wonder at this part of the tech tree requires 4 policies

 

[ridjack]

So after playing with this mod for quite awhile, I've made the decision to permanently remove the world wonders from my setup, and I wanted to give some feedback as to why. This is not intended to deride the mod; these are just my personal feelings. A lot of work has been put into it and it shows; the wonders are reasonably well-balanced and fun to get. With adjustments, a lot of them could fit into base VP and feel right at home. It just also has issues for me.

In no particular order

• It's too much. Like, way, way, way too much. It's an overwhelming amount of wonders; every AI and the player are all running around with 10+ wonders, and it makes them feel a lot less special. And even with the wonderful Wonder Planner mod, it's insane amount to keep track of, especially considering...
• The requirements. The first time I played with this mod, I loved all the requirements on the wonders. It did, and still does, a great job of keeping a single player from hoarding all the wonders. As I've played more and more, though, they've just become very frustrating. A lot of the wonders have requirements that are way too specific, and when is a wonder is unavailable, there is no communication as to why that is. In a recent game I specifically settled a city with a mountain and a lake so that I could build the Gate of the Sun, and once the technology was researched... nothing. It hadn't been built, but it wasn't in my list to build, and I still have no idea why. This happens a lot.
• The requirements again, except a more specific complaint. All the wonders that have a requirement that depends on other players... I say this with all due respect, but IMHO those need to be nuked from orbit. Building the Budhas, being a turn or two away and then having a bribed war completely remove your ability to keep building it sucks a lot. If you wanted to keep these types of requirements in the future, I would suggest at least making it so that you only need to meet them to start building it.
• I don't personally think there should be wonders available from the beginning of the game. On anything above King, these are basically free buffs to the AI. A player has zero chance of getting them, and they'd never be worth it even if you did.

Again, these are just my personal opinion that I wanted to share. This mod is still high quality and fun; it's just not for me in its current state.

 

[adan_eslavo]

@ridjack Thank you for sharing your opinion. Now I would like to refere to all of your points with my concerns, plans, ideas and solutions. Maybe some of them will fit you well:

• It's too much. Like, way, way, way too much. It's an overwhelming amount of wonders; every AI and the player are all running around with 10+ wonders, and it makes them feel a lot less special. And even with the wonderful Wonder Planner mod, it's insane amount to keep track of, especially considering...

There are many ways to restrict the overall number of World Wonders per game:

• you can disable manually particular WW you don't like or you don't want to see (==> op);
• you can turn on the MaxEraRestriction (==> op). This option forbids building WWs from 2 eras behind, so you cannot build (or finish!) WW from Ancient Era in Medieval Era. This option will cut the number of WWs built significantly. I will make turning it On and Off easier in v0.13 and it will be enabled by default from this version;

• The requirements. The first time I played with this mod, I loved all the requirements on the wonders. It did, and still does, a great job of keeping a single player from hoarding all the wonders. As I've played more and more, though, they've just become very frustrating. A lot of the wonders have requirements that are way too specific, and when is a wonder is unavailable, there is no communication as to why that is. In a recent game I specifically settled a city with a mountain and a lake so that I could build the Gate of the Sun, and once the technology was researched... nothing. It hadn't been built, but it wasn't in my list to build, and I still have no idea why. This happens a lot.

In v0.13 I will try to add option to disable/enable ALL requirements for WWs. We will see how it performs when it is released.
The Gate of the Sun bug should not happen, but without any feedback in that matter, I cannot help you nor resolve the issue if it exists.

• The requirements again, except a more specific complaint. All the wonders that have a requirement that depends on other players... I say this with all due respect, but IMHO those need to be nuked from orbit. Building the Budhas, being a turn or two away and then having a bribed war completely remove your ability to keep building it sucks a lot. If you wanted to keep these types of requirements in the future, I would suggest at least making it so that you only need to meet them to start building it.

The last suggestion cannot be added, because I use ready lua functionality from VP. Sorry.
I will look at those requirements, but I cannot promise anything

• I don't personally think there should be wonders available from the beginning of the game. On anything above King, these are basically free buffs to the AI. A player has zero chance of getting them, and they'd never be worth it even if you did.

I'm opposed. I like them. I will not add more, probably. I don't think AI have better opportunity to build them after recent balance changes in VP?

 

[ridjack]

First of all, thank you for taking the time to respond in detail. Let me clarify that I was not asking for nor expecting any changes to be made as a result of my feedback; I've honestly decided that the world wonders in base VP are in a good, solid place as they are and don't feel the need to add any more.

There are many ways to restrict the overall number of World Wonders per game

I was aware of these, actually. Disabling individual wonders while trying to maintain some balance is something I don't feel confident in my ability to do well.

I actually thought the MaxEraRestriction WAS on by default, so maybe that would have made a difference.

In v0.13 I will try to add option to disable/enable ALL requirements for WWs. We will see how it performs when it is released.
The Gate of the Sun bug should not happen, but without any feedback in that matter, I cannot help you nor resolve the issue if it exists.

To be clear, I think the requirements themselves are actually a good thing. I like how they make wonder-building a bit more egalitarian; almost everyone will have SOME ability to build a wonder or two, and nobody will be able to hoard ALL of them.

For my part, the problem is that they are often too specific and restrictive. I think limiting wonders to one requirement, maybe two for a small handful would go a long way. The most important thing about this, in my opinion, is what someone else pointed out in a different post: it really punishes tall play. A wide player can just go settle another city if there's a specific wonder they want; a tall player just has to write it off as a loss.

The other main problem is the lack of communication when a wonder is unavailable. I know that base VP makes it so a wonder simply doesn't appear if it can't be built, and that's completely fine when so few VP wonders have specific requirements. With every single wonder having some kind of requirement, I personally would vastly prefer if they showed up in my list even if they can't be built, with messages telling me what I'm missing. I realize that's difficult or maybe even impossible to implement, but that's my thought on it.

(With regards to Gate of the Sun: Nobody had built it yet, I had a city with a bunch of nearby mountains, one mountain tile in its borders and one lake tile in its borders. As I recall, that's all the listed requirements, but no Gate in my list.)

I don't think AI have better opportunity to build them after recent balance changes in VP?

Is this true? I hadn't played for a year or so until recently, so I'm not 100% up to date on all the changes.

And again, thank you for taking the time to respond. I hope my feedback has been useful and not too mean.

 

[m0nk3yst1ck]

No? I will verify the lua code for Gate of the Sun, then. Maybe I did some crucial error there.

EDIT: Looks like I did an error and every city after building Walls, will receive the dummy. I will correct that.

Is there any way I can play without this issue before you release v0.13? Disabling Gate of the Sun in 1.WorldWonders\SQL\MainRulesForWorldWonders.sql doesn't remove the problematic dummy.

edit: Commenting out lines 539-541 in 1.WorldWonders\SQL\WorldWondersDefinitions.sql seems to work out as it makes the dummy have no yields.

 

[gwennog]

It's too much. Like, way, way, way too much. It's an overwhelming amount of wonders; every AI and the player are all running around with 10+ wonders, and it makes them feel a lot less special. And even with the wonderful Wonder Planner mod, it's insane amount to keep track of, especially considering...

I play with more wonders from the start. For me, the philosophy is not the same as in a classic VP game. A wonder is not necessarily a goal to be achieved in order to be in synergy with the game that we are playing. Seek out the technology that will give access to the wonder that will optimize your game choices. In this mod, wonders rather become opportunities of place and time, which we seize or leave because they are not interesting when we can build them. In this way, it also brings a great freshness in the sense that they can finally orient, if we build them, our game in a completely different direction.
If we follow this philosophy the requirements are absolutely necessary, of which I think, that of the era limitation and those sensitive to the game of other players as well.

I don't personally think there should be wonders available from the beginning of the game. On anything above King, these are basically free buffs to the AI. A player has zero chance of getting them, and they'd never be worth it even if you did.

In emperor game, I have no particular problem accessing one of the early game wonders and what a pleasure to be able to perform Kuk when you have your feet in the backwaters or Goebekli Tepe for a city in the middle of the mountains.

It is true that the mod benefits from having a little in-depth knowledge of what we can build, where and how, but even without that, there are enough diversity of requirements to be able to build a jewel of the creativity of human.

I think, on the other hand, that we should think about the hill placement of certain wonders of the early ages, with a well-placed city, we can chain a large number of wonders without competitions with the AI which will rarely have this possibility, given the type of placement that it adopts.
You will have understood it, I am only giving an opinion which can without problem not be shared but More Wonders for VP is my favorite mod, big thank you Adan for your work .