[Extension] [POLL] More Wonders for VP

[cherepin]

@adan_eslavo
Hi. Will you condider a possibilty to add new wonder to your. It's Las Medulas created by Nefarian222. I have rewritten it a little according to your mode and Wieliczka logic.

+3 GOLD. Places 2 new Gold resources inside City range if possible. +1 Production from Mines worked by this City. +1 GREAT_ENGINEER points. Nearby Gold resource : +2 Gold );

Terrain: Plains nearby; Feature: River Improvement: 2 Mines nearby.

Thank you for response.

 

[cherepin]

Forgot to add:

Tech Required - Engineering. Policy required - 5.

 

[gwennog]

If I understand the comments made by kenneth1221 and Solutionit on the restrictions, I do not really agree. I like a conception of the game where the wonder is often an opportunity and not an absolute quest.
I find and for me this is the most important, after a dozen games, whatever the size of the empire or its technological advance, there are still wonders available for others (I want as proof that, arrived in the industrial era where restrictions do not yet exist in the mod, the most advanced civilization begins to do all the wonders without leaving a single one available)
For many wonders, after a few games, you can always think of the placement of its cities to access it.
On the other hand, where I join them, it can be on restrictions too strong for the policies wonders and on the descriptions which are a little cryptic and which leave only guess what the wonders do, without being sure.
But I think there are probably still balances to be found to make the mod pleasant for all.
In any case, low hat, Adan, it's a wonderful job.

 

[Eboq]

Just about to start a new game. Don't mean to rush you, but will the the 0.6 version come up today?
Any way I really, and I mean REALLY, appreciate your work

 

[adan_eslavo]

v0.6 official release is now available. All text are refined (remember you can always revert those changes and use default ones if you like them more; new ones are still in experimental phase):

• single icon means local bonus f.e. Mountain (+1/[ICON_FLOWER]) where [ICON_FLOWER] is local TERRAIN tile;
• double icon means global bonus f.e. +10% or Lake (+1/[ICON_MUSHROOM][ICON_MUSHROOM]) where [ICON_MUSHROOM][ICON_MUSHROOM] is global FEATURE tile;
• if you have number before icon f.e. Flood Plains (+1/2 [ICON_MUSHROOM]) that means the bonus is aplied every 2 local FEATURES;
• Quarry (+1/[ICON_WORKER]) means IMPROVEMENT tile if local and all IMPROVEMENTS if global (+1/[ICON_WORKER][ICON_WORKER]);

To adress some of the descriptions issues:

• those descriptions have some lacks, but I still work on them. Like you mentioned THEMING or FREE things are those wholes I was taking into account, but because lack of time delayed them.
• some flavour text named WHY DA HELL YOU PUT THAT HERE (hello Sistine Chapel) were just fillers when whole description was really short (only one or two BIG abilities that could be fit in one sentence. I am not kind of writer, so they may look silly.

"Filled with wonderful frescos (+2: , ) beautiful Sistine Chapel is literally an artistic bomb for your empire (+10%). Make sure to built it, if you aim for a cultural victory." - you have info about 2 new great works with their theming focus, and huge GLOBAL boost to culture. There's nothing more info I could put, so your yelling here are out of place:

• first versions did not have any number and I apologize that, but now every wonder have such. I took into atention most important of all variety of wonder abilities, because I have also in mind that all texts must fit into WonderPopup screen. Some of the original text with their formatting were impossible to fit those frames.
• compare them all, analyse and if you have questions ask. I added changes according to earlier suggestions and complaints, but doing that takes time, my free time. Small steps.
• I always said that solution for this would be better UI/EUI with all info in one place instead of mix: part on the top, then part on the bottom help text and part doubled in both, because someone likes that. Perfect help text should be pure flavour with numeric info on the top of the tooltip. Period. But Gazebo said no one wants to even touch EUI because of some conflict with its creator, so it stays in it's "unfinished" state until probably end of the world.
  
• Flavoured text better look on wonder popup screen and if I manage to master them, then they will be great addition. I think they are now quite nice, depends on your attitude.

"And my world collapsed..."


Another stuff:

• I aplied almost all of @SolutionIt complaints from that post; #215;
  
• like I said at the beginning of this mod, main goal was to restrict overpowered civs from building every possible wonder especially, what was also common, in one city, so grabing that city would mean, you had 5 wonders and now you have 15. One, and probably the only way to spread them successfully was to add such restrictions. I noticed, that adding one type or sometimes even two didn't solve the problem, because f.e. almost, I guess, 70% of the cities have plains. There was also problem with desert cities mentioned at some point which was fixed. If I delete some restrictions, we will have what we have in base game: massive wonder spam in capital. I often, as a weaker player, had problem to build a wonder in later era, because if other player had some tech lead (+4 tech) he built all wonders before I could even imagine, so its lead raised even more. I try to find golden point. I lowered the holy and policy wonder requirements, deleted all luxury requirements and I will surely look at ideology reqs too when the time comes.
• why old wonders should be favoured and new ones restricted? They are all wonders, right?
• I uderstand difference between tall and wide civs, but how to combine that without deleteing all reqs? I have no idea currently.

If I give simple restriction: imagine LAKE, do you like it? One will say yes it is simple, plain, there are multiple cities where I can build it. But second will say: whoa! I built 5 cities and neither of them had lake. How can I build such wonder? FOREST? 90% cities have forests around, so it can be deleted totally. COAST? Player can say, that he has only inland cities and why to restrict him to build Qalhat f.e.

I'm just teasing with you, but want show my point of view, that it is not so easy to make this balanced and make all happy. You can always edit restriction file and post some screens with your suggested changes. We are half way done, probably more difficult half way.

Finally, I think deleteing all restrictions totally is not the solution imo. Optional thing? Probably possible, but require to focus on that and delay next eras. Like with descriptions. I thought they would go faster, but making them good consumed hours of checking and reading and correcting.

I am tired and I need a break. During that I will think of industrial era wonders, because I have plan only for few of them for now. When I'm ready, I will think of next step.

Any important bugs I will try to fix immediately so post them.

BONUS:

(Also, does anyone else find it awkward that the Jewish religious wonder gives gold on faith purchase?)

I knew, just I knew someone will connect this to Antisemitism... Jews were always talented bankers, merchants, traders in all polish (and not only) cities. Coincidence? What do you suggest instead?

 

[adan_eslavo]

After buiding Ahu Tongariki Turn Egg appears as luxury but not in the monopolies list and doesn't give monopoly bonus

I think what he's trying to say that monopolies don't work with resources granted by buildings and are not on the map.

Which is how it is intended to be in VP.

City state resources do appear on the map, they are directly on the city tile.

It will not appear there because it's not on the map. I modified its bonuses to be tied to wonder instead, so it works like it has monopoly (+10%) and all its yields are also moved to building. The only thing left on resource itself is Happiness and flavour

Added new info in op:

 

[adan_eslavo]

Reworked OP:

 

[adan_eslavo]

@adan_eslavo
Hi. Will you condider a possibilty to add new wonder to your. It's Las Medulas created by Nefarian222. I have rewritten it a little according to your mode and Wieliczka logic.

+3 GOLD. Places 2 new Gold resources inside City range if possible. +1 Production from Mines worked by this City. +1 GREAT_ENGINEER points. Nearby Gold resource : +2 Gold );

Terrain: Plains nearby; Feature: River Improvement: 2 Mines nearby.

Thank you for response.

Thanks for your suggestions. I added them to reserve for now, because I want to focus fully on industrial era instead of expanding past ones. Of course later I will think of expanding especially classical era.

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

We just try the new version in a multiplayer game and we found some descriptions very confusing, Some exemple:

First we thought ot was +1 food per 2 cow, sheep, fish, wheet but it doesn't seem to be the case, is there any reason why there is 2 times the icones?

Second

When i first saw the mushroom i assume it was a way to describe tiles, but when i saw the flower and the mushroom i wasn't sur about anything

 

[tibu]

@Cat-du-fromage , according to adan's post on the previous page, the icons repetition means that it's a global effect, so +1 food per cow,sheep,fish,wheat, on empire.

For the difference between the mushroom and the flower, I would guess it's a difference between Terrain type (flower) and Features (Mushroom). I'm not sure if it's required to differenciate the two in the description though, as I guess you need to work the tile anyway to get the yield?

 

[cherepin]

Thanks for your suggestions. I added them to reserve for now, because I want to focus fully on industrial era instead of expanding past ones. Of course later I will think of expanding especially classical era.

Thank you for your response. I also offer you to add to reserve wonders' list Golconda fort with Kollur diamond mines. I have already written it, it only lacks pictures for Golconda fort and famous Koh-i-Noor

Golconda fort turns your city into impregnable fort (+10 STRENGTH, + 50 HP), + 10 gold + 2 new Gems deposits, +2 golden age points for gems. It also stores artifact Koh-i-Noor - one of the most famoust diamonds in the world.
Terrain: Jungle nearby; Feature: River, Hill Improvement: 2 Mines nearby.
Tech Required - Banking. Policy required - 10.

 

[Cat-du-fromage]

@Cat-du-fromage , according to adan's post on the previous page, the icons repetition means that it's a global effect, so +1 food per cow,sheep,fish,wheat, on empire.

For the difference between the mushroom and the flower, I would guess it's a difference between Terrain type (flower) and Features (Mushroom). I'm not sure if it's required to differenciate the two in the description though, as I guess you need to work the tile anyway to get the yield?

Thanks for the precision, but since it is already written "to all cities", it seems more confusing to add the double icon, or maybe it would be better to write in color something like (Bonus to all Cities) instead. In that way there is no confusion

 

[tibu]

Thanks for the precision, but since it is already written "to all cities", it seems more confusing to add the double icon, or maybe it would be better to write in color something like (Bonus to all Cities) instead. In that way there is no confusion

I agree that in this case it is redundant with the text coming before, but if you take for example the boost to Villages from the same Wonder, even if the boost is also global (iiuc), the text is not as precise.

I still have to play a game with the last version, but if you find the descriptions a bit confusing, you can always go back to VP style :

• to return to VP style help texts you must set "0" instead of "1" for "MW-HELP" tag in "MoreWonderTexts.sql" file

But yeah it's difficult to add flavour to the help text without adding confusion.

 

[adan_eslavo]

We just try the new version in a multiplayer game and we found some descriptions very confusing, Some exemple:

First we thought ot was +1 food per 2 cow, sheep, fish, wheet but it doesn't seem to be the case, is there any reason why there is 2 times the icones?

Second

When i first saw the mushroom i assume it was a way to describe tiles, but when i saw the flower and the mushroom i wasn't sur about anything

@Cat-du-fromage , according to adan's post on the previous page, the icons repetition means that it's a global effect, so +1 food per cow,sheep,fish,wheat, on empire.

For the difference between the mushroom and the flower, I would guess it's a difference between Terrain type (flower) and Features (Mushroom). I'm not sure if it's required to differenciate the two in the description though, as I guess you need to work the tile anyway to get the yield?

Thanks for the precision, but since it is already written "to all cities", it seems more confusing to add the double icon, or maybe it would be better to write in color something like (Bonus to all Cities) instead. In that way there is no confusion

I agree that in this case it is redundant with the text coming before, but if you take for example the boost to Villages from the same Wonder, even if the boost is also global (iiuc), the text is not as precise.

I still have to play a game with the last version, but if you find the descriptions a bit confusing, you can always go back to VP style :

• to return to VP style help texts you must set "0" instead of "1" for "MW-HELP" tag in "MoreWonderTexts.sql" file

But yeah it's difficult to add flavour to the help text without adding confusion.

• Yes you are right. I differentaited terrains and features not only ith color (dark blue vs dark green) but also with icon.
• Double icon was needed because not everwhere I wrote "in the city" or "in the empire", so in such descriptions single or double icon is inevitavble, and the icon must be there. Repetition is used even in EUI, but very rare. I just "borrowed" it. Repetition is also plain, simple and takes less space than standard text. I think you need to get used to it I tried to make it as intuitive as possible. Of course there's still field for improvement.

 

[gwennog]

Dear Adan,

As you work on the next era, I saw that you have planned two wonders of transport, they are linked to rail transport.
What do you think of a wonder of transport linked to aviation : Concorde.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde

I think that even if the project was stopped, the technological prowess of the time is well worth the name of Wonder.

Of course not for the industrial era but Information era, perhaps Telecommunications.

 

[kenneth1221]

I had a wall of text written, but on further thought it seemed disrespectful to your time. I'll try to keep this succinct without being a jerk. I'm sorry if I came off as attacking you; that was not my intention, and I appreciate your effort. Also, thank you for considering my concerns. Finally, if you're genuinely happy with how the mod's going, you don't have to take my suggestions

With regards to your explanation:

• single icon means local bonus f.e. Mountain (+1/[ICON_FLOWER]) where [ICON_FLOWER] is local TERRAIN tile;
• ...etc...

To be blunt, this is buried on page 17 of a forum post that the vast majority of mod players won't read. Even if you put it on the front page, I'm not sure most people would read it, especially if this mod is in Magnus's modpack (not sure about this or if he's still using Infixo's). My point is that eventually, this information needs to be in game for the flavor text to fully replace the original text.
In-game, it's not obvious what the symbols mean, as @Cat-du-fromage's playthrough shows. (Did you use Magnus's modpack or make a custom?) I appreciate that you've taken steps to remedy this by making it clear that you can change a config option to use VP text. But until the flavor text is no longer experimental, maybe it would be better if VP-style descriptions were the default since it's part of the first impression people get of the mod.

• some flavour text named WHY DA HELL YOU PUT THAT HERE (hello Sistine Chapel) were just fillers when whole description was really short (only one or two BIG abilities that could be fit in one sentence. I am not kind of writer, so they may look silly.

"Filled with wonderful frescos (+2: , ) beautiful Sistine Chapel is literally an artistic bomb for your empire (+10%). Make sure to built it, if you aim for a cultural victory." - you have info about 2 new great works with their theming focus, and huge GLOBAL boost to culture. There's nothing more info I could put, so your yelling here are out of place:

But that's my point. There's really not a lot that anyone can say for a lot of these wonders beyond just the numerical values. I think most players are smart enough to realize that +10% global culture is powerful for a cultural victory. Flavor text doesn't add a lot here and it's adding to your workload.

• why old wonders should be favoured and new ones restricted? They are all wonders, right?

My thinking was that Stonehenge, Pyramids, SoZ, and so on have had literal years of back-and-forth forum threads with balance discussion. None of that balance discussion accounts for more terrain restrictions. This only really matters for Ancient and Classical wonders I think. I think we can both agree that this mod is in a fairly early stage and that there hasn't been much opportunity for balance discussion so far.

Put another way, old wonders are more build defining. +50 instant faith from Stonehenge is a pantheon and can snowball you to a religion. Pyramids is a settler without losing population. +50 instant food form Ggantija is... 2 citizens? Powerful, but not enough data exists.

• I uderstand difference between tall and wide civs, but how to combine that without deleteing all reqs? I have no idea currently.

If I give simple restriction: imagine LAKE, do you like it? One will say yes it is simple, plain, there are multiple cities where I can build it. But second will say: whoa! I built 5 cities and neither of them had lake. How can I build such wonder? FOREST? 90% cities have forests around, so it can be deleted totally. COAST? Player can say, that he has only inland cities and why to restrict him to build Qalhat f.e.

I'm just teasing with you, but want show my point of view, that it is not so easy to make this balanced and make all happy. You can always edit restriction file and post some screens with your suggested changes. We are half way done, probably more difficult half way.

Finally, I think deleteing all restrictions totally is not the solution imo. Optional thing? Probably possible, but require to focus on that and delay next eras. Like with descriptions. I thought they would go faster, but making them good consumed hours of checking and reading and correcting.

I mostly agree that this sort of balancing is complicated. One possible way to balance wide vs tall is to make more wonders empire-choice/grouped wonders, like Policy wonders, Ideology wonders, Religious wonders, and (possibly?) Transport wonders. That way, no matter how wide an empire is, it can only grab one of a wonder in a group.

I might do an edit, then.

BONUS:
I knew, just I knew someone will connect this to Antisemitism... Jews were always talented bankers, merchants, traders in all polish (and not only) cities. Coincidence? What do you suggest instead?

Lol I'm not saying anyone here's antisemitic. Judaism and money is just a touchier connection to draw than any other religion and money on account of all the ethnic cleansing. Maybe Production and Science? That's what base VP uses for its synagogues.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I had a wall of text written, but on further thought it seemed disrespectful to your time. I'll try to keep this succinct without being a jerk. I'm sorry if I came off as attacking you; that was not my intention, and I appreciate your effort. Also, thank you for considering my concerns. Finally, if you're genuinely happy with how the mod's going, you don't have to take my suggestions

With regards to your explanation:

To be blunt, this is buried on page 17 of a forum post that the vast majority of mod players won't read. Even if you put it on the front page, I'm not sure most people would read it, especially if this mod is in Magnus's modpack (not sure about this or if he's still using Infixo's). My point is that eventually, this information needs to be in game for the flavor text to fully replace the original text.
In-game, it's not obvious what the symbols mean, as @Cat-du-fromage's playthrough shows. (Did you use Magnus's modpack or make a custom?) I appreciate that you've taken steps to remedy this by making it clear that you can change a config option to use VP text. But until the flavor text is no longer experimental, maybe it would be better if VP-style descriptions were the default since it's part of the first impression people get of the mod.

That's what I will do in the end probably, but now I would like to make people more common with new changes. And it is easier for me to control them when they are default for now. New things are always kind of shock for users, but with time they should get used to it. I hope.

But that's my point. There's really not a lot that anyone can say for a lot of these wonders beyond just the numerical values. I think most players are smart enough to realize that +10% global culture is powerful for a cultural victory. Flavor text doesn't add a lot here and it's adding to your workload.

If you are native english speaker, and this feel odd for you, feel free to suggest some counterchanges, maybe more info-valuable. But still, I would like to keep such style: flavour + the most important numerical data. I tested f.e. many colours to differentiate things and current state seems quite nice to me. You can check it during the long gameplay, anbd that's your advantage.

My thinking was that Stonehenge, Pyramids, SoZ, and so on have had literal years of back-and-forth forum threads with balance discussion. None of that balance discussion accounts for more terrain restrictions. This only really matters for Ancient and Classical wonders I think. I think we can both agree that this mod is in a fairly early stage and that there hasn't been much opportunity for balance discussion so far.

Put another way, old wonders are more build defining. +50 instant faith from Stonehenge is a pantheon and can snowball you to a religion. Pyramids is a settler without losing population. +50 instant food form Ggantija is... 2 citizens? Powerful, but not enough data exists.

That's why I want you guys to participate more in balancing topic. If you feel Ggantija is weak, why didn't you say that earlier, even after I boosted it up? remember it does not require any tech, so if someone meets reqs then it can be powerful early food/faith on! I don't want to have old wonders powerful and new ones nah! weak... No no, all wonders should be as balanced as possible and as powerful as possible with kept some kind of uniqueness. You guys focus on balance, and I will do the new stuff when possbile

I mostly agree that this sort of balancing is complicated. One possible way to balance wide vs tall is to make more wonders empire-choice/grouped wonders, like Policy wonders, Ideology wonders, Religious wonders, and (possibly?) Transport wonders. That way, no matter how wide an empire is, it can only grab one of a wonder in a group.

Balancing wonders, and balancing reqs I would treat as two separate topics. Yes, I plan do transport exclusive group (with 2 rail, 2 road and maybe aviative one), but don't want to make all wonders depending on policies. That's too far. 3 per policy seems quite a lot to me comparing to starting 2 in base mod.

Lol I'm not saying anyone here's antisemitic. Judaism and money is just a touchier connection to draw than any other religion and money on account of all the ethnic cleansing. Maybe Production and Science? That's what base VP uses for its synagogues.

Heh, you point me out. Sometimes I'm to honest with politics and people can take this as nationalism or antisemitism, but I would say that is... stereotype? I looked also from gameplay perspective. There were not many wonders in that period; and are not common combination (Cathedral, Mont Saint Michel, Machu Picchu, ???); I used unique sql ability not used before (later Meenakshi uses / combo in it). + was used intensively in Damascus Forge, Kuk and Halicarnassuss so it would be somewhat repeatable. But if you post some nice complete project for it's rework, I will surely consider it.


If you point out some things guys, you ALL, please engage more and try to do clean suggestion of how it can be solved, changed, too. It is easier to understand your point of view such way and do quick changes in mod.

I will try to add some quick example of how new help text work in main post soon to inform new people about its mechanics.

 

[AndreyK]

I think that yields on Meenakshi Temple for faith purchase too high. I built it in my capital, in Renaissance I'm buying missionaires for 330 faith and I get 495 food for each, since I generate 600 faith per turn, it almost 1000 extra food in capital.
My capital has WLKD and produce about 400 food per turn, so more then triplng that amount too much, so I think lowering amount of food by 1/3 or even by half would be OK

 

[adan_eslavo]

I think that yields on Meenakshi Temple for faith purchase too high. I built it in my capital, in Renaissance I'm buying missionaires for 330 faith and I get 495 food for each, since I generate 600 faith per turn, it almost 1000 extra food in capital.
My capital has WLKD and produce about 400 food per turn, so more then triplng that amount too much, so I think lowering amount of food by 1/3 or even by half would be OK

Ouch! Is there some multiplier? I gave it 100... What about El Ghriba and from ? Same issue?

 

[AndreyK]

Didn't built it yet