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(poll) What civs would you like to see in a hypothetical third expansion?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Krajzen, Feb 6, 2019.

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What 8 civs would you like in a third expansion?

  1. Babylon

    88 vote(s)
    55.7%
  2. Portugal

    100 vote(s)
    63.3%
  3. Maya

    118 vote(s)
    74.7%
  4. Byzantium

    95 vote(s)
    60.1%
  5. Ethiopia

    84 vote(s)
    53.2%
  6. Italy

    46 vote(s)
    29.1%
  7. Vietnam

    66 vote(s)
    41.8%
  8. Morocco/Moors

    45 vote(s)
    28.5%
  9. Assyria

    38 vote(s)
    24.1%
  10. Austria

    27 vote(s)
    17.1%
  11. Burma

    14 vote(s)
    8.9%
  12. Chola/Tamil

    12 vote(s)
    7.6%
  13. Timurids

    8 vote(s)
    5.1%
  14. Armenia

    26 vote(s)
    16.5%
  15. Afghanistan

    9 vote(s)
    5.7%
  16. Hittites

    31 vote(s)
    19.6%
  17. Benin

    13 vote(s)
    8.2%
  18. Ashanti

    17 vote(s)
    10.8%
  19. Swahilli

    23 vote(s)
    14.6%
  20. Zimbabwe

    7 vote(s)
    4.4%
  21. Bulgaria

    16 vote(s)
    10.1%
  22. Bohemia

    8 vote(s)
    5.1%
  23. Ireland

    24 vote(s)
    15.2%
  24. Romania

    20 vote(s)
    12.7%
  25. Goths

    23 vote(s)
    14.6%
  26. Gran Colombia

    36 vote(s)
    22.8%
  27. Mughals

    15 vote(s)
    9.5%
  28. Olmec, Toltec, Zapotec etc

    10 vote(s)
    6.3%
  29. Navajo

    46 vote(s)
    29.1%
  30. Native Americans - other than Navajo

    52 vote(s)
    32.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    Or Haudenosaunee! I do grant you that Mohawk would probably be a more recognizable name though I suppose either works as long as they are the Iroquois in everything but name.

    Along with their art, this is the thing that got me really interested in the PNW and the Tlingit in particular! Its got me curious if there are any other civs outside of the PNW that were also settled hunter-gathers that would also be noteworthy enough for Civ.

    I would love to see that, the more unique city graphics we have the better. If we ever do get lucky enough to have an official Hopi civ, I'd hope that the tile for their cities could appear to be on mesas for more defense.
     
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  2. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    The only other 'dense' settled hunter-gatherers that I've heard of are the tribes of medium-altitude New Guinea that Jared Diamond has described in several of his books. Apparently they live in the midst of a jungle/rainforest that is incredibly rich in year-round food plants, so cultivation was and has not been required. The primary cultural mode I remember from Diamond's work is that they are intensely territorial: areas with useful plants are carefully marked off as belonging to one group/village/tribe or another, and trespassers are slaughtered, so that visiting anthropologists had to be escorted everywhere by natives who knew what places and boundaries to avoid! I don't know enough else about them to say whether they are suitable candidates for the basis of a Civilization faction, though.
     
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  3. 679x

    679x Chieftain

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    Compelling arguments!

    What if the totem poles replaced the monument, but were split into different types of totem poles, each with their own unique benefits, and you could choose which one - but only one - to build in each city?

    Admittedly, I don't know much about totem poles, so that may not make sense in terms of historical accuracy, but I've always liked the concept of Government Plaza -building-style unique buildings, where you have multiple to choose from with their own benefits but you can only pick one.
     
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  4. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    My knowledge of PNG is cursory, but my general impression (from a case study I read on the Dani specifically in college) was that their culture was nowhere near as sophisticated as that of the PNW cultures.

    I think a case could be made for a unique Monument or a Unique Improvement. Or the Crest Pole could simply be a unique Monument graphic (like Korea's) and the ḵwaan could be the Unique Improvement like I suggested above. I think a PNW civ would have a lot of options for how the dev's design it.
     
  5. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    My impression as well. Without the stimulus of long-distance coastal trade/raiding and the 'technology' required, they seem to have had a much lower political and technological level, and of course any cultural development was side-tracked by the Cargo Cult phenomena from WWII, which has warped whatever casual knowledge the general population might have about them. They'd be a hard sell as a Civ inclusion.

    There were 6 different kinds of "Totem" or Crest Poles, but not all require modeling for the game:

    Frontal Pole - in front of a family dwelling to show who lived there - an elaborate house sign.
    Interior Pole - a highly decorated/carved roof support
    Mortuary Pole - a pole depicting an individual who just died, with a 'grave box' included for the skeletal remains
    Memorial Pole - a more permanent monument to somebody important, usually put up a year of so after they died, and the Mortuary Pole was no longer enough for a remembrance.
    Welcome Pole - or 'boundary pole', put up to mark the limits of a tribe/clan's territory. Frequently on bluffs overlooking good fishing ground, at stream crossings, etc. It was also more specific in that all th examples come from the Nuu-chah-nulth ('Nootka') and Kuukwake-wakw ('Kuituitl') tribes only.
    Shame/Ridicule Pole - (my favorite!) put up to embarrass somebody, either local or foreign. The Stephen Colbert or Herblock of poles.

    The Interior, Frontal, and Mortuary Poles are either individual or temporary, so I don't think need to be considered as a Civ component. The Memorial Pole comes closest to the 'Monument' in form, placement and Meaning, the Welcome Pole would really be an Improvement, and the Shame Pole would be a Unique 'Special'.

    A possible mechanism to include all of them might be:
    Crest Pole. A Monument replacement fo the Tlingit/Haida/Chinook/Salish/Snohomish/Pulyallup/Steilacoom/Nootka/Kuituikl Civ. Gives +2 Culture. You may pick one other Bonus:
    Welcome Pole - when complete, Pole allows you to add one contiguous tile to the city radius at no cost in Culture or Gold.
    Shame Pole - when complete, may pick one type of Governor and any Governor of that type from another Civ has no effect on this city.
    Memorial Pole - provides +1 Loyalty to this city.
    At any time you may 'tear down' (eliminate) the Crest Pole and build a new one in the City with a different Bonus.

    My preference for a Unique Unit is leans towards the Head Canoe: a distinctive Galley-Replacement with coastal raiding capability which also, when placed on a sea Trade Route, would extend the range of that trade route, or when placed over a Coastal Resource, would increase the yield from that Resource, neatly covering its multi-use function.

    Also, and appropriate based on RL History, upon getting Cartography, the Head Canoe could be cheaply Upgraded to a Caravel-equivalent: Head Canoe with sails - graphic change only from regular Caravel (the PNW natives did this so fast after seeing the first European sailing vessels that many later commentators thought they had independently invented the sailing rig!)

    On the other hand, the wooden-armored warrior is also an absolutely distinctive graphic for a Unit (Warrior replacement?) with, say, a Bonus against Ranged fire (from Ranged units, not Siege!)

    We could have the Kwaan as a Unique Neighborhood-replacing District, perhaps available with a Medieval or Renaissance Era Civic (although none leap out as appropriate at the moment), providing extra Housing based on number of Woods or Rainforest tiles adjacent plus Loyalty and Culture as 'bonuses'.
     
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  6. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    I think the monument was practically made to be replaced by a totem pole (or a stele). The kwaan, if we are to accept it as a term for a building, feels like it would end up being conceptually similar to the mekewap. Whereas I don't think any American civ would have any reasonant structures that are remotely similar to a monument.

    Every time I see the term "canoe" in the context of a non-Caribbean civ, my heart sinks a little. :p
     
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  7. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Who was Averroes again? Wasn't he Ibn Rushd, the North African/or Moorish Arabic polymath? How is he qualified to lead Morocco in a Civ game, given he didn't wield political power unlike the historical sultans? I like the idea of Yusuf bin Tashfin or Ismail ibn Sharif leading Morocco in Civ6, if they return. Or an alternative Berber/or Tuareg Civ lead by Kahina/Dihya or Tin Hinan. :shifty:
     
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  8. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    My own idea for the Crest Pole aka Noow is that it would be a UI that would add a great work of art slot to a district it was adjacent to. Additionally, great works of art in that district would have that district's bonuses such as +2 gold in the commercial hub, +2 diplomacy points in the palace, etc. However, I do think that idea of a monument replacement that you also have to pick which type you want is also a very promising idea!

    A naval replacement would be cool (maybe even as a second UU) though I'd still prefer a wooden-armored rifleman replacement with embarking combat and ranged defense bonuses. Either way it would be pretty unique.

    Thanks for sharing this. Like you guys have said, they might be as sophisticated as the PNW or even civ worthy but it is an interesting fact to know and read up on.

    I'd like to mention that I've also slightly adjusted my votes from what I originally voted for. I'd still like to see Portugal and Babylonia but with what has been added in Gathering Storm and the lack of spaces we have I decided to switch to Assyria and Morocco. I've still kept Ethiopia and Maya as the returning choices and Burma, Benin, Ireland, and other Native American (Iroquois, Tlingit, etc.) as the other options. I wonder how many others have changed their votes and opinions since GS.

    Abu Yaqub Yusuf is my top choice to lead Morocco but the other Yusuf looks like a strong choice too. Sayyida al Hurra would be interesting as well but since I've come to favor Grace O'Malley to lead Ireland I didn't want to go overboard with pirate queen rulers (though on the other hand maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing). I wouldn't mind another Berber civ either.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  9. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    The kwaan, as I understand it, translates as "long house" or "clan house", and I've seen kwaan used to refer to the clans themselves. That, I think, puts it in the category of an in-town/settlement Building rather than an 'Improvement' out in the countryside, but the game hasn't been that particular in the past, so potentially I suspect they could use the term to provide whatever effect they are looking to get.

    I hear you. I used to do some canoeing, and the idea of taking one out to sea struck me as Suicidal. But, the PNW had a Secret Weapon, the Red Cedar tree, which is very durable and weather-resistant, and grows normally to about 60 meters or more high and up to 4 meters in diameter. That means a plain dug out could be as big as a Trireme (37 meters long) or the new-in-game Bireme (24 meters long by 3 meters beam). The Haida had 'canoes' that averaged up to 20 meters long, and actually had a wider beam than either the Trireme or Bireme. They 'spread' the dugout log by steaming the wood, which also pulls up the ends so that the resulting vessel has a naturally raised bow and stern, and the bow is then carved with higher sides - the 'Head' of the Head Canoe. In short, a very large 'canoe' involving some pretty sophisticated woodworking techniques.
    Also, I was stunned to discover that they had iron adzes for working the wood before the Europeans arrived: meteoric iron was shaped into a hand tool with a sharp edge, very similar to earlier stone variants, I'd bet, and versions have been discovered in archeological levels dated to 800 years ago. There's also archeological evidence that they were working the red cedar with more primitive (stone, presumably) tools up to 2000 years before Start of Game in 4000 BCE, so it is quite possible that some form of Large Dug-out Canoe was in use that far back, but so far that's speculation. It does also mean, though, that carving an entire Crest Pole was not quite the arduous task that I thought it would be before 'modern' steel hand tools were available.

    The Crest Poles Were works of art, but really weren't associated as a display for any other work of art. I'd suggest, though, that a Crest Pole of any kind would provide, potentially, Tourism from the Industrial Era on, because they have certainly been objects of fascination to non-natives ever since they first saw them.

    Wooden armor was used fairly extensively in inter-tribal warfare, but rifles made it obsolete (even steel armor like the Cuirassiers wore was no protection against rifle fire, as the French discovered to their cost at Waterloo - after the battle no one could find a Cuirass without a hole drilled right through it by either a Baker rifle wielded by one of the 95th Rifles or a short-range musket!), so by the time they get Musketmen and later, nobody would be wearing the elaborate wooden panoply except for ceremonies. On the other hand, it could be used to give them a Unique Warrior, and early Unique Units seem to be considered a lot more useful in the game than later ones.

    All just thoughts - GOK what Firaxis would actually do with such a Civ.
     
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  10. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    This is why I wasn't necessarily thinking the Iroquois would return since we have other mainstays people would rather have and it would be a lot easier to give us a whole new NA tribe as one of the new Civs.
     
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  11. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Agreed.

    I'd be more concerned it would compete/overlap with the Mbanga.

    Correct, the ḵwaan was both the clan house and the clan--cf. the European usage of "house" to mean "dynasty" or "noble family."

    Actually their primary source of iron tools came from iron spikes from wrecked Chinese and Japanese ships, the wreckage of which ocean currents carried to the Alaskan coast. These currents would also carry pieces of bamboo which were prized by the locals as hair ornaments for young women.

    I'd buy Crest Poles holding relics--that was done occasionally.
     
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  12. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    As far as I know, that was only the Mortuary Poles, holding a "grave box" containing the bones/remains of a Great Man (which certainly would qualify as a 'relic') But those were only erected right after the Great Man died, and were replaced by a Memorial Pole without the remains, usually after about a year. That was the permanent Shrine/Memorial, but it did not contain a 'relic' any more. That makes the 'relic holder' a strictly temporary Pole - which, of course, doesn't mean the concept can't be modified for game purposes.

    I think it's a bit much, but one possibility would be to have the Crest Pole representing the Welcome Pole or Frontal Pole as a Monument replacement, and the Memorial/Mortuary Pole as a Shrine replacement, with a 'slot' for a Relic. Taking this further, every time you 'expend' a Great Person, it generates a Relic for the Pole-as-Shrine.
    That would give any PNW Civ a lot of potential Culture/Religion directly related to the Crest Pole graphics, and ensure that everywhere you went in the Civ there would be a Pole of some sort. Add the kwaan as a distinctive graphic of plank-built long house Neighborhood District and the Head Canoe with its bright heraldry and dug-out construction, and, if nothing else, the Civ would be graphically distinctive!
     
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  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I'd welcome any better mechanic for Relic generation. I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Relic in the game. Maybe it's time to play as Khmer again...
     
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  14. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    That's quite a bit larger than what I was expecting, especially when the word 'canoe' brings a smaller size to mind! Some naval bonuses seem like a safe bet.

    I was intending to go with the Poles indicating the artistic wealth of the districts they were next to but its definitely not a hill I would die on. I'm also liking your monument replacement idea the more that I think about it.

    Granted the wooden armor wasn't exactly bullet proof, but from what I've heard its quite a bit stronger than most would give it credit for. From the sources I've read, well made wooden armor could stop shots from the typical rifles/muskets of that time unless they were within 20 feet or so (though the armor could get fairly wrecked in the process). They were used to great effect during the Battle of Sitka until the Russians started using their cannons. I'll also admit that I'm a bit of a sucker for unique armor so I could be biased with wanting to see wooden armor in the game.

    Agreed, at least 1 other civ that could capitalize on relic generation would be more than welcome.
     
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  15. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    I've seen relics in a lot of games, but then I aggressively go after every Tribal Village I can. The generation of Relics appears to be completely random - some games they pop up like easter eggs on a pool table, other games 10 civilizations all together have 1 -2 Relics among all of them. Given the way established religions crank out 'relics' I find that odd, which is why, given ready-made mechanic like the relationship between Mortuary Pole/Memorial Pole and Great People, I think it would be crazy not to do something with it . . .

    Excellent! I hadn't seen the accounts of the strength of the wooden armor, but upon reflection, it shouldn't surprise me: the PNW had excellent woodworking skills, and knew how to 'treat' wood with fire to stretch, bend or harden it. That would make it arguable to make the wooden-armored Unit a Swordsman or even a Musketman replacement - although I still think the latter is pushing it. In both Europe and Asia, men with gunpowder firearms quickly dropped all personal armor because the protection it offered was no longer worth the weight it imposed. Even when the pikemen still wore 'back and breast' steel plate and helmets, the musketmen beside them in pike and shot formations wore at most leather coats and soft caps. Once they had firearms, I suspect the PNW cultures would have quickly done the same.
    A Swordsman replacement has a lot more usefulness than a Warrior replacement, though, and over a longer time span in-game. That also allows the PNW Civ to have extended Uniques: about the time a Galley-Replacement Head Canoe starts becoming obsolescent in the late Classical Era, a Swordsman-Replacement comes along to give the Civ a Unique Unit good to the middle Medieval Era . . .
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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  16. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I like this idea. It would also allow the Warrior to wear rope armor as a graphical replacement.
     
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  17. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

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    I can agree with the swordsman replacement being the UU. At the very least the Tlingit and Haida had shortswords/very large daggers so it would be quite fitting and, like you guys said, the swordsmen would be around longer. As long as we get wooden armor I'll be happy. Graphical replacements for the warriors and perhaps some musketmen would be welcome too. That would basically narrow the options down to Tlingit and Haida right (though I'm still having a hard time finding good Haida leaders)?

    This is making it harder to decide what 1 native NA civ to get if we only get 1 in expansion 3!
     
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  18. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    Though their preferred weapon was the ornate war club.




    For hunting they favored the spear, as bows were generally considered cowardly. In either circumstance, knives were regarded more as tools than weapons.

    In regards to visuals, though, I think the highlight of the civ would be the leader in his Chilkat blanket. :D

     
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  19. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Because of the complicated nature of representing subjugated American peoples (with a widely variegated cultural tapestry and limited imperialistic unification) in a specifically American game, it feels like American tribes are held to a completely different standard than the rest of the world. By that, I mean it would feel "wrong," historically and ethically, to place any single tribe on a pedestal as a series regular, because it would be to the exclusion of equally important cultures on the continent, as well as "selling out" the tribe to a paradigm controlled by Western/colonial interests. So I think American tribes are deliberately discouraged by politics from getting too familiar with the Civ franchise.

    The compromise that VI seems to be moving toward is to treat them as "featured" civs, one-and-dones (potentially being featured again in the future), with a tacit understanding that the tribe in question will not need to worry about reconciling their relationship with the franchise in the future. This way players are exposed to diversity, tribes are given public awareness, while minimizing exploitation. While the complications are present for any non-American(/-Canadian) culture, there are simply more eggshells involved where the developers and primary consumerbase are part of the dominant, oppressive culture sharing a continent with these peoples.

    Thus, I do not believe the Iroquois are likely to return in VI, in the same way that I am dubious the Cree will return in VII. The Iroquois were...fine...under the earlier imperialistic paradigm, but as Firaxis and players have been displaying increased interest in representing all of the New World and not just the tribes who butted heads with colonialists, the Iroquois really aren't anything exceptional to merit being a "must-have" for every installment. The Blackfoot were also a strong confederation. The Cherokee had nationhood for a couple centuries. Hell, the Sioux were the first Native American civ in the series, not the Iroquois. If you step back from colonialist perspective, much of the exceptionalism often attributed to the Iroquois kind of falls apart, because there were many self-organizing tribal relationships all over North America. many of which also had fascinating technological or cultural developments.

    Now, if we could have a dozen tribes (hell yeah), obviously I would think the Iroquois are a "necessary" inclusion. Maybe even half a dozen tribes. But that's not happening, and since all the discussion has generally trended away from the Iroquois and toward regions like the PNW and SW, I just don't think this is the Iroquois' time. And I am fine with that in the broader context because, again, we as socially conscious people of the world don't actually want the Iroquois or the Sioux always appearing as "the Amerindian staple civ." At least as long as we're only getting two-ish tribes per installment.
     
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  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    The "problem" with the North American Native Civs specifically is that there is such a mind-bogglingly huge variety among them, and the more we know about them, the more the Differences stand out. So, to pick 1 - 2 or even 5 - 6 Native 'Civs' means you are leaving out at least that many more that could be included, and each of which would bring something new to the table. On the one hand, it gives the designers huge leeway, on the other hand, they will always come up short unless they make a weird sort of "Pre-Colonial" Civ game in which all 12 - 24 - 36 Civilizations are New World. - I'm not suggesting they do that, but, yeah, I'd buy it . . .

    Parenthetically, the differences are not just in Culture, Politics/Diplomacy, Religion, etc, but also in technology, which the game has never really addressed. Among the 'Unique' technologies peculiar to the Americas:
    1. Serious genetic Modification of plants: the maize and potato plants were developed artificially into premier food sources from, basically, weeds.
    2. Cultivation of Forests and Rain forests. A large percentage of the trees in the Amazon Basin, for instance, are planted - the distribution is neither natural nor random. The forests of northeastern America were carefully cleared of underbrush by burning each year or two to facilitate travel and 'plot'-style agriculture. The Natives of southern/central coastal California cultivated oak trees because they had learned how to leach the acorns and then grind them to make flour. Natives of the midwest carefully burned out and cleared 'meadows' linked so that Bison could graze from their homeonthe Great Plains all the way to central Ohio!
    3. Alternative Transportation. As a friend living in eastern Canada (and an avid canoeist) once pointed out, you could travel by canoe from near the Atlantic coast all the way across Canada to the Rocky Mountains, portaging occasionally but basically paddling most of the way - and the native canoes (rabaska) could carry up to three tons of cargo/supplies each and yet be carried in portages by 4 - 6 men when empty, so this was a serious transportation system, not just a recreational pastime.

    You add to those General technologies all the specific cultural/military characteristics of dozens of tribes, tribal groups, confederacies, and the problem of who to include becomes, to say the least, daunting.
     

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