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(poll) What civs would you like to see in a hypothetical third expansion?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Krajzen, Feb 6, 2019.

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What 8 civs would you like in a third expansion?

  1. Babylon

    25 vote(s)
    48.1%
  2. Portugal

    35 vote(s)
    67.3%
  3. Maya

    42 vote(s)
    80.8%
  4. Byzantium

    29 vote(s)
    55.8%
  5. Ethiopia

    29 vote(s)
    55.8%
  6. Italy

    20 vote(s)
    38.5%
  7. Vietnam

    24 vote(s)
    46.2%
  8. Morocco/Moors

    13 vote(s)
    25.0%
  9. Assyria

    9 vote(s)
    17.3%
  10. Austria

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  11. Burma

    8 vote(s)
    15.4%
  12. Chola/Tamil

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  13. Timurids

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  14. Armenia

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  15. Afghanistan

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  16. Hittites

    9 vote(s)
    17.3%
  17. Benin

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  18. Ashanti

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  19. Swahilli

    10 vote(s)
    19.2%
  20. Zimbabwe

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  21. Bulgaria

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  22. Bohemia

    2 vote(s)
    3.8%
  23. Ireland

    5 vote(s)
    9.6%
  24. Romania

    4 vote(s)
    7.7%
  25. Goths

    7 vote(s)
    13.5%
  26. Gran Colombia

    13 vote(s)
    25.0%
  27. Mughals

    6 vote(s)
    11.5%
  28. Olmec, Toltec, Zapotec etc

    3 vote(s)
    5.8%
  29. Navajo

    17 vote(s)
    32.7%
  30. Native Americans - other than Navajo

    19 vote(s)
    36.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Prior to this system of dual leaders, practically none of the players were treating these as the same civ. They wanted Phoenicia and/or Carthage, not a blob. Same with Maurya. The entire civ V steam mods support this way of thinking, so I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong if you think I'm the only person drawing this distinction. I was a proponent of a Carthage/Phoenicia blob, and was repeatedly shot down by the majority who would never accept something so heinous. Until it actually happened.

    Also, if you think whatever you have been presenting to me is reason or evidence, then I make no apologies likening your arguments to ideological tyranny. Christianity improves society because you say so. Mexican heritage does not involve the Aztecs because you say so. You may or may not have informed ideas. I can't tell, because your rhetoric is shoddy and impressionistic and indignant, and after spending excessive time dissecting it there isn't any room left for egalitarian discourse.

    I think that is an equally disappointing solution to me because I don't think there is enough to make Byzantium distinct and interesting. Greek fire isn't enough potential imo when so much design space has been eaten up in that region. So either way one of us is doomed to disappointment haha.
     
  2. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Although it's probably true that there is some opinion and personal desire pressed in with my facts, first, there is also quite a lot of evidence and backing in there too, which you have just dismissed off hand to make your point and say EVERYTHING I say is automatically flawed opinion and pressing my desire. Second, you've been FAR more guilty, immensely so, of what you've just complained about than me. But you haven't conceded ANY acknowledgement of that AT ALL.
     
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  3. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    If you think "Greek Fire" is the only thing Byzantium has to offer, then your knowledge on the subject appears to be painfully limited. Cataphracts, Basilica's, The Patriarchate, Theodosian Walls, the Macedonian Renaissance, the Komnenoid Restoration, the Bulgaro-Byzantine Wars, there's plenty to choose from, an all of the above apply to Byzantium and not to Rome.

    Increased flavor differences between Athens/Sparta, India/Maurya and Angevin Empire/Great Britain/Valois France would be greatly appreciated though. It really goes beyond one ability + a different colours scheme + a separate capital. Different symbols and city lists (Eleanor settling industrial era cities such as Bradford and Stoke-upon-Trent triggers my inner aspie) could go a long way, as would a unique component (Give Perikles a unique Pentekonter instead of the Hoplite, give Gandhi Sepoys or Gurkha's instead of the Varu, give Eleanor a Troubadour Unique Unit (replacing the Rock Band but available at medieval faires) over the Sea Dog/Garde Impériale). The current Alt leader system is a step in the right direction imo, but it's only halfway where it should be.
     
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  4. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    * Cataphracts - not uniquely Byzantine and were imo a poor choice of unique in V. Also, we already have plenty of horseys for Poland, Russia, and Hungary just next door.
    * Basilica - so, like a sad shadow of the lavra which would better fit the Byzantines?
    * Theodosian walls - do we really need another wall unique?

    This is my point. Yes, Byzantines have things to build uniques from but none of them are particularly good options. There are too many civs that have cannibalized Byzantium's already limited design space. If we got basilica and cataphract, it would basically be a tanky Russia clone.

    The core of this problem is that Eastern Europe, despite being ethnically fractured, is really just a homogenous continuum of slight variations on the same history. Christianity and cavalry. There are only so many mechanical ideas you can pull out of the same taffy, and to my mind (and it seems the devs' mind) Byzantium is not as high priority as representing Poland and Russia (and the Ottomans) first. And now Georgia and Hungary, apparently. And while I completely see your point that a Byzantine alt leader wouldn't do justice to later Byzantium, I personally don't think later Byzantium has much new to offer to VI mechanically or aesthetically at this point. It might have had potential, were it added sooner, but it will never be a priority in any civ game because it's not a wholly distinct polity and culture like Russia, or Poland, or the Ottomans. It's still, to some extent, just "Rome, again," and that is why it will always be a filler civ that just barely makes it in after all the other ideas are explored. This rule so far holds true for VI.

    So, again, someone is going to be dissatisfied with how the devs approach this no matter what happens. Because there are those like you who consider it a "staple" and want it given the full glory treatment. And there are those like me who consider it "filler" and don't see any space that needs filling. Neither is precisely wrong, but the devs are only going to take one side on this issue, and at this point we don't know.

    I do think that if they go with Theodora, who is the clear frontrunner, she should just be an alt leader for Rome. She is a terrible leader for the proper "Byzantium" proposed by everyone and I think most would agree. And the Rome uniques, while not fitting "Byzantium," would adequately represent Rome under her.

    I agree that leaders could stand to be differentiated a bit better. Like give each leader their own unique. Several already have them and there are some instances where they practically have one (like Jaya and the Baray). But I would still rather have alternative civ ideas represented this way rather than as full civs.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 1:18 PM
  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    I mean, how about agreeing on a basilica and a "Greek fire" spitting dromon. :mischief:
    I'd take a hippodrome unique infrastructure as well.
     
  6. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    A third temple unique? Or an improvement that leaves us asking "why isn't this a lavra?" I just don't find the basilica a very satisfying UI at this point, although it does seem the most likely contender if the devs are deadset on snagging that sweet Byzantine coin.

    What it comes down to is that we are effectively arguing for different, equally weak ideas for UI, since the UU should almost certainly be a dromon. So you ask why not Basilica? I ask why not aqueducts and forts, save the development resources? :p

    It's a coin flip, really. But all these debates do is convince me that Byzantines are difficult to implement on the same level as other civs and I'd rather the devs just ... maybe not, for once, see how that shakes out.
     
  7. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    It could be a unique worship building and that would make it unique though I would rather Ethiopia get that with its monolithic churches.
    Another unique govt. plaza could work too since early basilicas were used for governmental purposes and cluld have minor faith bonuses like unlocking government and policy changes with faith.

    Or there is the hippodrome I also suggested that could give culture and make horses behave like luxury resources in a city that has them.
     
  8. Xandinho

    Xandinho Warlord

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    Glad to see that the Mayans are so in demand (much in demand even compared to other highly in demand civs too), I hope that Firaxis employees are watching this poll and that this serves as information for them :p.
     
  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    Out of my memory I can propose six excellent and full of personality leaders and four very good unique units of an empire lasting almost 1000 years, so I don't exactly what are your standards of easy to implement. Are Mapuche, Brazil, Canada or Maori easier to implement? :p

    Btw those people are Justinian, Theododa, Manuel, Zoe Porphyrogerita, Basil the Bulgar Spayer, Basil the Macedonian and unique units are dromon, cataphract, pronoiars and varangian guard. And I consider myself ignorant, and not a byzantophile.

    Byzantium also is big enough historical entity to work with whatever bonuses you want. Mercenaries, fortifications, defense, offense, diplomacy, building tall, going wide, navy, naval trade, architecture, religion, economy, great people, culture - everything works with Byzantines. Science wasn't their specialty and they still earned it more than Korea, so they could get science as well.

    Byzantium is more important to world history than half or civs currently present in game. It's impossible to describe history of Rome, Greeks, Goths, Huns, Bulgaria, Hungary, Armenia, Georgia, Kievan Rus, Russia, Turks, Ottomans, Jerusalem, Venice, Italy, Sassanid Persia, Orthodox Church Crusades or Islamic expansion without mentioning it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019 at 8:43 PM
  10. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    I don't think we will ever get a unique worship building unless it's for an actual religious civ like the Vatican (which would ironically also be the basilica). Given that it is a single permanent choice, adding a unique worship building ultimately limits player options more than it opens them up. And frankly I don't see why Byzantium needs to be painted as that more religious than about a dozen other civs.

    I also think stretching any single structure into a unique government plaza doesn't make much sense. Many of the UBs in VI were central structures to their cities, so I don't see any reason to make it so for Byzantium. I kind of buy Byzantium getting a unique plaza though, I just think it would be odd to make it religious. Although hey look over there it's Rome with monuments and roads that communicate the same idea of strong government!

    Hippodrome is fine but underwhelming. It would beg having a horse unique though, and again has the same issue as cataphracts in that it wasn't uniquely Byzantine.

    Idunno, Byzantines just bore me guys. It's like a weird mix of trite Grecophilia and Christian zealotry, and there's already plenty of both in VI for me.
     
  11. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    The marae isn't uniquely Maori. The Hanseatic League had cities outside of Germany (such as Tallinn, Bruges, Thorn and Scarborough). Ziggurats were built by the Akkadians and Babylonians as well. The Ottomans weren't the only civ to use Barbary Coursairs, etc.

    It's not exclusivity that matters, but association. If I can name a unique component, be it a building, unit, leader or infrastructure, if a casual fan can associate it with the civ in question, it can be used as a unique for that civ. Which one you use depends on which mechanics you want to use for that civ.


    I'll see if I can drop a Byzantine design in that would be interesting and fun later today (can't do it now, I'm on my phone right now)
     
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  12. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    Honestly, man, I don't really care too much about Korea. I always end up trying them out, and even when they have a great design, I still get bored of playing them. I really don't care about Korea in my civ game.
    But they're not there for me. They're there for the people who do want them there.
     
  13. Metecury

    Metecury Chieftain

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    First and foremost Italy, about time they include it and honestly seeing as they came up with very interesting mechanics for gathering storm i'd be thrilled to see what they can come up with.

    Assyria was my choice but I got to admit it was tough between Babylon and the Hittites, were it up to me we would have all three.

    Maya are a must

    Portugal has a history with the franchise and I would not mind to see them

    Mughals because the Indian subcontinent need more love

    The Goths because wee need more civs form the aftermath of Rome's fall

    Bulgaria or Austria

    Vietnam which has been requested for quite a while
     
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  14. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    Okay, here we go. I'll approach this like my Assyria design earlier in this thread: I'll post the Civ UA + UU + UI first and then offer a few options for Leaders that could fit within this Civ. This took a bit longer than I thought it would, because I had no precedent for a Byzantine Civ (like I did for Assyria, which I've designed and redesigned several times in the past)

    I also tried to avoid any lazy "PATRIARCHATE OF CONSTANTOPLE LOLZ" abilities because a) they're style-over-substance b) the actual mechanics aren't particularly Byzantine who are... you know... science & culture oriented, historically c) we already had this in Civ 5 not doing this two games in a row.

    Anyhoo:

    BYZANTIUM

    Civilization Ability: Macedonian Renaissance: Great People belonging to Civilizations Byzantium has made contact with will defect to Byzantium when attacked by any hostile unit. Obtaining a Great Person that way also grants Byzantium a free Technology or Civic for which they have already unlocked the Eureka or Inspiration.
    Spoiler :
    (The Macedonian Renaissance was a period of rediscovering ancient Greek and Roman scientific and cultural principles, brought forth by the influx of foreign scolars from cities such as Antioch and Alexandria (cities that were devestated by the Arabic conquest). Effectively, this ability would also allow Byzantium to capture Great People from other Civs, but I see it more as "Liberating" them from the yoke of lesser Civs :p)

    Unique Unit: Dromon: Unique unit for the Byzantine empire, replaces the Quadririme. +1 Range over the Quadrireme but has -5 ranged strength. Units and cities attacked by the Dromon take residual damage equal to half of the initial damage taken, spread over three turns. This damage stacks up to three times. Dromons ignore fortifications when attacking cities.
    Spoiler :
    (honestly shocked there isn't a unique Quadririme yet, but Greek Fire Dromons are just too good to pass up)

    Unique Infrastructure: Hippodrome: Unique Tile Improvement for the Byzantine Civilization. +1 Amenity and an additional +1 Amenity if the City has Horses in range. +1 Production to all adjacent tiles. +1 Food and +0.5 Housing to adjacent Pasture improvements. +2 Faith if adjacent to a Holy Site. Gains +2 Culture and Tourism if adjacent to any Entertainment District. Must be built next to a Pasture. One Per City. Tiles with a Hippodrome cannot be swapped.
    Spoiler :
    (hardly original at this point but tile improvements > buildings and we already have an Arena replacement and a temple replacement would be SO DULL, so...)


    Leader Corner:

    Leader# 1: Justinian and Theodora:
    Spoiler :
    Yes, the leader is called "Justinian and Theodora", TWO leader models with TWO different voice actors on the same screen, cf: the ideas being bounced around in the Trung Sisters topic. Picture them like sipping wine from an ornate bowl and cackle at the barbarians that are trying to negotiate with them. Sounds like loads of fun, tbh. :)

    Leader Ability: Corpus Iuris Civilis: +1 Diplomatic Favour for each original Capital they control, including their own. The first two foreign Capitals they gain control of grant them access the original founder's Civilization Ability.
    Spoiler :
    (a reference to their ambitions to restore the Roman Empire to it's full glory and almost succeeding at that as well. Absorbing a Civ ability hasn't been done yet and I think this is the best opportunity for it: Byzantium would have some amazing synergy with Nobel Prize, Founding Fathers and Hellenic Fusion, to name a few. ftr: "Three Kingdoms" will apply to any Campus :) )

    Leader Agenda: Nika Riots: Will build many Entertainment Districts and Hippodromes, to maximize Amenities in their cities. Likes Civs that do the same and dismiss those who have unhappy cities.
    Spoiler :
    (Look them up. They weren't pretty. Keep your plebs happy with Bread & Circuses, folks. Agenda Disapproval should mention what happens when people have too much spare time on their hands)


    Leader #2: Alexios I:
    Spoiler :
    The slam dunk choice for a non-Justiniad leader, I think. Arguably the most instrumental Byzantine Emperor. Can be substituted with Manuel I if needed)

    Leader Ability: Pronoia: Unlocks the Varangian Guard unit at the Mercenaries Civic. Completing the Repair Defences City Project instantly repairs all damaged tile improvements, districts and buildings within that city. Gold and Faith costs for buying units is -33% when Byzantium is at war.
    Spoiler :
    (The Pronoia was a system of govenment funding, usually spent on noble estates and monasteries. Those affected would also often be called to arms if Byzantium found themselves a war (which was all the time). Pronoiai were develped at the start of the Komnenoid Dynasty, so it's an appropriate ability to give to Alexiois here. Note that the discount applies to all units, including Religious and Civilian.)

    Leader Unique Unit: Varangian Guard: Unique Melee-class unit when Alexios I is the leader of Byzantium. Unlocks at Mercenaries. 47 Combat Strength. May only be purchased with Gold but requires no maintenance or resources. Varanguan Guards add +1 Byzantine Loyalty pressure to the nearest City. They upgrade into the Infantry.
    Spoiler :
    (Norse mercenaries that were employed by the Komnenoid Emperors as bodguards. Harald Hardrada used to be one of them, actually. The loyalty boost is there largely for mechanic purposes. While the Varangian guard did have some police duties, they were mostly bodyguards. However, with Alexios being a Dom leader foremost, a small loyalty boost is needed. )

    Leader Agenda: Komnenoid Restoration: Never raids tiles and will repair pillaged tiles and districts whenever possible. Hates those who have raided or own pillaged tiles within their borders. Likes leaders without damaged tiles and those which do not raid.
    Spoiler :
    (Imagine seeing your restortation efforts be mitigated by some belligerent petty king. Frustrating. His agenda should be balanced so that he hates raiders immediately, while being in a timer with those that are being raided (if they repair their tiles within, say, 10 turns, no problems). Dialogue should talk about the success or failure of creating a glorious, stable empire)


    Leader #3: Empress Eirene:
    Spoiler :
    aka Irene of Athens She currently exists in the game as a Great Merchant (with a very sanitized biography which doesn't even mention her most famous achievement). She's replaced as a Great Person by Anna Dalassene.

    Leader Ability: Prima inter Pares: Free Relic each time her Civilization enters a Golden Age. Her founded religion always exerts full religious tourism to other Civs, even if they have developed The Enlightenment Civic. Eirene's Districts gain +2 Adjacency bonus if built next to a Holy Site.
    Spoiler :
    (Eirene looooooooooooved her fresco's and religious art, to the point she ended the long period of Iconoclasm her predecessors (including her own late husband) had been enforcing and by doing so she threw her empire into disarray, OOPS. It ultimately did cost her the throne, but thank Dog she did it because Orthodox Cathedrals remain a splendid sight to behold (outside AND inside) and we largely have to thank her for that)

    Leader Agenda: Iconophile: Will try to maximize her Tourism pressure towards any Civilization she's made contact with. Likes Civilizations that don't compete in Tourism, hates those that do.
    Spoiler :
    (Initial idea was to make this agenda about Religious Art and Relics specifically, but this conflicts too much with Kristina's imo. General tourism makes sense given her historical actions, even if it makes her a natural enemy of Poland, Russia, Khmer and Eleanor. Agenda approval dialogue should talk about how people are flocking to her cities to see the newest creations by her artisans)


    There you go, Interesting Mechanics for a Civ that is excellent at every victory type. Let us hope that when they do come, Firaxis are able to come up with something even stronger.
     
  15. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    I agree that India needs more love, but please, not the Mughals. They were NOT Indian, but Afghan-Uzbek with Timurid and Mongol heritage, invaders who got comfortable and built nice minarets - and started the process of selling off South Asia in parcels to the various European East India Companies. Including them would give about as much TRUE love to India as having the British Raj or the Greco-Indian Kingdoms instead.
     
  16. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    Well, I'm sorry but in my opinion no major empire offends other civs merely by existence, and national sentiments shouldn't prevent inclusion of powerful and interesting empires. We shouldn't exclude Mongols because they devastated Central Asia, Baghdad and Kiev; or Ottomans with Istanbul capital because it offends Greek legacy etc.
    Also, weren't Mughals reasonably multicultural and tolerant (maybe not Aurangzeb but Akbar)? At this stage of Indian history it is hard to draw lines between Hindus and Muslims. Personally I'd like to see among several civ iterations multi-leader Hindu India (Mauryas, Guptas, Chola, Maratha), Sikhs, Sri Lanka, Nepal as well as Mughals.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019 at 4:07 PM
  17. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Warlord

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    If we are ever to see an end to the India blob I think we will have to accept that Muslims as well as Hindus will need to be represented. Should be represented.
     
  18. awesome

    awesome Meme Lord

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    I honestly think that, with more modern countries and other specific groups being represented, there's definitely room for that type of thing. Before, it was really just America, Ottomans, and (arguably) Dutch that fell into that type of group (though you can probably mention Holy Roman Empire from 4, but you really shouldn't ever talk about them, ever), but now you also have civs like Canada, Scotland, and even Australia. The game doesn't have to become Nation-State in order for things like Mughals to be represented as separate entities.
     
  19. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Indian Moslems, yes. But, please, not the Mughals, who were not Indians, and, indeed, had the legacy of allowing the European East India Companies to firmly entrenched on their watch. The Delhi Sultanate, or Mysore, or even Jinnah (if we can have Gandhi) would be better choices in that regard.
     
  20. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    And, for that matter perhaps one of the leaders of the Sikh Confederacy, so it's not all Moslems and Hindus.
     

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