[R&F] Poll: which are the last 4 R&F civs?

[Siptah]

Wouldn't Algeria, and maybe Tunisia also make sense for this kind of Civ? Those three countries had Barbary Corsairs/pirates? I remember reading about a brief conflict the American government had with barbary corsairs, taking place during Jefferson's presidency, I believe.

Sure, those two would work as well. And I advocated Algeria before, albeit for completely different reasons (diplomacy, loyalty, independence). While I like Tunisia as a country, I think that Morocco is the better choice for a civ game, with a slightly richer history (post-roman times) and less mediterranean. Tunisia is better of being represented by Carthage.

 

[Zaarin]

Wouldn't Algeria, and maybe Tunisia also make sense for this kind of Civ? Those three countries had Barbary Corsairs/pirates? I remember reading about a brief conflict the American government had with barbary corsairs, taking place during Jefferson's presidency, I believe.

"Millions for defense, but not one cent in tribute."

 

[Disgustipated]

Your ideas sound interesting. Not sure how Moroccans would react to this portrayal of their country though

I'm actually quite worried about future prospects for Civ in light of recent events. Especially with regards to marginalized societies/races. What if even more Nations/groups protest their portrayal in Civ games? What then? It's bad enough we no longer have Stalen and Mao, and no slavery either. I don't mean to say slavery is a good thing, that comment can be taken out of context very easily.

 

[Phrozen]

Wouldn't Algeria, and maybe Tunisia also make sense for this kind of Civ? Those three countries had Barbary Corsairs/pirates? I remember reading about a brief conflict the American government had with barbary corsairs, taking place during Jefferson's presidency, I believe.

There is a reason why "to the shores of Tripoli" is in the Marine corps hymn.

 

[Guandao]

I'm actually quite worried about future prospects for Civ in light of recent events. Especially with regards to marginalized societies/races. What if even more Nations/groups protest their portrayal in Civ games? What then? It's bad enough we no longer have Stalen and Mao, and no slavery either. I don't mean to say slavery is a good thing, that comment can be taken out of context very easily.

I consider it a good thing Mao Zedong is no longer in the game. Chinese history is pretty long (full of great/notable rulers), and they kept picking him to lead China for 4 games straight? Sounds like Sid Meier was obsessed with Communism or couldn't name a Chinese emperor off the top of his head.

 

[Siptah]

I'm actually quite worried about future prospects for Civ in light of recent events. Especially with regards to marginalized societies/races. What if even more Nations/groups protest their portrayal in Civ games? What then? It's bad enough we no longer have Stalen and Mao, and no slavery either. I don't mean to say slavery is a good thing, that comment can be taken out of context very easily.

And no fundamentalism with a certain unique unit...
I'm not too worried. In the worst case we'll see a lot of Iroquois and Sioux (which appear in many games) over time and a Polynesian blob civ again instead of single civs. Firaxis has a tendency to portray most (!) civs in a positive light. As long as they continue to do so, I don't see general problems. I just think this makes Israel who might officially complain that Arabia can convert and conquer them less likely.

 

[Guandao]

And no fundamentalism with a certain unique unit...

I haven't played the games before Civ5, so I have no idea which unique unit you are talking about.

 

[Disgustipated]

I consider it a good thing Mao Zedong is no longer in the game. Chinese history is pretty long (full of great/notable rulers), and they kept picking him to lead China for 4 games straight? Sounds like Sid Meier was obsessed with Communism or couldn't name a Chinese emperor off the top of his head.

Perhaps. I admit I don't know many Chinese leaders. Except the ones from Civ games. But would it be safe to say the current incarnation could be perhaps the most powerful China that has ever existed? They pretty much are superpower status at this point.

 

[Guandao]

Perhaps. I admit I don't know many Chinese leaders. Except the ones from Civ games. But would it be safe to say the current incarnation could be perhaps the most powerful China that has ever existed? They pretty much are superpower status at this point.

Several Chinese dynasties were pretty powerful for their time, like the Han, Tang, Ming, and Qing. They did interfere in the affairs of neighboring peoples and kingdoms, not to the extent of today's China, but still.

My own reasons for disliking Mao as a Civ leader is personal, since I'm of Chinese descent.

 

[Siptah]

I haven't played the games before Civ5, so I have no idea which unique unit you are talking about.

It was civ II. They were called Fanatics. I'd like to post an image, but googling civ fanatics gives a different result...

 

[pgm123]

Lydians literally created monetary value of gold & silver. They were the first capital-based economy, and situated on a valuable portion of the Silk Road, fell to Cyrus.. At its height with two Ancient World Wonders (Temple of Artemis & Mausoleum of Halicarnassus.. of course, non-Hellenic ). I think there's more potential to them than people care to believe.

They did create electrum coins. Herodotus does say they were the first to create coins, but there's archaeological evidence of coins being minted elsewhere in the Aegean at the same time, as well as India and China. And of course, non-coins being used as currency is older (either metals in standard weights or shapes or some sort of shell economy). But this ties into what I mean by them being boring. You think of coins, from Herodotus's description, first and foremost. How would you translate that into two abilities, a unit, and infrastructure.

As for the two wonders, I never said none of the cities were Hellenic, but that Lydia itself wasn't. We don't consider the Persians to be a Jewish civilization simply because Cyrus provided money for the construction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. Also, wasn't the Mausoleum constructed during the Persian era?

What do you mean by "first capital-based economy"?

If we're going to go to that region, I'd like the Hittites because the Ancient Era is incredibly underrepresented and we don't need to draw more from Herodotus, because I'm sick of Herodotus.

 

[Zaarin]

If we're going to go to that region, I'd like the Hittites because the Ancient Era is incredibly underrepresented and we don't need to draw more from Herodotus, because I'm sick of Herodotus.

Not to mention that Herodotus was a notorious falsifier.

 

[Siptah]

Not to mention that Herodotus was a notorious falsifier.

But it‘s such a fun read... and he put history in history

 

[Krajzen]

Perhaps. I admit I don't know many Chinese leaders. Except the ones from Civ games. But would it be safe to say the current incarnation could be perhaps the most powerful China that has ever existed? They pretty much are superpower status at this point.

No, current incarnation of China is not the most powerful China relative to the world (well in absolute terms every nation is most powerful today ).

For most of the human history it is estimated China had up to 25-30% of total population of humanity, now it is "only" 18%.
On top of that, for most of history China had global share of economy not much lesser than its share of population.
It was also insanely developed regarding science and technology until Europe catched up at some point in the early modern era.
During 3500 years of its confirmed history, China was conquered by the outside invaders just twice - in one case it required Mongol Empire, and in the second massive internal breakdown and Machu invasion on top of that.

Ironically, China was probably at its worst point in history during Mao because it had its lowest share in global economy and scientific output ever, while suffering most enormous loss of life of its entire history due to either genocide or insane mismanagment (or mix of both).

So yeah, that's about it regarding Mao as leader of China.
Thank God Firaxis finally stopped adding two modern genocidal killers to the game.

And my response to "But Genghis Khan!" "argument" of such leaders apologetics is simple:
I can forgive mass killings perpetrated by men from barbaric times clouded by centuries, also when we have no idea how much of what we know of them is true and when it was simply very long ago.
I cannot forgive mass murderers from the modern era - they should have known better and done better. Bonus points for living people impacted by their genocidal regimes.

 

[The Kingmaker]

My Classical Greek history professor at university described Herodotus' M.O. as being "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

 

[Zaarin]

100% what @Krajzen said.

My Classical Greek history professor at university described Herodotus' M.O. as being "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

Well, I like him better when you describe him as Ancient Garak.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Well, I like him better when you describe him as Ancient Garak.

Haha, too funny. You're not envisioning sitting down to a raktajino with him, are you?

 

[blackcatatonic]

Top eight expected civs for the last four R&F civs:

Inca - 83.8%
Ottoman Turks - 76.3%
Mali/Ghana/Songhai - 47.1%
Georgia - 35.4%
Carthage - 22.5%
Italy - 21.7%
Zulu - 17.9%
Byzantine Empire - 12.5%

To be fair, the only one of those I am close to certain we won't see in this expansion is the Zulu. We can probably expect them later, I just don't see a place for them in R&F when the "warmonger" slot is decidedly taken.

Any of the others are possible, though Inca and Ottomans are the most likely IMO. I went for Inca, Ottomans, Georgia and Italy but the Africa crowd are making me nervous

 

[Zaarin]

Haha, too funny. You're not envisioning sitting down to a raktajino with him, are you?

Never; Garak drinks red leaf tea.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

To be fair, the only one of those I am close to certain we won't see in this expansion is the Zulu. We can probably expect them later, I just don't see a place for them in R&F when the "warmonger" slot is decidedly taken.

Any of the others are possible, though Inca and Ottomans are the most likely IMO. I went for Inca, Ottomans, Georgia and Italy but the Africa crowd are making me nervous

I think we will get the requisite Sahel civ (Mali or otherwise) sooner or later. But I lean towards later since Nubia was introduced in the last wave of DLC.