Polynesia

[Funak]

I think it works well as it stands and we shouldn't be trying to fix what is working. Yes it's got some drawback but "the better" is the worst enemy of "the good".(Thomas Aquinas)

Again I'm mostly worried that it is something the AI isn't using properly while the player can exploit. Also because it looks ugly and doesn't really make sense

I agree this point. You forgot to mention that Maori warriors lose bonus damage against mounted.
maybe some combat bonus while defending?

Right, I wasn't even going to compare them to the Pikemen for that reason.
You mean like the Immortal promotion? I guess that could work although I'd rather see the unit keep up with in CS and their existing promotion made meaningful.

I think Polynesia suffers from some minor issues which can be solved with few tweaks.

Quite possible.

 

[tu_79]

To me, the biggest issue playing polynesia is that my coastal cities cannot be connected until very late. What's so great about people in polynesia? They went and colonize several tiny islands in ancient times. They didn't discover half world (that was Spain).

That their unit is somewhat underpowered is not an issue if moai lines (and triangles) get completed. Polynesia will throw tons of culture if built properly.
So my main complains are:
1. having to break a beautiful moai triangle when a strategic resource is discovered
2. having to wait until harbours to connect those island cities (just doesn't match Polynesia)

 

[Funak]

To me, the biggest issue playing polynesia is that my coastal cities cannot be connected until very late. What's so great about people in polynesia? They went and colonize several tiny islands in ancient times. They didn't discover half world (that was Spain).

That their unit is somewhat underpowered is not an issue if moai lines (and triangles) get completed. Polynesia will throw tons of culture if built properly.
So my main complains are:
1. having to break a beautiful moai triangle when a strategic resource is discovered

Their unit being garbage but their improvement is good so it makes up for it isn't really a good argument.

I have to admit that I'm being overly harsh on the moai, but I'm not a fan of how big of a difference it makes between a regular coastal start and an optimal start. I mean just the difference between having a single line of coast and a double line of coast in 4 times the culture.

That along with how terrible moai-cattle looks.

2. having to wait until harbours to connect those island cities (just doesn't match Polynesia)

Can't really please all here, Indonesia already has the ability to ignore isolation, and they are just as famous for island-living and Polynesians.



For the Moai, you could do something along the line of letting it get buffed for every adjacent coast-tile instead of every adjacent moai. Or you could cut it down to getting a boost for every 2 adjacent ocean-tiles and buffing the base-yields a whole lot. The improvement would still be good and you could get rid of the ability to build them on resources without feeling like you're maiming them.

 

[Gazebo]

Their unit being garbage but their improvement is good so it makes up for it isn't really a good argument.

I have to admit that I'm being overly harsh on the moai, but I'm not a fan of how big of a difference it makes between a regular coastal start and an optimal start. I mean just the difference between having a single line of coast and a double line of coast in 4 times the culture.

That along with how terrible moai-cattle looks.



Can't really please all here, Indonesia already has the ability to ignore isolation, and they are just as famous for island-living and Polynesians.



For the Moai, you could do something along the line of letting it get buffed for every adjacent coast-tile instead of every adjacent moai. Or you could cut it down to getting a boost for every 2 adjacent ocean-tiles and buffing the base-yields a whole lot. The improvement would still be good and you could get rid of the ability to build them on resources without feeling like you're maiming them.

Lighthouse will be city connection next patch. So that'll help.

G

 

[Funak]

Lighthouse will be city connection next patch. So that'll help.

Had a feeling that would happen eventually, Harbors do just unlock way too late.

Any thoughts on the Maori warrior or the Moai?
And maybe you could shed some light on if the AI actually knows how to build moai on top of resources, please?

 

[Gazebo]

Had a feeling that would happen eventually, Harbors do just unlock way too late.

Any thoughts on the Maori warrior or the Moai?
And maybe you could shed some light on if the AI actually knows how to build moai on top of resources, please?

The Maori Warrior could be made a little cheaper - kinda like a pseudo-landsknecht in a way. I like the idea of Polynesia pouring out cheap medieval infantry that keep their Maori promotion.

AI should be able to - no reason they'd specifically not do it.

G

 

[Funak]

The Maori Warrior could be made a little cheaper - kinda like a pseudo-landsknecht in a way. I like the idea of Polynesia pouring out cheap medieval infantry that keep their Maori promotion.

No offense, but you know how much people disliked the vanilla landsknecht, maybe not the best rolemodel? ^^.
Besides considering their haka-dance promotion doesn't stack (and it shouldn't) flooding them diminishes their value even more. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it is a good match, flooding is better used for fast units with flanking or similar promotions.

AI should be able to - no reason they'd specifically not do it.

Makes sense, but I don't remember ever seeing it done. And if they use the same mechanic for deciding on tiles that automated workers do, it probably makes sense as my last game automated workers pastured a cattle with 5 adjacent moai.


Anyways, thanks for the response, I appreciate it.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

Lighthouse will be city connection next patch. So that'll help.

G

I love this change.
But I have to mention that this reduces the value of Indonesias UA a bit.
Wrong thread, I know.

 

[Funak]

I love this change.
But I have to mention that this reduces the value of Indonesias UA a bit.
Wrong thread, I know.

Reduces Carthage's value A LOT, probably a bigger concern .

The real problem is that there isn't a building in between the lighthouse and the harbor, and the harbor just unlocks too late. I know this isn't exactly possible but having lighthouses provide some kind of 'soft-connection' maybe limited in range or something like that and then have the harbor provide the full connection would be awesome. You could still have small islands off the coast, but any overseas colonies would require a harbor.

 

[tu_79]

Wait, wait. Some questions here.

So, polynesians don't suffer isolation? Since when?

And, wasn't sea connections already limited by sea trade range? I'd vow I've read this before.

 

[Funak]

Wait, wait. Some questions here.

So, polynesians don't suffer isolation? Since when?

Where did you get that idea from...?

And, wasn't sea connections already limited by sea trade range? I'd vow I've read this before.

Also where did you get that idea from?

 

[Legen]

Just keep in mind that you can build Cargo Ships for city connection while you're still unable to build the Harbor. Assuming the cities are within range and that the city of origin has a granary, stone works or a workshop (should you beeline its tech, can't remember now which one unlocks it).

 

[Gokudo01]

Just keep in mind that you can build Cargo Ships for city connection while you're still unable to build the Harbor. Assuming the cities are within range and that the city of origin has a granary, stone works or a workshop (should you beeline its tech, can't remember now which one unlocks it).

You can build cargo to remove the unhappiness from isolation but you don't get the gold from city connection or bonus linked to it.

Example : Cargo doesn't grant you + 3 science from fraternity

 

[Legen]

You can build cargo to remove the unhappiness from isolation but you don't get the gold from city connection or bonus linked to it.

Example : Cargo doesn't grant you + 3 science from fraternity

I know, I was thinking of the Indonesia UA confusion thing when I wrote that. Not that it matters that much if Lighthouses are to establish city connection. Good for Denmark, I guess; will they be able to connect landlocked cities with their UB?

Anyway, back to Polynesia.

 

[void_genesis]

Any thoughts on swapping tile yields on natural wonders to instant per city yields on their discovery instead?

 

[Funak]

Any thoughts on swapping tile yields on natural wonders to instant per city yields on their discovery instead?

You mean for Polynesia alone? I'm personally not a big fan, I think discovering and gaining control of natural wonders is the point of that ability. Might have worked for the old Spanish UA, since Spain was more focused on exploration.

Either way the yield imbalance of the natural wonders can totally be fixed, and I really don't think that's the main problem here.

As for this patch I don't see the minor cost-reduction of the Maori warrior making a big difference, it is still probably the worst unique unit in the game, just having more of them doesn't make them feel fun.

 

[tu_79]

Where did you get that idea from...?

See your post #23
"Can't really please all here, Indonesia already has the ability to ignore isolation, and they are just as famous for island-living and Polynesians."

EDIT: Oh, so you said Indonesia, my fault.

Also where did you get that idea from?

I remember to have read it somewhere, can't say where.

 

[tu_79]

Any thoughts on swapping tile yields on natural wonders to instant per city yields on their discovery instead?

I'm with Funak. Polynesians aren't explorers, they are island settlers.

The exploring thing is best left for civs like Spain, Portugal or England. And I am biased towards Spain, obviously.

 

[Funak]

The exploring thing is best left for civs like Spain, Portugal or England. And I am biased towards Spain, obviously.

The current Spanish UA is kinda fine, other than the irony of the reconquista grants food when in reality it killed a lot of people . Current Portugal and England are pretty fine as well, I don't think another ability triggering off national wonders is necessary, maybe for a custom-civ down the road, if we ever get that started.

 

[Gazebo]

I'm with Funak. Polynesians aren't explorers, they are island settlers.

The exploring thing is best left for civs like Spain, Portugal or England. And I am biased towards Spain, obviously.

Polynesians were sailing around the pacific settling islands before Europeans found the new world. They were most certainly explorers.

G