Post a (tough) Deity map for me to play

[shakabrade]

I have found this old post from 3.5 years ago and I am glad that I have never been more right about something:

Hi Lain, first, I must say that I like the way you learn. You identify weakness and then attack it. You'll probably be a very consistent deity player in couple of months when you get more intuition (which is basically condensed experience).

They grow up so quickly.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah, I was very disappointed when I saw the map that won the poll. I presume many voters just didn't know the map or didn't realize the likely outcome, which is purely luck based (will he plot or not).

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
-Winston Churchill

 

[Fippy]

Monty attacking would be no problem tbh, if more secure land would be available.
Hill city and pro Archers, have fun Featherhead.

In my first try i knew it's rng luck based when i go out and expand, but i figured it's boring without more cities (and just dying slowly with no hope later).

 

[sampsa]

I think the Hammurabi NC is hard, but probably doable, just because you have more land to work with.

 

[Lain]

Thanks for the kind words Shakabrade! Well, I tried, could have worked maybe with a bit more luck. Will continue the Ragnar map on saturday .

 

[shakabrade]

Just trying the Ragnar map and then I realized that I have faced only barb warriors until T28. I will need to add Archery to the Barbs and try to replay similarly. Not too much going on except scouting those turns anyway. #fishstarts

 

[shakabrade]

Ragnar map

Spoiler :

I realized that there are not many AIs and that there was a lot of land. I actually know that Asoka knows someone else due to espionage spending. Fish start is problematic because workboats are not reusable and relatively expensive. That means that there are no fot spawnbusting warriors. That leads to problems like barb invasion. We had lot of forests so I decided to go for TGW. Also, GSpy is great for economy to catch up after REXing. I have chopped the boats and whip overflowed into TGW from the second worker and then workers started chopping. I counted turns and production and I should have gotten TGW around 2240BC which is a good date.
Tech path: Mining - BW - Masonry

Aaaaand voila:

Spoiler :

A turn before I am able to whip TGW, I lose the warrior to C2 Archer and the plain warrior. First combat was 28.6% and the second 3.something%. So, less than 1% chance of that happening. It happened. I could have built the 3rd warrior, but I think one should take 99% gambles in civ.
If I played again, I'd do the same.

 

[Fippy]

T45 Great Wall is pretty bad anyways imo, high chance of an AI being faster

 

[shakabrade]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

T45 Great Wall is pretty bad anyways imo, high chance of an AI being faster

I was ok with losing TGW, it either goes 2880BC or 1960BC. Also, around 2560BC is popular. It is not really continuously spread across dates due to early techs and settlers taking relatively fixed time to complete. If it went sooner, I'd be alive with more warriors and half or complete Archery. Not in the best position, but would have 3 good unpillageable tiles and slow (but live) game after that. I did not recognize the need for Archery soon enough (I have researched wheel and Pottery after Masonry, so, definitely enough beakers were in the game) and was not ready to detour into units so close to the TGW. This was very good and very unlikely moment for me to die, although there was a decent amount of gambling in the game I did not think I'd die directly to the RNG. But it is fair.

Did you have a go at the game?

 

[drewisfat]

Seems the consensus on here is the Monty map comes down to RNG luck on whether he will plot. I disagree. I was DOWed something like 15/15 times within 20 turns. If you settle the double fish, expect an immediate response.
If you resist, Monty with all the gold will beeline construction and you'll soon see catapults.

The map knowledge dependent solution is to settle on Freddy's continent ASAP, and/or far to the left where Monty doesn't prioritize expansion for a while.

 

[Fippy]

I would say it's possible to bunker in yup, hill city 3w makes for the only real advantage (galleys could be annoying, but AIs are usually bad with that).
My problem was barbs settled on the other landmass, so that part i still consider highly rng dependant. If they are not doing that, okay we can build up there

Would you think AIs in general are good enuf to take out 10+ Archers on a hill?
Even with Cats i have my doubts, considering their weird stacks

Not played the other game (yet), Shakabrade.

 

[sampsa]

@drewisfat I never tried the Charley-map, but I hear ya. I think that makes the map just unplayable on stream.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I was also disappointed when Charly map was voted. I guess some people need scandal and sensational news and would love to see (almost impeccable) Lain die once in a while! Some of them probably simply click the worst and most impossible option of all.
I think I had voted for Sitting Bull, the map looked also tough on the first glance, but you never know what is beyond the capitol.

 

[drewisfat]

@Fippy I was saying that if you settle specifically the double fish spot it's no longer an issue of if Monty will attack, as it appears inevitable. There is indeed RNG with the barb city taking the nearby peninsula that you'd probably want. But also in my experience it's basically inevitable that the barb city will appear. Need to sac an early wb to keep it busted or basically forfeit the spot unless you get some crazy luck. There's also obviously RNG if you go the GLH route.

I wasn't saying it's impossible to hold a hill city with pro archers against the AI, but the double fish spot isn't a hill. I did actually have a loss baiting him to attack a hill city, because he caught me off guard with how early catas arrived - granted I didn't quite have 10 archers. But it's still not a great solution. There's not much of an economy going besides non-FIN water tiles. So 10 archers + galleys to be able to settle more than 2 cities and stop barb galleys puts the economy in quite a damper. There's not really any commerce to save you nearby. There's a fur city you can beat Freddy to fairly easily, but IIRC you have to decide between 2 furs 0 food, or 1 fur and 1 fish but neither available til border pop. Not great. Definitely needs some Fippy style great people magic. Granted if you don't expand on your original continent past your peninsula, Monty will probably leave you alone long enough for you to get him to friendly, so you won't have to tank the unit upkeep. But if you do fight Monty early IDK how you transition to being offensive. You can farm GGs, but Monty isn't doomed to fall behind in tech when he has huge amounts of land and several golds.

 

[Fippy]

Just a quick note, i saw you were thinking a barb city might spawn on a fogged tile Lain (early Justi game, warrior on hill or not near stone).
Not possible, barb cities can only pop from barb units so if there was none you were fine on the hill.

 

[shakabrade]

barb cities can only pop from barb units

Wut? Did not know that and never in many years stumbled upon that information. Always thought barb cities spawn by their own mechanics. I even had an experience that barb cities spawned on the only fogged tile, surrounded by unfogged. But maybe it was not spawnbusted. Do you remember the source?

 

[Fippy]

No source, just personal experience (and i also tested many things back then)
I have never seen a barb city spawn on fogged tiles in 100% spawnbusted (but still partly fogged) areas,
but as soon as a barb ran around i saw them pop up. I could be wrong ofc, but am 99%.

 

[shakabrade]

@Fippy. I am sure you have much more games to draw your experience from. I always occupy the food + luxury city spot I want to take with a unit, but this new knowledge could allow more greedy play.

 

[Qactus]

Hmmm, DanF taught otherwise though. In a thread where he answered many questions about barbs spawning, entering borders, teching, etc he showed one example of an efficiently and completely spawnbusted island, and then made this statement regarding barb cities still being able to spawn:

...
Note that barb cities CAN appear 2 tiles away from my units if the tile is in the fog though.

Later in the same thread he doubled down on that statement:

Assume the special case of a lonely heart start. So does this mean that even though I've got barb-busters within 2 tiles of every land tile on my continent outside my cultural borders, a barb city can still spawn on my continent if the tile is in fog?

Yes, I recommend actual fogbusting in the juicy areas with high founding values (lot's of resources, often coastal) where you plan to get a city up via a settler. It's interesting to note that the likelihood for an early barb city spawning on your LHC island is rather low -- the game prefers to spawn them on the continents with the highest number of owned tiles, even if these places are much crappier than the sites on your continent.

 

[Fippy]

In a time where i played many Iso maps, i have never seen a barb city pop up after i had everything fogbusted & cleared off barbs (but ofc without vision on all tiles, which is usually impossible on larger islands).
Maybe it's possible, but i cannot remember even 1 case.