Post a (tough) Deity map for me to play

[krikav]

New game up!

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't seen any of his previous videos, but have watched a great amount of Absolute Zero's before, and learnt a great deal from him. Have now watched the first two in this series, and he seems well on track, so say the least, despite a pretty underwhelming start location. Like with other good players that play fast, I'm always amazed at how quickly stuff gets built and an army is out and cracking heads. Blink, and you miss it

Footnote, but I just can't help but find it funny when he uses the bas-word about so much I fondly remember a Seinfeld episode.

This is probably well-known among people who have watched previous videos, but there are some nice tips along the way too, like with a diplo situation during these first two videos.

 

[Pangaea]

Some talk in the recent Nobles Club game if @Lain would like to try it out. It certainly wasn't easy. Would be interesting to see how you would play it.

I'll just leave another game here as well. Rolled it and started playing as Gilga, but holy mother did things turn ugly. If people want to play it, I'll let you find out yourself

This is the start, and I'll attach the starting save (Deity/Fractal/Standard/Random opponents/no huts/no events)

Spoiler :

Let's just keep quiet about the bread-head. He's a little sensitive about his intelligence.

Can't imagine my attempt goes very well here (have only played 50 turns), but it would be interesting to see how others play it.

 

[shakabrade]

I played until 25AD.

Spoiler :

I guess the tough part were the barbs. I lost a warrior attacking barb archer to prevent wheat being pillaged. The other warrior won. And I lost furs to pillaging. But then I killed those 3-4 barbs and pushed warriors in position for fogbusting the north where they came from (south was fogbusted because I was guarding my city spots). I also researched Archery, but barbs attacked too damn early. But Archery was researched because of neighbours anyway.
I started my tech with Mining - BW - Hunting - Archery - Pottery - AH - Writing - Aesthetics.
BW first because early production was needed to claim those hill cities as soon as possible. Also, sheep were farmable and were farmed so that is only +1 food difference.

The southern Floodplains plus sheep hilltop city was claimed as a second city to get good defending position against shaka and GK. The third city was Corn/Copper/Gold site. Very good site at size 4-5.
GK went into fisting mode, I built my defense of Archers and Vultures on a hill. And he attacked Shaka. Anyway, I jumped in and managed to snipe a Zulu city with a single patient vulture mixed with GK's SoD. Now, Zulu are almost dead and Sitting bull declared on GK. I would like to hop in, but I am concerned about Jewish coalition attacking me as a the next in line infidel (actually Buddhist). I have no Fishing and will probably bulb Engineering with the GS and GA I have saved, and the next GS is soon (I have built GLib but will intentionally fail Parthenon) and just spam units to win the map. SB was kind and gave Ivory for Copper and War elephants are in as well.

Doing pretty well.

Actually, I have a strange bug where I lose my cursor (it becomes glitched or completely missing). Sometimes it persists even when I close the game. And restart is needed. Those barbs and a need to restart are the only annoyance so far.

 

[Pangaea]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

I guess the tough part were the barbs.

Wow. That turned out very differently to my game. Barbs were brutal indeed. They smashed both my wheat and sheep before I had a chance to do anything, and I teched Archery too. Almost lost a fur as well, but managed to get rid of some barbs with a suiciding archer (follow up won) and the first vulture coming to the rescue. And before that those western and southern spots got hijacked by Genghis and Sitting Bull. Lost several warriors in the west early on as well (at coinflip odds), without the barbs suffering any damage at all (and gaining two promotions).

However, with better luck against barbs and the AIs not settling in your face so early, I see it's possible to make something out of this game. Everything turned ugly for me. One horrible AI after the other showed up, barbs wrecked my stuff and had the RNG in their pocket, and the AIs settled in my face very early. I gave up in turn 60 or thereabouts.

Interesting that you started with Mining-BW. I went for food (as usual really), but did Hunting first. Needed that for furs anyway, and assumed I'd need archery sooner or later. Think I went BW after Archery, but don't recall for sure. I played a handful of starts for 30-50 turns with Gilga, and it's all a blurry mix of bad stuff occurring.

 

[Pangaea]

As of game 40, these leaders have been played:
Asoka
Boudica (2)
Brennus
Catherine
Cyrus
Darius
Elizabeth
Frederick
Genghis Khan
Gilgamesh
Hannibal
Hatshepsut
Isabella
Joao
Justinian
Kublai Khan
Lincoln (2)
Louis
Mansa (2)
Mao
Montezuma
Pacal
Pericles
Peter
Ragnar
Ramesses
Saladin (2)
Shaka
Sitting Bull
Stalin
Suleiman
Sury (2)
Tokugawa
Wang
Willem

These haven't been played yet:
Alexander
Augustus
Bismarck
Charlemagne
Churchill
De Gaulle
Gandhi
Hammurabi
Huayna Capac ( )
Julius Caesar
Mehmed
Napoleon
Qin
Roosevelt
Victoria
Washington
Zara

 

[shakabrade]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

Wow. That turned out very differently to my game. Barbs were brutal indeed. They smashed both my wheat and sheep before I had a chance to do anything, and I teched Archery too. Almost lost a fur as well, but managed to get rid of some barbs with a suiciding archer (follow up won) and the first vulture coming to the rescue. And before that those western and southern spots got hijacked by Genghis and Sitting Bull. Lost several warriors in the west early on as well (at coinflip odds), without the barbs suffering any damage at all (and gaining two promotions).

However, with better luck against barbs and the AIs not settling in your face so early, I see it's possible to make something out of this game. Everything turned ugly for me. One horrible AI after the other showed up, barbs wrecked my stuff and had the RNG in their pocket, and the AIs settled in my face very early. I gave up in turn 60 or thereabouts.

Interesting that you started with Mining-BW. I went for food (as usual really), but did Hunting first. Needed that for furs anyway, and assumed I'd need archery sooner or later. Think I went BW after Archery, but don't recall for sure. I played a handful of starts for 30-50 turns with Gilga, and it's all a blurry mix of bad stuff occurring.

It wasn't luck about AI settling. When Barbs struck, I already had one city and had started chopping the second settler. Those chops were redirected into warriors. What makes the difference is opening with BW and ignoring AH, that is 20T of chopping sooner. Those early hammers are huge. My capital was mainly whipping and chopping from in 4-2 cycle until I claimed what I could. A sacrifice in tech was made but since whis is not isolation map, you only need to get to Writing somehow and then you are good.

 

[Pangaea]

Could you please put that reply inside spoilers, just in case Lain wants to play it? It's not very spoilery, but a little.

Spoiler :

I don't recall the exact timing of those AI cities now, but I remember seeing borders pop up both in the south and west very soon. Due to barb problems in my game I wasn't even able to discover that nice spot far south because I didn't dare to put warriors further out, possibly running head-first into another barb archer. Bad start, and it just tailspun from there I've not tried to replay with going BW first, but maybe I'll try that later. That said, given the AIs on this map, I can't imagine my skillset would make anything out of the game anyway. Currently having problems deciding when to go for Archery and not. Several games now I've got into barb problems early on, and in desperation teched archery - like a game I recently tried with Mehmed (so needed hunting+archery). When I got there, no more barbs could be seen. But it had set me back some 15 turns of research. Admittedly I was on the lucky side with barb fights in that game, and forest-warriors won 2-3 fights against archers (and another must have invaded nearby England).

In short, trying to step up to Deity is very tough for me. It's like a totally different game from Immortal. What is usually good plays on Immortal (and below) simply doesn't work on Deity, because you start from so far behind and the barbs invade much sooner. Going BW first here I simply didn't consider (at least seriously), but it's probably one of those harsh sacrifices one must make to stake a claim on the land.

In that Mehmed game mentioned above, I did skip AH despite having a capital hill pig in favour of early BW, and due to dry rice and dry corn the city grew to four and I could then 2-pop the settler in 2700BC or thereabouts. So much sooner than normal with slow-producing the settler at size 3.

edit: I looked up how I started, and it was actually Hunting-AH-Mining-BW-Archery-Pottery-Writing. Didn't turn out very well, as can be seen below. But it should also be said that I was really unfortunate with barbs and the RNG.

Spoiler :

 

[shakabrade]

Could you please put that reply inside spoilers, just in case Lain wants to play it? It's not very spoilery, but a little.

Spoiler :

I don't recall the exact timing of those AI cities now, but I remember seeing borders pop up both in the south and west very soon. Due to barb problems in my game I wasn't even able to discover that nice spot far south because I didn't dare to put warriors further out, possibly running head-first into another barb archer. Bad start, and it just tailspun from there I've not tried to replay with going BW first, but maybe I'll try that later. That said, given the AIs on this map, I can't imagine my skillset would make anything out of the game anyway. Currently having problems deciding when to go for Archery and not. Several games now I've got into barb problems early on, and in desperation teched archery - like a game I recently tried with Mehmed (so needed hunting+archery). When I got there, no more barbs could be seen. But it had set me back some 15 turns of research. Admittedly I was on the lucky side with barb fights in that game, and forest-warriors won 2-3 fights against archers (and another must have invaded nearby England).

In short, trying to step up to Deity is very tough for me. It's like a totally different game from Immortal. What is usually good plays on Immortal (and below) simply doesn't work on Deity, because you start from so far behind and the barbs invade much sooner. Going BW first here I simply didn't consider (at least seriously), but it's probably one of those harsh sacrifices one must make to stake a claim on the land.

In that Mehmed game mentioned above, I did skip AH despite having a capital hill pig in favour of early BW, and due to dry rice and dry corn the city grew to four and I could then 2-pop the settler in 2700BC or thereabouts. So much sooner than normal with slow-producing the settler at size 3.

Element of luck could be that you maybe went to explore into different direction. I can see that you could miss the spot in the south that way. Also, I did have 3-4 moves in the open where you get exposed, but did not encounter barbs. That is pure luck. But with BW first on this map, you have more warriors for exploration and fogbusting whatever happens. Regarding Archery, it will never lose you a game. It is just that it will make your victory date a bit slower while making an early loss far less probable. On crowded maps with tech trades, you basically lose almost nothing by teching Archery. But need to forget about early wonders. When to expect barb troubles, when you see tundra and ice, pretty much always.

Deity is deceptable because you always lag in score so much and start panicking. But what matters the most is food. If you are even in tech, simply by being more focused than the AI you always stand a chance. Basically, Diplo and Tech trading are an actual part of the game only on Deity. On Deity it is good to be able to predict when you will consolidate and decide what kind of push you'll try to make. Elepult, Trebs, Cuirs, Cavs, Cannons, ... Or see that HAs are your only desperate chance to escape being boxed in. You can also win with 8 cities and decent tech trades. I mean, you can still do anything, but you need far more focus and figure out that you basically want to build Wealth and everything else is just in the way. That is how I feel. Deity warring is also much different, as AIs have twice the cities and reinforcements are really PITA. You need to figure out how to take people out quickly, lose no time healing, stuff like that. You actually already know that, just need more practice to feel the moment. When I learned Deity I played Fractal maps because anything is possible. You learn to value scouting much more. I think you are basically there.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks. You are right that I need more practice, and learn to focus even more. It's especially the early game that is utterly brutal. Luck plays a part too, it's just the way it is, and more so than on Immortal and below. You have mentioned some of the cases.

I tried again btw. Went better, but not very.

Spoiler :

Went Mining-BW right away. Makes getting to size four slower, but I could have got the 2nd city pretty early and in a good spot. Unfortunately barbs were ruining my day again. Not from invading the capital this time, it's been quiet on that front actually. But a guerilla-warrior in a forest lost to barb archer, which made it harder to settle in the south. Got another warrior down there and moved the settler southwards. But spotted the surviving archer (now with combat1 and 2.4 health) plus another barb archer. So had to settle the city elsewhere instead. Got into extreme trouble there too.

Put the worker there hoping the barb would sidestep, giving me the one turn needed to gain 20% culture.

He didn't of course, but in this instance I was very lucky indeed.

But a few turns later Genghis comes and steals my spot in the south, with Shaka's borders visible too, and I toss out this one too The next settler is ready to be 2-popped, but it's simply way too late for the south.

As you can see I've not even dared to go into the west yet. A warrior is watching from the forested hill NW of the capital, and killed an archer from there, but I've yet to go west. Could still settle one north of that green hill. But then it's border pressure with Genghis, and not on a hill? Yeah, good luck with that. If it was some other AI that wasn't such a crazy unit spammer, Vulture rushing might be on. This crowd is brutal though. However, if one can get better spots early on, hatred from Shaka and Genghis is more likely to be directed towards Sitting Bull, so that's a positive.

If Lain plays this, maybe his skill will enable him to get off to a good start. Looks like I would require better skills, and even more luck. In that 2nd attempt I actually was pretty lucky, at least with the city attack.

 

[shakabrade]

Thanks. You are right that I need more practice, and learn to focus even more. It's especially the early game that is utterly brutal. Luck plays a part too, it's just the way it is, and more so than on Immortal and below. You have mentioned some of the cases.

I tried again btw. Went better, but not very.

Spoiler :

Went Mining-BW right away. Makes getting to size four slower, but I could have got the 2nd city pretty early and in a good spot. Unfortunately barbs were ruining my day again. Not from invading the capital this time, it's been quiet on that front actually. But a guerilla-warrior in a forest lost to barb archer, which made it harder to settle in the south. Got another warrior down there and moved the settler southwards. But spotted the surviving archer (now with combat1 and 2.4 health) plus another barb archer. So had to settle the city elsewhere instead. Got into extreme trouble there too.

Put the worker there hoping the barb would sidestep, giving me the one turn needed to gain 20% culture.

He didn't of course, but in this instance I was very lucky indeed.

But a few turns later Genghis comes and steals my spot in the south, with Shaka's borders visible too, and I toss out this one too The next settler is ready to be 2-popped, but it's simply way too late for the south.

As you can see I've not even dared to go into the west yet. A warrior is watching from the forested hill NW of the capital, and killed an archer from there, but I've yet to go west. Could still settle one north of that green hill. But then it's border pressure with Genghis, and not on a hill? Yeah, good luck with that. If it was some other AI that wasn't such a crazy unit spammer, Vulture rushing might be on. This crowd is brutal though. However, if one can get better spots early on, hatred from Shaka and Genghis is more likely to be directed towards Sitting Bull, so that's a positive.

If Lain plays this, maybe his skill will enable him to get off to a good start. Looks like I would require better skills, and even more luck. In that 2nd attempt I actually was pretty lucky, at least with the city attack.

Spoiler :

Maybe your south warrior is in the forest and should have been on the hill simply to fogbust more. Personally, I actually don't engage much with barbs if I can just move. If they are 4-5 tiles farther from the city, they do not attack. And I try to dance around them when they are close. People say it is bad luck when barbs go or don't go after a city. If they are far enough, they do not even consider it by design (do not remember the actual distance needed, as I was in 3-4 year hiatus, but I know there is a number so if anyone knows and reads this, please share). In my game, I settled south between T35 and T37 as T40 is usually when barbs start entering borders. Also, sheep should have been farmed.

I guess, that is all about micro. Yeah, early game micro is very important on Deity. You can't go past it. I dislike micro, but first 40T I will usually count worker turns to do stuff and try to see how will my techs come aboard to figure out the right build. I do it from T0, before settling. There are also some small finesses to figure, like moving in a way to have the least chance of encountering anything when not ending move on a forest hill, stuff like that. Or moving all fogbusters when one moves forward with warriors to avoid having a hole. Playing on Deity will just make you more careful. That is why I failed in GOTM on Emperor game. I was too careful as I haven't played below Immortal since 2011. Playing Deity and playing other levels is just a different game. Not better not worse, just different.

 

[Fippy]

I think sometimes micro gets mixed up with crucial early planning
When i have 1 or 2 cities and still barbs to worry about or so, it's not micro for me..but surviving.
Micro stands for small, but those early turns are big

Lain puts in much effort there and usually claims his reward.

 

[Pangaea]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

About that forest warrior, I tried to move further south earlier in the game when borders expanded, and it's sort of how I lost the guy. An archer popped up two tiles away, and I moved back to the forest (he had guerrilla after all). Still lost the fight, but maybe 25% fortification (from before) instead of 10% would have tipped it in my balance. Stuff like that is bad luck though. I could have moved out and not seen any barbs, and got into a nicer barb-busting position.

Thought about farming the sheep, and it was a mistake not doing it. I should have. Figured it would be five wasted turns and I'd rather make a couple of roads to get the settler south earlier (and chop that forest). But farming the sheep would have been better. I underestimated how long it would take before I had AH online. Small details all the time, but it adds up quickly - especially in the early game.

Actually just watched the first Lain episode of a Darius game. Very nice start, but dang did he get assaulted by barbs. If he wasn't so good at microing units and teching Archery early, he'd have lost that game. Surely even Lain can lose from time to time.

Hard to know what to do with your early units as well. Do I move a little further out to be better at barb-busting -- but risk losing him if I do that and end up next to an archer? In that sense scouts are better, but of course they are useless at defending anything but wolves and the like.

 

[Olafeson]

@Pangaea

here my attempt, i am currently turn 118 but this is still the turn 100 save for the giggles map. Not sure though if the map would be a challenge for Lain. If he still checks out the forum from time to time. I think he would do quite well on it. Not sure though, i think he is quite busy with RL stuff nowadays.

Spoiler :

Early game was quite forgiving to me with the barb situation, i remember that i mostly encountered warriors.

early tech path: AH - Mining - hunting - archery -BW - Masonry - pottery -Writing

managed to both get the Mids aswell as the Glibrary, failgold from parthenon and some nice size 1 to size 2 cities at the fur. Also was lucky since i got the spot that pangeae lost as my 4th city so quite late. Lots of war is going on, but all the warmongers are so far behind.

Also went for music and got GA and will soon bulb engineering. They dont even have longbows yet, some people not even monarchy or even PH. Should be possible to get a lot of value out of medieval war.

Unfortunately tokugawa did bribe in Justinian into the war with shaka by peace vassaling to justinian. That is a problem. Not sure if i could have prevented that.
Will probably offer engineering to Justinian in order to make peace with shaka. Don t want him to have 2 vassals, that would be pretty bad. Maybe Lib was an option aswell here, but with so much crazyness and war, i feel better when i am a bit bigger and have an army.

Biggest question for me now is if i should use the GA from music for a Golden Age, or save him for later. I want to switch into police state and maybe thoecracy and also adopt justinians religion. That would be 2 turns of anarchy. So would be nice to have a GA, but then on the other hand, i want to whip units now and i could use GA to switch back to Rep and Org religion after the war, to go teching. Would also have more cities to profit from the GA then.

 

[shakabrade]

I think sometimes micro gets mixed up with crucial early planning
When i have 1 or 2 cities and still barbs to worry about or so, it's not micro for me..but surviving.
Micro stands for small, but those early turns are big

Lain puts in much effort there and usually claims his reward.

When you manage to get stuff turn or two more quickly due to active manipulation of hammers/food and worker turns, I'd say it is still micro. Unit movement to maximize fogbusting - micro. If you, for instance, dedicate your first chops to build fogbusting warriors instead of settler/worker/granary, that is more like survival strategy not micro.

I will often chop warriors and even more often oveflow into them. I think most on the forums feel it is a waste. But that is how you get into those fogbusting positions and fewer barbs get spawn. Lain pursues the same path: in order to win first you do not lose.

 

[shakabrade]

@shakabrade

Spoiler :

About that forest warrior, I tried to move further south earlier in the game when borders expanded, and it's sort of how I lost the guy. An archer popped up two tiles away, and I moved back to the forest (he had guerrilla after all). Still lost the fight, but maybe 25% fortification (from before) instead of 10% would have tipped it in my balance. Stuff like that is bad luck though. I could have moved out and not seen any barbs, and got into a nicer barb-busting position.

Thought about farming the sheep, and it was a mistake not doing it. I should have. Figured it would be five wasted turns and I'd rather make a couple of roads to get the settler south earlier (and chop that forest). But farming the sheep would have been better. I underestimated how long it would take before I had AH online. Small details all the time, but it adds up quickly - especially in the early game.

Actually just watched the first Lain episode of a Darius game. Very nice start, but dang did he get assaulted by barbs. If he wasn't so good at microing units and teching Archery early, he'd have lost that game. Surely even Lain can lose from time to time.

Hard to know what to do with your early units as well. Do I move a little further out to be better at barb-busting -- but risk losing him if I do that and end up next to an archer? In that sense scouts are better, but of course they are useless at defending anything but wolves and the like.

It really sounds like you had bad luck. And Olafeson had no troubles at all. I guess AI scouts dealt with barbs in his game. ¸But regarding AH and underestimating when it comes, you can really just add turns needed for techs and take some 80% of that value due to prerequisites bonus. You can literally nail it. Those roads are not that important that early. I basically just try to connect with the closest city as it gives you 2 trade routes (axpansion and capital), while every other connection gives you only one. I agree about the scouts. I actually prefer them.

 

[shakabrade]

Second attempt, now settled where I'd settle (claim one more sheep instead of furs as food is mama).

Spoiler :

This time it was AH first followed by BW.

There was no barb trouble at all. I had just one combat and it was around T50ish. Southern fogbuster just danced around one Archer (which actually survived the battle with an AI) and when I settled south, it attacked and since it was wounded, just died.

Interesting, this time Shaka totally demolished everyone and has 2 vassals. Although my empire is better than in the last attempt, I think this game is much more challenging. We have a superpower which has 2 warmongers for vassals (Toku peacevassaled). So many units to defeat. I hope SB is the next target (and he is the worst enemy of Shaka) but if it is me, it is GG. He has too many Cats and War elephants. The goal here is to get to Cuirs if horses become available, or even Cannons plus Grens. I'll try to get to the end.

Tech pace is uneven, and not too many trades are available. I will need to self-tech Metal Casting.

 

[unas876]

I read a few of the spoilers from people playing this map, and Lain had kind of a surprising opening in this one! Ye shall see. Looks like a great game already.​

 

[Pangaea]

I read a few of the spoilers from people playing this map, and Lain had kind of a surprising opening in this one! Ye shall see. Looks like a great game already.

Seen the first episode, and wow. What I thought would be a tricky map everybody else are twirling around their finger. Interesting that he settled north towards the tundra, but I suppose the PH (and more food) made it worth it. Very impressive start. And I was amazed how often he would go into the darkness and never have anything bad happen. That ruined my day so many times across the two attempts I had at this map.

We actually started with the same techs, though, so I'm feeling a little better about going Hunting-AH now

 

[Olafeson]

Indeed i was very surprised about his opening play.

Spoiler :

Never thought he would value the 2 hammer capital on a plains hill so highly that he would trade away river tiles for tundra tiles.
Did work out pretty well though. Also the dity A.I. looks pretty cirppled in this game. GK and SB are nelow him in score after only 1 hour of gameplay. Indeed interesting since i moved to the south to create a Bureaucracy capital with more rivertiles later.

Also compared to Pangaeas attempt the floodplains to the south have been ignored by the A.I. for a very long time. Looks like lets play deity 41 will be another cuirassier stomp.