Praets At Deity at Normal Speed

[Dirk1302]

By forum, do you mean the whole civ4 forum? I think SGOTM and XOTM games are quite honorable though...

I mean Strategy and tips forum. There's more and more emphasis on winning extremely early with an UU or HA rush on here, playing out a whole game is not seen that often nowadays. I can't talk about SGOTM and XOTM games as i don't know these forums well enough.

 

[Dirk1302]

No kidding ~~
When/if i check the time of my "private" games it is usually...4h played, maybe 5 or sometimes 6...when i look at the forum games where i spend half the time thinking what i should write and where to take screenies...your Justi game ended up as 16h i think

Yes you're quite right, mine ended 225 BC with promise for another update which never came.... But well i have updated the thread with the save at least right now.

@Will, obs,TMIT. Thx for defense, it's not as if my aim is to annoy people from the start, i hope to give some insight in my posts about what my idea about good play is. I can be critical doing this and not everyone has to agree with me but to begin a post with "frustated" and going on in that vein is relatively new here on the forum for me anyway. I would never argue a point in this way myself and if this becomes the way we're discussing things i'll surely lose interest in the whole thing.

 

[Seraiel]

BTW, dirk has trounced some very difficult games over the years with crummy leaders. It's not like he can't lose but he doesn't need the crutches of cooked games like some of us (me included, if I'm not busy cheese weaseling ).

Two Questions:

When were these games won and with what score?

Are they part of HoF, so is it made sure that they were played without Worldbuilder, Save/Loading, whatever.

@Seraiel, I don't see where the "frustated" line is coming from. Are we having a real discussion here or not?

Just to remind you:

"Sometimes i doubt this forum is about real civ anymore, more and more it's about rolling, rerolling, early strike units, winning before currency, if not give up try another. Pathetic."

Doesn't that sound frustrated? Btw, editing your post after people have already answered to it, and changing the direction totally in behind, isn't that too cheesy for someone refusing cheese?

Further do i need to take you seriously? I have tried out almost every leader on deity and i don't lose that often (though it does happen from time to time), why do you suggest i do?

Well, you sound frustrated. It must come from somewhere. In addition you say "tried out", that doesn't sound like "I won regularly". And let me ask you the same question, do I have to take you serious, always challenging me to play with your settings? Play with mine, you suppose to be the ueberpro.

You're of course right that you have much to learn. Then again you're wrong that huge and many leaders make it difficult, it makes it easier for human players because they have more trade/diplo leverage.

Arrogance and fear. If it's so easy to play against 17 Civs, play a game against them or if you have already, just give me the link and I will follow it. Diplo especially is way more difficult with 17 Civs than with 4-5, I can judge that from having seen Absolte Zero faceroll Diplo in a game against few opponents on a normal map. What makes games against 17 AI's easier is only the fact, that the AI's have less land to expand as it splits amongst them, Diplo is horrible with having like 1-3 Civs asking for this and that every round.

I'm not claiming that i alone can judge what "real civ" is about. But what you're doing and what you're suggesting in the last 4 lines in your post just confirms what i already know.You take a skewed start, everything in your favor but yes it's deity level. Well That is not deity level, as i said before. Take an average start with Toku lose it as i'm sure you will and see if better players can win it.

Again, arrogance and fear. I play less then 3 months of Civ, and already score higher than you, beat me if you can, quit talking. And tell me where a no Food start is in my favor, I'd really like to know that from you.

If you can do all that then win an AW game on deity, then we're really talking. But more realistically just try to win Toku on immortal normal speed. If you can't do that don't bother me any longer with this sort of babble.

I don't even play the game long enough to know what AW is, but you challenging me over and over, you must be really desperate. Again, YOU claim to be the ueberpro, stop challenging me to play your settings, play mine, containing BUFFY and legit HoF play and scoring regularly over 1M.

...

Btw, Mylene: My first game on Huge / Marathon took me over 200h, but I've become faster since that Finished the last game in about 50h, I still don't know why people prefer faster games, imho they're simply over too soon!

 

[Manco Capac]

I mean Strategy and tips forum. There's more and more emphasis on winning extremely early with an UU or HA rush on here, playing out a whole game is not seen that often nowadays. I can't talk about SGOTM and XOTM games as i don't know these forums well enough.

But is it bad to try to win early under condition all settings are random?
Like play the map and the leader but in a optimal way.
Anyways, I am getting the point of why early rushes are overrated (especially on deity normal speed) as I tried and found out on those settings it was far less efficient than prepare your economy then you can attempt something else like crushing your neighbour as one has solid economic back.
AbsoluteZero is often aiming early rushes, thus is he getting the wrong way about invested /profit through war for instance?

Now, I also understand the point of view against cooked starts and games, so I dismiss those types of game (HoF games included yes. ), but SGOTM and XOTM games made by a mapmaker and people enters in competition to lay out the best strat. to win early.

I really wish to have your opinion on it. And I really believe your competence to answer right about it. (I have read many past threads from you, Rusten, Obsolete(although pictures are gone), ABCF, DR Kossin, etc.)

Deity sure is mind-boggling for me atm...as it gainsays many strats IMM and below.
Also, AbsoluteZero, once, mentioned deity level is often the same early pattern being a very restrictive level...is he right?

Anyways, sorry for this off-topic question, but since you are here, I may ask them.

Thanks.

 

[yatta77]

There's more and more emphasis on winning extremely early with an UU or HA rush on here, playing out a whole game is not seen that often nowadays.

Seems like to me too that the tendency is to rank players in hierarchy skill-wise based on finish date.

The last SGOTM we played, our Team was able to, in 300 turns:
- be first in score and have 50 cities (the first AI rival had 13)
- win Diplo
- be in a position to win Conquest (with a tedious war)
- be in a position to win Domination (with a tedious war)
- be in a position to win Space Race (with some war to tech leader AI)
- likely be able to win Culture before the end of the 500 turns.

We, especially speaking about my teammates, showed also a good basic knowledge of game mechanics I believe.

However we got a lot of criticism for delaying a bit a risky HAs rush in order to develop a bit more, and also for not fast bulbing up to MT when we instead settle in the capital most of our GPs.

I'm not saying that game was perfect, neither that we are master, however still one of the games I played (sharing it with the Team) I'm mostly satisfied about. No matter playing an all-in "trick" game on the same map I could likely date-wise win earlier.

So, thanks for pointing out this, it makes me feel less "alien".

Cheers! And Best Wishes to all the community.

yatta, back on lurking mode.

post #979

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Even I had to rise from the dead here.

Seraiel, there's a really nifty feature of vbulletin that's called find more {posts,threads} by $USER. You should try it sometime and when you do, you might feel just a little less confident flaming members with a history of excelence.

MarigoldRain, until you show us what you mean, you'll just remind us of things like this, this, this, this and this that were much funnier than the stuff you've been posting. If you're serious, I'd like to see examples. If you're just having a blast, I suggest you study troytheface's example in order to improve your skills.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Yatta, That seems to be the tendency indeed. I never found that too interesting, i am always more interested in maps that are so difficult that the question is "Can we win it at all, if so how?".Actually if i'm winning a tough map i like to prolong by not taking vassals but conquering all, building up a big lead and then taking the rest out.

@Sera, win that Toku game on immortal (no 3 goldmines in bfc or that sort of cheese please). As i said before we're done before you do that. Actually glancing over your post we're done anyway as far as i'm concerned.

@Tax, no that is not wrong, my first comment was about that 3 gold mine example you linked . How is it possible that only one player won that map? It's extremely easy, probably even easier if you go math ->construction from the start and trade for IW, i didn't and i did many other things wrong rushing in with some praets early without thinking any further but even then i felt i was fine 600 BC could have been much better with more care taken.

So i'm not saying Az is wrong about early rushes just keep in mind AZ is trying to show different ways to play. If he shows a knight rush on a deity map with a good start then that's interesting to see. But good chance that map could also have been won with a curi rush.

A good example is my Justin game. I and one or 2 others went elepult which is reasonable and kind of exciting on that map, Burn went HA which is even more exciting. Mylene did the standard route to lib and then Curi rush resulting in 1520 AD domination (iirc). Now maybe that date can still be topped but it won't be that easy.

 

[Manco Capac]

@Tax, no that is not wrong, my first comment was about that 3 gold mine example you linked . How is it possible that only one player won that map? It's extremely easy, probably even easier if you go math ->construction from the start and trade for IW, i didn't and i did many other things wrong rushing in with some praets early without thinking any further but even then i felt i was fine 600 BC could have been much better with more care taken.

That map wasn't mine, same for others. It is personally rolled.

Anyways, let's forget that example; its purpose was simply to show with only praets, it is outstandingly hard to stomp the world on normal deity...even with a HoF start.
Thus, with generalized type of map, then it is far harder unless there is a cute quirk happening at the right moment.

I did have success in my first AI opponent with only praets, then the later became infernal when they entered medieval ages...

Normal speed is not comparable to marathon speed where a military tech lead gained by early golds tiles can last far longer than a m. tech lead on normal speed.

 

[Seraiel]

Even I had to rise from the dead here.
Seraiel, there's a really nifty feature of vbulletin that's called find more {posts,threads} by $USER. You should try it sometime and when you do, you might feel just a little less confident flaming members with a history of excelence.

Just did so. All I found were games that could possibly have been played with reloading, worldbuilder knowledge or multiple attempts on the same map. I don't know, why I should feel less confident right now. Your argument is the same as Obsolete's, always pointing out authority, but I don't listen to that, only authority I listen to is myself or the one of my mates, not the one of people who don't even know me. Marigold has always been someone helping me get better, and his advice has always been worthful, from Dirk I've heard nothing but "play with normal settings".

@Sera, win that Toku game on immortal (no 3 goldmines in bfc or that sort of cheese please). As i said before we're done before you do that. Actually glancing over your post we're done anyway as far as i'm concerned.

Let's just call it done here, I don't need your ratification. I will post that Toku game, if you post a Deity 1M Domination game that's listed in HoF without the use of Sushi on a Huge map, and that's a promise I'll keep, you can nail me down on that. Just think of how confirmative this would be for you.

Back to playing now, entertainment here was great, but hearing the same thing triple and having to answer to that, becomes boring after a while.

 

[obsolete]

Your argument is the same as Obsolete's, always pointing out authority, but I don't listen to that, only authority I listen to is myself-

Yes, that seems to be how it always is with the NEW guys around here.

The smartest deity players can all hold hands and agree on what the best strategy/element is, but it don't make a damn difference. Because for every deity player there is 1000+ noble players. And when looking at that many noble players, they ALL CAN'T BE WRONG! So therefore all the deity players logically must be wrong.

After all, using modern democratic voting systems, even the village idiot's ballot counts as the same value as the Ph.D who lives next door. It's a case of numbers you see...not authority.

 

[Archbob]

If you continue to re-roll the map until you get like 4 gold and corn/clam and a cow for your start, that brings a deity game down quite a few notches(more on the level of emperor and also playing huge/marathon makes the game easier than standard/normal speed) from a real diety game. I usually don't play the same map twice and I'll generally only re-roll if I start on the tundra or if I'm trying to win via a special condition(like peaceful domination).

 

[Rusten]

 

[vranasm]

AbsoluteZero is often aiming early rushes, thus is he getting the wrong way about invested /profit through war for instance?

I feel there is a misconception here... AZ really loves the rushes, but after building up economy. he even mentions it somewhere.
Even with HC he choked and captured after he had alpha or something.

I watched already ton of AZ stuff and didn't see him doing classic rush (by that I understand building up chariots and clear wipe AI at 1800 BC), his early warfare is usually timed so he can either
1) self tech currency from capture gold
2) has already currency

I remember he mentions regularly that good attack date on Deity is around 500 BC, where should be AI's expansion close to halt (and switching into military expansion) and of course somewhere around there the best AI's can get Feud the earliest.

 

[krikav]

MarigoldRain, until you show us what you mean, you'll just remind us of things like this, this, this, this and this that were much funnier than the stuff you've been posting. If you're serious, I'd like to see examples. If you're just having a blast, I suggest you study troytheface's example in order to improve your skills.

I had not seen troythefaces's guides.
Most entertaining stuff I have seen in a long time! Thanks alot for sharing.

 

[ahcos]

always pointing out authority, but I don't listen to that, only authority I listen to is myself or the one of my mates

They're not being ignorant and claiming authority, they're asking for a common discussion base. When you're asking players to play marathon/huge, it's like:

"Okay, so you can run 10 kilometers. But i can run 3 kilometers with poop in my pants! Do that before talking to me! Why do i have to run 10 kilometers, and you don't have to run the 3 kilometers pooped? Not fair!"

As it was said before several times, huge/marathon is an huge poop in the pants marathon because of the incredible turn length and the eternity it takes for the game to make significant progress. On top, you want 1M+ HoF scores, which will require reloads for good starts AND cheezy leadersettings ... how much more boring could it be?
If you're confident about yourself, do the first move and do the Deity win under normal settings as it will require you 1/4 of the time it'd take for Dirk to play your settings.
Even if you see them refering to authority, you won't break that authority by just talking and behaving childish.

And btw, accusing someone of reloading/worldbuildering in forum games is like calling them a cheater in every other online game, so you either have very good proof or make yourself accusable for defamation. I'm sure you won't care, but if so don't be too surprised if everyone laughs in your face.

@topic: i've made some very rough experiences with Praets @ Deity, so i'm not too convinced that they're viable on normal settings. Pretty much made the same experience like everyone else: it can work out, but it's not very safe or constant. I prefer to play the romans slightly different anyway because i like their traits: oracle with Augustus, heavy REX with Julius. But i'll follow the example games with interest. Personally, i don't have the time to finish a single Civ4 game right now and just spamming the forums My own Deityphant game i started on the forum is still unfinished ...

 

[ecuwins]

This "guide" is worthless without an actual demonstration.

Side note - To plz take this HoF gibberish to the HoF forum, kthxbai.

 

[The Oz-Man]

That is one of the most involved poop analogies I've ever seen on a forum.

I don't have much to add as a lowly Prince player, but even I bring siege along at a certain point. The idea that the AI is going to throw units at forest-covered Praets is kind of hilarious; what they seem much more likely to do is turtle up and build tons of longbows and xbows as garrisons. How uber are uber-Praets going to be when they try to hack through that mess? Am I just missing a thing where the Deity AI is much more likely to build huge stacks at the expense of garrisons?

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Ignorant Teacher- you've motivated me to change my signature.

 

[Archbob]

I'm turning off tech trades and vassal states and see how it goes.

Dude, turning off tech trades is basically cheating. Also, if you have to regen the map 9-10 times to make a strategy work, its a crappy strategy. It means you would have lost 90% of the time.

 

[K.Murx]

And another downtrodden peasant, err, emperor raises his voice

What's up with that score fixation of yours, Seraiel? Score is calculated in a rather... useless way. It is in absolutely no way an indicative of skill or anything else. It is indicative of your population and finish date - which, obviously, depend on the map, opponents, leader, etc.