Pre-SINES V-Ruleset, map, and stats

[silver 2039]

@das The Knights of the Nile are the guys in Ceylon right? They never changed their name or something?

Silver wanted trade centres in blue, industrials in red, dunno why.

I have strange color associations.

Second Malinese Empire, Egypt, Ethiopia, Nguni Empire, Rozwi Empire, Fur, and Orange State?

You're missing one. There are 8 nations in Africa.

I can make some stats, I have hours of Free time available. Just tell me which nations you want.

Uhmm....I'll tell you what. You try and make stats for say...Oklahoma and I'll tell you how it is.

 

[das]

As such, are there any other independent African states beyond the following: Second Malinese Empire, Egypt, Ethiopia, Nguni Empire, Rozwi Empire, Fur, and Orange State?

Orange what-now? And you missed Asante and Kanem (both in West Africa).

1) From which real-life empire did this current one spring? Or are the origins of the nation more complicated?

Heh, a little of both. The (First, and historical) Malinese Empire has fared better than in OTL, nipping Songhay in the bud (mainly an unabashed butterfly effect, but there were also all kinds of fluctuations in the trade network that ultimately came to favour Mali more than in OTL). It eventually stagnated and fell apart into warring states, some of which were also overwhelmed by barbarians (17th century). Eventually, one barbarian (specifically, Bambara) warlord was able to reconquer the imperial core, skillfully applying what European technology, tactics and military advisers he was able to procure thanks to his ties with Portugal. Eventually, his successors officially restored the Malinese Empire, claiming descent from the first one (and by then, they were indeed assimilated enough). Note that by now that dynasty had lost power, and a new one has arisen from the traditional Mandinka aristocracy; it was a fairly smooth transition, though, in part thanks to the intermarriage.

2) Why is it still independent? Who or what has assisted it in retaining its independence?

Well, part of the reason is that it's too big and too far inland; conquering it would be very expensive. Also, note that Africa in general has been paid much less attention by the European powers than in OTL at this period; most powers tend to have many other concerns. That said, it has also been a traditional ally of Portugal (though by now, Portuguese economic colonialism has become a concern), and it is relatively modern for a native African state (which still isn't all that much, but makes it somewhat more challenging for any invaders).

3) How much and in what areas has it embraced modern technology? Who has been supplying said technology, if anyone?

I think I already answered that accidentally. It has mainly embraced military technology, though some other elements have been integrated as well, though not as much (efforts at industrialisation have been ongoing for the last decade, but without much success). And, ofcourse, the main supplier is Portugal.

1. How is the current army composed and how modernized (and large) is it?

It is a large modern standing army. Most of it is infantry, but both cavalry and artillery are present in major amounts as well.

2. How is the current navy composed and how modernized (and large) is it?

It is a medium-sized fleet with several Battleships, and most late 19th century ship classes below that represented as well. It is mostly modern.

3. Is the racial makeup homogenous, mixed into three or four main parts, or a serious melting pot?

I'm not sure if the racial, rather than ethnic, makeup is a very big matter here. As to the ethnic makeup, it is mainly homogeneous, except in the eastern half, and especially the south-east. In the east we have a considerable Buddhist Tartar minority, and in the southeast we have lots and lots of different Muslim North Caucasian ethnicities, though by now the Slavic colonists have become something like a third of the local population. It is unlikely that they would outnumber the locals any time soon, though. Lastly, there are Wallachians, Hungarians and Poles in the far west. Most other minorities are more or less assimilated, with the obvious exception of the Omnipresent Ones in most large cities, especially Odessa and Theodosia (in Crimea).

4. I think this might have been answered but I can't find it...what is the predominant religion?

Non-Uniate Orthodox Christianity, which is as of now headed by the Patriarch of Kiev. Georgia is the only other state with Non-Uniate Orthodox Christianity as its official religion, but most of Bulgaria is Non-Uniate as well, and most every OTL Orthodox regions may be assumed to contain at least some Non-Uniate communities.

5. Who is the current ruler?

I believe I already said that this should probably be left to the players.

@das The Knights of the Nile are the guys in Ceylon right? They never changed their name or something?

Yes. By now the Nile has attained a great symbolic value for the knightly order.

 

[Fuschia]

Second Malinese Empire
Capital: Ka-ba
Ruler:
Government: Monarchy (Incompetent)
Culture: The Second Malinese Empire is a collection of tribes with weak cultural associations, especially further inland. The Malinese themselves are not a majority of the population but, rather, a large plurality.
Technology level: Pre-Industrial, modern military.
Technology description: Mali has yet to embrace modern technology, with the notable exception of its military.
Army: 10 infantry, 4 cavalry
Army Level: 3
Army Description: Professional standing army; mostly infantry with notably cavalry and camelry corps.
Navy: 1 squadron
Navy level: 1
Navy Description: A small number of boats created to guard the Malinese's simple merchant vessels.
Air force: None
Air force level: None
Air force description: None
Military Upkeep: 1
Economy (Base/Trade/Total/Banked): 1/2/3/0
Land Area: 4
Infrastructure: Tolerable
Population Level: 2
Education: Illiterate
Living Standards: Low
Confidence: Barely Tolerating
Projects: None
Colonies (Income/Population/Militia/Loyalty): None
Nation Background: The Second Malinese Empire was created after the collapse of the First Malinese Empire in the late 17th Century. Eventually, outside forces destroyed the successor states of the First Malinese Empire and a single warlord regained control of the entirety of the First Malinese Empire's territory and proclaimed the Second Malinese Empire. A quick and seamless transition back to rule by the traditional Mandinka aristocracy took place recently. The continued independence of the Second Malinese Empire in this period of colonization is ensured by the difficulty in occupying it and the assistance of Portugal in modernizing its military and expanding trade.


Hopefully Das can provide some critique and a ruler for this draft. Most importantly, I am not sure what the status of their navy would be, if they have one, and whether or not their infrastructure should be higher is an important concern as well.

Orange what-now? And you missed Asante and Kanem (both in West Africa).

I would assume the Orange State, listed in Silver's nation list, would be in Africa, but I seem to have assumed wrong.

 

[das]

With regards to stats: firstly, I think I already explained my policy with regards to rulers. It is probably valuable to point out that their government is best described as a combination of a (primitive) parliamentary monarchy and a tribal confederacy. Their cavalry is stronger than implied, and there is also a noteworthy camelry corps. The navy seems right enough; infrastructure is probably one level higher.

A quick and seamless transition back to rule by the traditional Mandinka aristocracy took place shortly after its creation.

Not "shortly" - the state was reunited in the early 19th century, while the Mandinka aristocracy reclaimed power less than two decades ago.

I would assume the Orange State, listed in Silver's nation list, would be in Africa, but I seem to have assumed wrong.

Problematically, there is no such thing.

 

[silver 2039]

I would assume the Orange State, listed in Silver's nation list, would be in Africa, but I seem to have assumed wrong.

I blame Disenfranchised.

 

[Fuschia]

Okay. I made the suggested changes to the Second Malinese Empire stats and will leave them alone until I can get more of a reference point from other stats later on. For now, on to Ethiopia. And some more questions for Das, of course.

1) How has a stronger Egypt and a lack of strong colonization nearby impacted Ethiopia? Is it much the same as it was in real life, or has it changed significantly?

2) How modernized is Ethiopia, and in what areas are they most modern?

3) How are Ethipian-Egyptian relations?

4) How does Ethiopia feel towards the Portuguese, as they are the only nation with nearby colonial possessions?

EDIT: Some additional questions for Das to help in my decision as to which nation I want to reserve.

1) What are the current relations between Portugal and Japan?

2) How different is Siam from how it was in real life?

3) How powerful is Egypt, and how did it manage to get control of its territories in the Middle East? Any other important differences beyond those related to the above question?

 

[das]

1) How has a stronger Egypt and a lack of strong colonization nearby impacted Ethiopia? Is it much the same as it was in real life, or has it changed significantly?

Significantly changed - it has been in significantly greater contact with the European civilisation for much longer than in OTL. It is in union with the Roman Catholic Church (and has been for centuries), and has been an important ally of Venice and Egypt during the spread of the Crusades into the Indian Ocean (14th-16th centuries, basically). By the 17th century it has decisively defeated its Islamic enemies and entered a veritable golden age, absorbing many Catholic cultural elements as well as much European technology. It also managed to prosper economically from the trade that goes through the Red Sea - even moreso after the construction of the Canal. It has been somewhat stagnant as of late, and not too fast at absorbing the newest technological developments, but it still is very advanced by African standards.

2) How modernized is Ethiopia, and in what areas are they most modern?

It is lagging behind now, but not by too much (compare with the better parts of late 19th century Ottoman Empire, only not nearly as inefficient). Military technology is a must-have, but there has been some (more successful) industrial development as well.

3) How are Ethipian-Egyptian relations?

Traditionally very good, but declining now.

4) How does Ethiopia feel towards the Portuguese, as they are the only nation with nearby colonial possessions?

Traditional and standing trade partners. Also, as of now Ethiopia is moving away from the Egyptian sphere influence into the Portuguese one.

Technically, Egypt has colonies close by too.

 

[Fuschia]

After much consideration, I hereby reserve Egypt. Stats for Ethiopia should be in late tomorrow if I have time. Also, some questions to Das about Egypt, purely for my own benefit.

1) Somehow I get the feeling that Egypt happens to be Christian. Why?

2) Moving from my predicted answer to the first question, did Egypt gain its territory in the Middle East during the Crusades?

3) Is the nation that controls the interior of the Arabian Peninsula still Muslim?

 

[sp1023]

Uhmm....I'll tell you what. You try and make stats for say...Oklahoma and I'll tell you how it is.

Do you have any background on the Oklahomans? Like, should they be rich, focused on their military, ingenious with Private enterprise, crop based, Conservatives, Liberals, etc.

 

[a_propagandist]

Capital is Sydney, modernly.

Actually, it's Canberra.

Requesting Xin Ming China. What help do you want?

 

[sp1023]

No, like in terms of social significance, port, tech front, opera house, etc.

 

[Thlayli]

This whole process of collective stat creation is very...weird.

Nation descriptions I can see, but having the players make the stats of the countries they're planning on eventually playing just doesn't make logical sense to me.

EDIT: Sp, by those standards New York is the capital of America.

 

[silver 2039]

This whole process of collective stat creation is very...weird.

Silence capitalist pig-dog!

Nation descriptions I can see, but having the players make the stats of the countries they're planning on eventually playing just doesn't make logical sense to me.

I can always fix any biases.

Requesting Xin Ming China. What help do you want?

Stats for the mid-east would be nice.

 

[das]

1) What are the current relations between Portugal and Japan?

Utterly horrible. The Japanese are massacring Christian converts and missionaries and putting as many limits on European trade as possible; the Portuguese keep trying to supplant the Japanese in their provinces economically and ally with local crime rings.

2) How different is Siam from how it was in real life?

Compared to most other countries, it is quite similar, a higher percentage of Christians, a different dynasty and an agreement with Portugal put aside. Oh, and also Siam has been expanding quite ruthlessly in the last few decades. You could say that it is much more independent in its foreign policy than in OTL.

1) Somehow I get the feeling that Egypt happens to be Christian. Why?

Because I've implied as much on many previous occasions, I guess. Can't you sort out your own feelings by yourself?

Anyway, yes, it got conquered by crusaders, due to the Fatimids holding out for longer than in OTL but also becoming more stagnant than ever and eventually falling apart impressively when invaded by Norman and other European nobles in alliance with Venice in the 12th century.

2) Moving from my predicted answer to the first question, did Egypt gain its territory in the Middle East during the Crusades?

No; and actually, the Kingdom of Jerusalem was the predominant Crusader state in the first two centuries after these were carved out of the central regions of the shattered Dar al-Islam. As the Kingdom of Egypt consolidated, took definite shape and survived some early crises, though, the balance of power began to shift in its favour. After the Levantine Crusaders were weakened first by the Il-Khanate and then by the Turko-Arabic Tutushid Empire over the 14th-15th centuries, the Egyptians were able to more or less peacefully integrate most Crusader states, and later razed Edessa (which became the rallying point for the enemies of the Alexandrian Crown). Then again, that went on in the midst of a second wave of Crusades aimed against the Tutushids and other new Islamic enemies, so what you said partly applies.

3) Is the nation that controls the interior of the Arabian Peninsula still Muslim?

It is called the Jadfdid Caliphate, and its rulers are officially committed to restoring and maintaining the complete purity of Islam. It may be assumed to be Taoist.

 

[Dachs]

It is called the Jadfdid Caliphate, and its rulers are officially committed to restoring and maintaining the complete purity of Islam. It may be assumed to be Taoist.

1) "dfd"? How the hell are people supposed to pronounce that?
2) Taoist Muslims. Wow.

I'm a bit lazy to do much of anything, but I suppose I can fill in a few nation stats. D'you need more help in the Middle East, silver, or should I do someplace else?

 

[silver 2039]

I'm a bit lazy to do much of anything, but I suppose I can fill in a few nation stats. D'you need more help in the Middle East, silver, or should I do someplace else?

Europe is important and no one's done anything there yet, so perhaps you can try your hand with that.

 

[Supermath]

1) "dfd"? How the hell are people supposed to pronounce that?

Heck, how do you pronounce "Republika Srpska"?

 

[das]

1) "dfd"? How the hell are people supposed to pronounce that?

I say it just fine.

2) Taoist Muslims. Wow.

Didn't Frank Herbert have Buddhist Muslims (okay, Zen-Sunnis, to be exact)?

 

[Symphony D.]

Didn't Frank Herbert have Buddhist Muslims (okay, Zen-Sunnis, to be exact)?

Intrude: Among other weird things like shape-shifting Muslim Mayans and Space Zion, yes.

 

[Dachs]

I say it just fine.

Fine, fine, whatever.

A bunch of questions about the HRE, in which I have substantial interest in playing and for which I will be making stats:

-Is that capital Würzburg? ...and if not, what the devil is it, Schweinfurt?
-The rulers are of the House of Leiningen, correct?
-When'd they put in the Kiel Canal, and why?
-Would you mind doing a brief recap of the HRE's history (emphasis on political natch) from the divergence? (I know some of the basics, mostly centering on Alexander's war of conquest, and I remember stuff from the two question sessions in the Alternate History threads, but much of the earlier part of the second millennium is still blank.) Sort of like what you did with Azale and Chernigov.
-What's the HRE's political structure, i.e. how decentralized (anything like the old Circles?), is the succession officially hereditary or elective, that sort of thing.
-What cultural minorities exist within the HRE, where, what religions do they follow, and how well have they been assimilated?
-Are there any irredentist claims that the HRE has or particular rivalries with other powers?
-How did the colonization of the Orinoco territory (and Belize, I guess, but that's not as important) happen - how did the HRE acquire it, what are the social strata in the colony, how profitable is it, and how stable is the political situation there (any independence movements or native problems?)?
-What major economic concerns does the HRE have in other countries, what countries, and of what import to the economy?
-What are the status of those Hungarian, Illyrian, and Polish states and their relations to the HRE - puppets or something?
-Why didn't the Swiss ever pop up (or if they did, why were they reabsorbed into the HRE)?
-How well militarized is the HRE (i.e. size of army per capita and how well it has performed in recent years), how modern is their amry, and who controls it within the political structure of the empire?
-How about their navy - has it been fairly well developed and modernized, what is its size, and who has control of the navy?
-Are the colonies and outposts in Africa and South America primarily military outposts for use by the navy, trade posts, or some other form of colony (see the previous discussion on colonies in a certain other thread)?
-What events have happened most recently in the HRE - any political shocks or anarchism or conflicts with other countries?
-Do socialist or communist (or Egalitist ) groups exist within the HRE, and how are they treated by the government and the populace at large?