Preliminary Dural Ideas

[deadliver]

I was kind of a rat b*&(!ADS in the undeveloped civilizations thread so I decided to start up a Dural game and try to get through as much of it as I can so that I can better contribute my ideas to improving them.

As a civilization they should have their own thread discussing what can be done to improve this unique civ's qualities.

Right off the bat I think that the Dural should have a special promotion that improves their units at the expense of increase hammer cost. This promotion (Quality?), or maybe even civilization trait, would represent the Dural's approach to training and equipping their armies. On one hand they are superb fighters with fine equipment, on the other these quality soldiers take extra time to train.

I will add more ideas as I play the game.

EDIT: Instead of a starting promotion, how about giving the Dural access to fine quality equipment without having to build the prerequisite building? Still tie the availability to technology discovery though?

 

[xienwolf]

I think it was Vehem who had asked me to add it, and probably right when I joined him working on FF, but I have a note buried deep in my list of things to do which requests that buildings be allowed to modify unit construction costs situationally. That is, allow us to create a building which provides all Melee Units with Combat 1 when they are built in this city, but also makes them all cost 10 more. Or a building which grants all UnitCombat_Recon units 5 XP, but makes them cost 10% more . This would allow a very nice feel of "We train longer" in cities.

 

[deadliver]

Xienwolf,

I world-buildered in the master crafter buildings (fletcher, smith, outfitter) and found that while there is an advantage to having the buildings, it can be expensive to outfit every single unit with all the gear. (scouts cost a bundle fully outfitted). I think that if the Dural can outfit their units with this gear, from the get go w/o needing to build these crafters that it could be a nice little advantage. Of course they probably should not actually gain any benefits from the actual buildings beyond the outfitting ability (i.e to gain the gold and cultuer and GPP they would still have to build them using an engineer to get the first one etc).

 

[deadliver]

Okay. I am convinced now that giving the Dural the ability to outfit their troops with upgraded gear w/o the buildings is a good idea. I also think that they should build troops slower but gain a free promotion when done so. This should be linked to the training buildings.

I was also thinking about the Dural in terms of diplomacy. Should they gain a grace bonus when dealing with leaders who care about that? Or should they gain a small diplomatic bonus just because they are Dural? No other civ gains something like this (cept Falamar with the *ladies*) and could be cool.

 

[Vehem]

I think it was Vehem who had asked me to add it, and probably right when I joined him working on FF, but I have a note buried deep in my list of things to do which requests that buildings be allowed to modify unit construction costs situationally. That is, allow us to create a building which provides all Melee Units with Combat 1 when they are built in this city, but also makes them all cost 10 more. Or a building which grants all UnitCombat_Recon units 5 XP, but makes them cost 10% more . This would allow a very nice feel of "We train longer" in cities.

Don't think that was one of mine - wasn't it part of an early discussion on the equipment mod? Having certain buildings providing basic equipment automatically at a small cost? It might even have been something else that I'd thought about, but I've forgotten the purpose now...

The Dural as a nation didn't consider warfare in any great detail until Karrlson took his tour, but his influence is covered by the Instructor CityBonus that he provides. I'm also looking at some better PassiveXP buildings for them, along with a rework of the statues.

====

The one I'm actually after in anycase for the Dural is a "local-specialist-yield/commerce change" field for the Buildings. There's a global one that is applied to the player (and hence to all cities), but not one that applies only to the city in which the building is created.

I did once have a go at doing the commerce side of that around the FF032 era (I was playing around with implementing Stewards of Inequity), but realized it was causing CtDs just before I was due for a release, so reverted those changes out. If I run out of other things to work on before Xienwolf is done with school/work for the year, I'll give it another shot (I've learnt a little at least since then...).

 

[deadliver]

Warfare is one thing. Having badass equipped warriors is another.

Making the Dural have specialists who provide extra bonuses only feeds into their equipment bonus...more commerce=more gold=upgraded eq (pedia)

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

i should think the dural would have a small, elite task force as an army (think the australian army) as opposed to masses of basic troops (think US army) perhaps their national units could be capped at a lower level and most other units could be national units at a certain number (except of course basic units) to compensate, the ability to outfit their troops with upgraded gear w/o the buildings, and increased EXP gain from passive training buildings.

i really like the idea of buildings increasing the yeild of specialists for that city alone too.

 

[Jabie]

You could reduce the cost of their overall army maintenance to reflect that their better supplies last longer and hence the army as a whole requires less upkeep.

Personally I still like the idea of letting their units perform worker builds, horsemen building pastures, Hunters building camps, melee line building roads and forts. This fits into their general vibe and can be implemented relatively smpily in XML.

 

[deadliver]

i should think the dural would have a small, elite task force as an army (think the australian army) as opposed to masses of basic troops (think US army) perhaps their national units could be capped at a lower level and most other units could be national units at a certain number (except of course basic units) to compensate, the ability to outfit their troops with upgraded gear w/o the buildings, and increased EXP gain from passive training buildings.

i really like the idea of buildings increasing the yeild of specialists for that city alone too.

Wow. EDIT: A long diatribe on how Psychic_Llamas comment about the Australian army and United States of America Army offended me.

I think that the Dural should simply be able to equip their units with the quality items available to civs that build the various master buildings (master fletcher, master outfitter etc).

No need to get insulting...oh I wish...

Smaller does not always mean better.

 

[civ_king]

they should get a 50% discount, to reflect they have nearly perfected it

 

[PPQ_Purple]

i should think the dural would have a small, elite task force as an army (think the australian army) as opposed to masses of basic troops (think US army)...

Personaly, I realy like this idea. Limiting the dural with numbers, but increasing eficiency of the units when they are there sounds weary fun.

A small yet elite force is always better than a large army of noobs (think 300, Wafen SS and the like). That, naturaly asuming that said small force can be in the right place in the right time. Othervise, you are done for. (a single smaller force of week units can easily clean out oposing elite units if these are misused.)

What I would love to see in the dural is a lot of specialised units. Or some way to specialise units extremely. That would actualy reflect the owerall perfectionism of the Dural. You could have the best City defence unit in the game, or the best Hills Defender, or the best Forest defender, but since they are all upgraded from a single unit type via promotions that cancel each other out, it would need forsight and specialisation and a lot of care. Pick corectly, and get the right unit in the right place and the enemy is doomed. Get it wrong and you don't stand a chance.

 

[WarKirby]

they should get a 50% discount, to reflect they have nearly perfected it

I agree with this.

I think allowing the promos without the buildings would be a bit odd. But dural should get them cheaper. And should have more opportunities for getting engineer specialists if they don't already.

It'd be nice for them to have some significant global bonus for engineer specialists, and settled GE's too

 

[Valkrionn]

Personaly, I realy like this idea. Limiting the dural with numbers, but increasing eficiency of the units when they are there sounds weary fun.

A small yet elite force is always better than a large army of noobs (think 300, Wafen SS and the like). That, naturaly asuming that said small force can be in the right place in the right time.

What I would love to see in the dural is a lot of specialised units. Or some way to specialise units extremely. That would actualy reflect the owerall perfectionism of the Dural. You could have the best City defence unit in the game, or the best Hills Defender, or the best Forest defender, but since they are all upgraded from a single unit type via promotions that cancel each other out, it would need forsight and specialisation and a lot of care. Pick corectly, and get the right unit in the right place and the enemy is doomed. Get it wrong and you don't stand a chance.

I wouldn't say a small elite force is always better... If it's situated so that it can face limited numbers of the enemy at a time, like the 3300 Hundred(300 Spartans, yes, but they had 3000 other Greeks with them...), then yes, they are almost always better.... until the enemy gets around them.

That said, I would love a system like that. I tend to play builder civs, and that would just reinforce the builder theme the Dural already have.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Wow. EDIT: A long diatribe on how Psychic_Llamas comment about the Australian army and United States of America Army offended me.

...

No need to get insulting...

wow i appologise if i offended you, it was purely an off hand comment and i have nothing against the US military, theyre great at what they do. i was merely commenting on how australias population is much smaller and so we have a smaller army and thus have to spend more resources on making sure we dont lose soldiers, that means more training etc etc. ill stop before i get flamed...once again no offence was intended :s if you feel like you want to debat about it you can PM me.

Smaller does not always mean better.

thats not what i was saying, i was saying the dural could be a specialist army with few elite units, as opposed to hordes of the same units...

 

[Tarquelne]

I think that if the Dural can outfit their units with this gear, from the get go w/o needing to build these crafters...

Giving free basic-level "Quality" Gear to Dural wouldn't be difficult. (IIRC.)

Another route could be giving another Dural UB the ability to get an Engineer. That'd make getting the Master buildings a lot easier.

But then your point about the gold-cost of the Gear comes into play. I don't think that could be handled via XML (without tiresome duplication of every Gear promo, that is) or python. But I think the discount-giving Trait is a nice idea.

I suspect that the best way to go, though, is via the mechanic Vehem mentions. Make the Dural earn their gold and Gear like everyone else... but better.

OTOH they could also get another piece or two of Dural-only Gear. And/or the current Gear (Caltrops and Pikes - apparently they don't like Horses) could be made cheaper.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

What I would love to see in the dural is a lot of specialised units. Or some way to specialise units extremely. That would actualy reflect the owerall perfectionism of the Dural.

i agree here

 

[Tarquelne]

it would need forsight and specialisation and a lot of care.

Odd. When I read that quickly what I see is "I think the AI should be doomed!"


Super-specialization is a neat idea, but I think it might be better reserved for a civ that's really *into* the military. The Bannor, maybe. Hmm... though it's not as extreme and has some drawbacks an expanded Gear system could offer specialization and would fit the Dural better IMO.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Odd. When I read that quickly what I see is "I think the AI should be doomed!"


Super-specialization is a neat idea, but I think it might be better reserved for a civ that's really *into* the military. The Bannor, maybe. Hmm... though it's not as extreme and has some drawbacks an expanded Gear system could offer specialization and would fit the Dural better IMO.

very very true

 

[Breez]

Giving free basic-level "Quality" Gear to Dural wouldn't be difficult. (IIRC.)

....

they could also get another piece or two of Dural-only Gear.

This is basically my take on it. A Dural UB that gives a basic level of the Equipment to all units built in that city. I would do 1 UB per type (melee, mounted, recon, archer) just like the equipment buildings are now.

That would give an advantage, yet give a reason for those buildings still i.e. further upgrades. That would give them an advantage early.

Add on a couple Dural specific pieces of gear to buy from them too to help out late.

Of course... if the Doviello get the ability to steal gear... this could come back to hurt them.

 

[Mylon]

I think it was Vehem who had asked me to add it, and probably right when I joined him working on FF, but I have a note buried deep in my list of things to do which requests that buildings be allowed to modify unit construction costs situationally. That is, allow us to create a building which provides all Melee Units with Combat 1 when they are built in this city, but also makes them all cost 10 more. Or a building which grants all UnitCombat_Recon units 5 XP, but makes them cost 10% more . This would allow a very nice feel of "We train longer" in cities.

Not a bad idea. The only thing I worry about with such an idea is cluttering the build list. In vanilla BTS, every building is helpful in some way shape or form. In this game, I rarely ever want to build gambling houses because later on, the maintenance increase costs more than the income from the building!

As for implementation, it shouldn't be too hard sticking to python and using the custom cost function.

On the other hand, we already have training yards which do the same thing. You build your unit, then sit in the training yard for what seems like 50 turns to get some extra XP. Maybe I could make a spell that more experienced units can cast that raises this cap and/or increases the gain.

What if their monument national wonders were designed to be, well, national effects? Some of them could provide a bonus to specialists. The most expensive might provide a free specialist in every city, etc.

So many ideas!