Prepare to cringe - bad maps (deity)

@krikav

Spoiler :

Thing is I actually tested whether my whole "bulb/trade your way into tech relevance" idea had some merit to it, and in that reality the various powers weren't that balanced. I don't remember the specifics, thank you heatwave, but IIRC America settled into Darius' face and cut him off from settling his fair share of land, and Gandhi turned into his usual missionary-spamming self so Freddy (primarily) could settle a few more cities. Don't recall if that meant he had 12 or 18 cities, though, but I also don't think he was done settling cities by the time I was done.

For what it's worth, it is definitely possible to tech trade your way into getting a slight tech lead over Monty, assuming he doesn't meet the other AIs and join in on the fun. Albeit at the cost of advancing all the other AIs a few hundred years, although undoubtedly there's better ways to do the trading than how I (mis)managed it.

 

Did you expand beyond the first hill city in your new try, Krikav?
I wonder if Monty is more likely to plot if he sees better targets than Prague (with an Archer sitting in there).
Will consider sending settlers towards some spots (double fish), but not found them until i reach friendly (unless Monty settlers show up).

 

I know that if you share a large enough cultural border (8 or 9 land tiles, was it?) you're considered a Land Target, which makes an AI more likely to plot on you. I'm not sure if it makes an AI more likely to plot, though, which matters in this case since

Spoiler :

Monty is effectively Semi-iso with you, and so far it seems like people haven't much cared for sending boats around to establish contact. So what does it matter whether he's more likely to plot on you? If he plots he literally only has one possible target.

 

@Fippy

Spoiler :

I hadn't thought about that at all, don't know the mechanics for when an AI start plotting, but having undefended flatland cities nearby might severely increase the odds for DoW.

I did settle the northern place quite early (fish/rice), had it as a gift settler but then Monty settled near the entrance and blocked of the southern land so I just settled it for myself instead. The southern place (on PH with fish in second ring) came much later, but still before friendly.

I didn't reach friendly until a few turns past 100 even with 3 gift cities (no demands where made, no religion autospread, he went poly so no monesteries...)

 

It is definitely not just distance, there are other factors.
For example, I can liberate this city

Spoiler :

Four turn later it can't be liberated! What's that about?

Spoiler :

 

I take it you used that Missionary to generate culture in that city for those four turns? If so I have to assume it's because of that, I'm not sure what else could have changed in those four turns.

 

(Liberate) is pretty simple.
If a new city is closer to an AI capital than the player capital, the player can (Liberate) it to that AI for +1.5 diplo points.
Diagonal is 1.5 tiles, and in the case of a tie I think it is considered closest to the player.

Anyway, at the start of the game a city that can be liberated to an AI will naturally have a popup after 1 turn to let you know an AI capital is nearby.

Spoiler :

Strategy
2 liberated cities for +3 diplomacy can be a crucial move when an AI has a large tech lead, and the player can afford to give away 200 if there is enough room to cram in 2 cities close to the AI capital.

Some have thought to use 3 city gifts and multiple DOW's to force the AI up a net +1.5 diplo each Cease Fire, but there are many flaws to doing it.
3 cities and 3 military units are an expensive investment.
Each DOW is -1 diplo with every AI pleased with the target AI.
Capturing the same 3 cities over and over causes a lot of war weariness to build up.
The AI freaks out and starts building military and stops teching so fast to deal with the situation.
All 3 cities have to be size 2 once to not automatically raze.
Open Borders and the 60 turns of peace bonus both vanish, and trade routes lose the +150% bonus.
Some AI take a few turns to talk peace even with 30 war success.

It is cheaper to use the AI's own cities to force them to Friendly, but the buildings have a 33% chance to be destroyed each time, the turns to come out of revolt resets each time, and the city loses 1 population each time.

Not something I do too often.
(Liberating) a city to an AI while at war with them is an exploit of course.

Culture
Once a city starts adding city culture, then the (Liberate) mechanics start changing in very weird ways!
@WastinTime is one of the only ones to try and puzzle it out.

This formula has problems during testing, but it feels close?
0 is supposed to act like 1 during the calculations, but they give different results.
I'll try to list out some distance values from a world builder game to hopefully get a correct formula.

Spoiler :

Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
So in case of a tie, (Liberate) is not an option any longer.

Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate) city to AI.

So OurDistance > HisDistance * Modifier?
If True, then (Liberate) is possible.

Just have to figure out the correct culture modifier.


Gift City has 1 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [19 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [18 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [17 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [16 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [15 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [14 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [13 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [12 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 2 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [12 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [11 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [10 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [9 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [8 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [7 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [6 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 3 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [6 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [5 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 4 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [21 TILES] -> AI Capital [3 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).


Inch the player capital 1 tile closer and run it again.


Gift City has 1 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [13 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [12 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 2 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [7 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [6 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 3 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [5 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 4 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [20 TILES] -> AI Capital [3 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).


So weird, the results are exactly the same even though the player capital was 1 tile closer.
1 more tile closer!


Gift City has 1 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [13 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [12 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 2 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [7 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [6 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 3 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [5 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Gift City has 4 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [4 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [19 TILES] -> AI Capital [3 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).

Still the same?
That can't be right.
So one more test.


Gift City has 1 for the human player:
Player Capital -> Gift City [18 TILES] -> AI Capital [20 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [18 TILES] -> AI Capital [13 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [18 TILES] -> AI Capital [12 TILES]; Result = Can't (Liberate).
Player Capital -> Gift City [18 TILES] -> AI Capital [11 TILES]; Result = Can (Liberate).


Ugh, can't see it. (The right math formula)
Did I mess up a test somewhere and get wrong data?

It seems like 0 has a 1 factor, 1 has a 1.5 factor, 2 has a 3 factor, 3 has a 4 factor, and 4 has a 5 factor.
But that is not quite right.

A gift city with 1 culture that is 21 tiles from the player capital will not (Liberate) unless the AI capital is 12 tiles or closer.
With a 1.5 factor, I would expect 13 tiles or closer.
Tested it twice.

I'll attach a test game so someone can play around with worldbuilder.

But wait, it gets even weirder!

If a city is across some water on an island or another landmass, the math changes again.

Yes, the distance to the gift city is considered Doubled if it is on another landmass from a capital.

But wait, it gets EVEN weirder!!!
Normally vassals can't be gifted cities, but it turns out you can still (Liberate) a city to a vassal.

In testing, I even (Liberated) a city that had 50,000 that was 5 tiles from my vassal.
But as soon as I un-vassaled them, the city could no longer be (Liberated)


I'll try some more tests to figure things out later.
I give up, my brains are mush.

 

This is weird, I was under impression that vassals don't take cities with less than 50% of their culture. But I rarely gave my cities away for purposes other than avoiding domination, so I wasn't paying much attention. It's religious games that brought me to it.

 

Just tested it, ties are indeed considered closer to the player. At least, a city equal distance between my capitol and an AI capitol wouldn't Liberate.

 

@Kaitzilla
Staring at the numbers and code snippet you provided, here's how it works (I think).
For each player we have int iCultureTimes100 = getCultureTimes100((PlayerTypes)iPlayer); which simply returns players culture multiplied by 100
Then whoever founded the city gets his/her culture multiplied by 1.5
and if one player is vassas to another the culture gets further modified by:
iCultureTimes100 *= 2;
iCultureTimes100 = (iCultureTimes100 + iTotalCultureTimes100) / 2;
I have no idea what that iTotalCulture above is, maybe combined culture of both players involved in current calculation?
Finally comparison value is get by:
int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance);
Where first part is bigger between 100 & iCultureTimes100 and second part is distance to capital or 1 (I guess this is for cases when there is no capital because total kill required option is checked).

Looking at numbers provided: at culture 0 the values for each player are simply 100/distance so with player distance 21 and AI 20 values are AI 5, player 4,76 which gets trunctuated to 4, AI wins and city can be liberated. If distances were player 22 and AI 21, both values should get trunctuated to 4 and city could not be liberated (can somebody check?)

If player has 1 culture, value is culture times100 times 1,5 (because he is the original owner), so 150/21=7,14 trunctuated to 7
and AI need to lower his distance to 12 to get 100/12=8,333 so that is trunctuated to 8.

For player distances between 21 to 19 and culture of 1 the result always get trunctuated to 7 so results do not change. For distance 18 result get trunctuated to 8 and AI needs further reduce distance to get result that gets trunctuated to next full integer so 100/11=9,09=>9

Somebody with more time than me and access to worldbuilder should test these.

 

Thanks guys for the great inputs on liberation mechanics. I have used it very often (most of the games) and it is one of the most valuable tools in consistent deity non deaths (and then wins). It is also useful on Pangaea maps, you can often put a cushion crappy city between you and a warmonger (gift it to peacemonger). The best way is to consult the peaceweights or just a current love hate situation. When a warmonger has the guy it hates as a land target as well, it is surely going to result in a war. When you are not the target of the first war, you can piggyback other AIs and take easy captures or simply neglect the wars and tech. Arguably, you could do it by bribing, but I hate bribing as it accelerates the tech pace of your future victims plus you can only do something well after the alphabet when it could be late. Since liberating is such a frequent weapon in my arsenal, I value IMP quite a lot in masochistic deity setting. Its diplo benefit is greater than SPI and you save so many early hammers on settlers. It is especially helpful on tough maps where you can't just capture everything, while totally irrelevant on lower difficulties or rich maps.

 

Whoa, looks like you solved it again Whisker!

====================================
Culture = 0 for player, 0 for AI.

Player founded the city, so 0 gets multiplied by 100, then multiplied by 1.5.
The number for iCultureTimes100 becomes 0.
Then int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance); happens.
The iValue for player = std::max(100, 0) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (100 / iCapitalDistance)
The iValue for the AI = std::max(100, 0) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (100 / iCapitalDistance)
If iValue for AI > iValue for player, the city can be (Liberated)
If iValue for AI < or = iValue for the player, the city can't be (Liberated)

====================================
Culture = 1 for player, 0 for AI.

Player founded the city, so 1 gets multiplied by 100, then multiplied by 1.5.
The number for iCultureTimes100 becomes 150.
Then int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance); happens.
The iValue for player = std::max(100, 150) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (150 / iCapitalDistance)
The iValue for the AI = std::max(100, 0) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (100 / iCapitalDistance)
If iValue for AI > iValue for player, the city can be (Liberated)
If iValue for AI < or = iValue for the player, the city can't be (Liberated)

====================================
Culture = 2 for player, 0 for AI.

Player founded the city, so 2 gets multiplied by 100, then multiplied by 1.5.
The number for iCultureTimes100 becomes 300.
Then int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance); happens.
The iValue for player = std::max(100, 300) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (300 / iCapitalDistance)
The iValue for the AI = std::max(100, 0) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (100 / iCapitalDistance)
If iValue for AI > iValue for player, the city can be (Liberated)
If iValue for AI < or = iValue for the player, the city can't be (Liberated)

====================================
Culture = 3 for player, 0 for AI.

Player founded the city, so 3 gets multiplied by 100, then multiplied by 1.5.
The number for iCultureTimes100 becomes 450.
Then int iValue = std::max(100, iCultureTimes100) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance); happens.
The iValue for player = std::max(100, 450) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (450 / iCapitalDistance)
The iValue for the AI = std::max(100, 0) / std::max(1, iCapitalDistance) = Floor (100 / iCapitalDistance)
If iValue for AI > iValue for player, the city can be (Liberated)
If iValue for AI < or = iValue for the player, the city can't be (Liberated)

If iCapitalDistance value ends in 0.5, round down.
If (Liberate) city is on a different continent/island than the capital, double the iCapitalDistance value.

====================================
You have successfully cracked the math formula to perfectly describe (Liberate), nice work!

I really like that 1.5 factor based on who founded the city, it was my main source of confusion.
I also like the multiplied by 100 culture operation, really fixes cities with 0.1 for integer operations.

I'm tempted to abuse (Liberate) now that I see how much city culture affects it.
Found 3 cities near my capital, give them to a Cultural Civ, let him build up culture 10 turns, then seize and liberate them over and over to get the AI to Friendly.


The math for the vassal (Liberate) still is not quite working right, but I barely collected any data, and the code is solid:

Yup, (Liberate) is a wonderful and expensive way to improve diplomacy.

The later the game gets, the less expensive it gets relatively speaking, but the less room there is to place (Liberate) cities.
Then again, that is what Razing is for!

*Razing a city to make room for (Liberate) cities costs -2 diplo*
**Autorazing a city costs -0 diplo weirdly enough**

 

Hiya guys, been on short holidays and will try to continue the very challenging Charly map later today ~~
Meanwhile i created a new map, this time without Buffy or any other mods (we can mix that up a bit). Just Bug.

Mao on Isolated (i thougt about that classic Iso map with him ):

Spoiler :

It's overall not that terrible, okay start as you can see. Some decent areas to work with.
However also some annoying ones, and commerce poor. Could enjoy or curse this one, who knows
AIs were left on random, no Mansa etc.
..and i forgot changing the name again lol, still Toku.

 

Game over for Charly, greed killed

Spoiler :

I could have waited with settling, but in such a bad shape either way.
Urgently wanted his forest chopped before culture expands, but he stole fish some turns later

Barb city which stole a good spot maybe made me feel so hopeless in the end.
I guess i see no real chance but rng luck with settling towards Monty, but maybe something could be done north.

 

Goodness, what a monster that Charly map turned out to be . This is looking less winnable than that cooked Prepare to DIE! Wang Kong map at this point.

Spoiler :

So what are the odds of getting contact with an AI before they get four cities and "gifting" them a city right in our ever-friendly neighbour's face? Pretty sure that, adding the Heather Religion penalty, Monty is going to be Annoyed if not Furious with everyone else on the board.

 

Yup, if i replayed i would go like this:

Spoiler :

No GLH, no looking at any spots west (not even 2x fish), just turning the hill city into a fortress (possible with protective i think, and he cannot pass), ignoring Monty relations, and hurrying & securing settling north (where my barb city was, and beyond).

 

@Fippy

Spoiler :

I did replay this before I went to vacay and managed to gift two cities by T80 and got Monty to friendly. Even one pop whipped settlers from the second city. And also got 6 cities on the mainland (including the capital). Good thing is that you dont need workers prior to IW, I had one or maybe two workers. In my game I managed to get to Lib around 275AD. Obviously, I had to get it early, and now I am at the crossroads thinking what is better, cannons or cavalry. There is plenty of food but a few cities. I am leaning to cannons plus grens anticipating quick rifles. No time to think about wonders. If I recall correctly, I can bulb Chemistry and have around 250bpt so Steel is not too far away. But I played this 10 days ago so maybe something is a bit off.

You already see that the other island is filled with competent techers.
I guess this was cooked to be 10/10 difficulty map. But I think Monty is not nearly as devastating as Shaka. Shaka can not be befriended and never wins the maps. His purpose is solely to mess the player up. With early dagger attack and then quick catapults. Also, Catherine is really a problem. Really good AI.

 

Spoiler :

The AIs were hand picked...at least I assume they were, it's been a while since I rolled this map, but aside from that this map is 100% uncooked . Didn't even swap AIs to put Monty on your continent, he was placed there with his mountains of commerce by the map generator. Rest assured that if the map was cooked I'd have made sure that Monty would actually work all the gold mines he has, because as is he doesn't settle a city to work his fourth one, even though he could claim a Fish with it. No, Monty won't bother until he's got every Plains Cow on lockdown. Silly AI .

As for why Monty over Shaka/Catherine? Going off of old memories here, but I assume because he's a crazy warmonger who'll try to found his own religion, meaning that's one less religion to divide the other continent, and a heathen religion that Monty (and you, most likely) will be running, meaning that trading with the other continent full of peaceful techers is made harder since you'll be a heathen to all of them. Admittedly I don't think that heathen religion penalty matters too much to the AIs on the other continent, nor the extra religion not on their side of the board, but I'm pretty sure I thought it di, so Monty it is.

Cathy I don't recognize as the AI that she is because she's the leader I usually play myself, so I very rarely play against her, for the record .

 

I really felt like my third peacemonger attempt was going to be the charm but.....

Spoiler :

Gandhi built the UN in 1200AD . Really caught me offguard. I had just checked like 2 turns earlier and the most advanced were on "can research: electricity". Some serious shenanigans. And ofc he goes right for the US vote. I had just begun fission too, so I was close to being able to weather this.

 

Found this monster in a random Shuffle game.
Temperate, normal sea level, semi-isolated, WvO

Spoiler The start :

Spoiler What makes it cringeworthy? :

Your usable land is on two opposite ends of a massive ice island. The sheep and crabs are this side's food.

Apologies, the save is BAT mod.