Prepare to cringe - bad maps (deity)

[krikav]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Ofcourse this requires map knowledge, but it's relatively easy to meet Mansa quite early, if we can rush a settler out early enough, it will be possible to gift Mansa a city on our home continent, that will ensure relatively safety from Monty for some time.

Usually with Monty, it's just to turtle up for a time and tech, he is very prone to fall behind and being easy to attack later on.
Here however, he has alot of gold mines and so abundant with floodplains that I don't see that as a viable plan...
Perhaps early sailing and just leave the island to him is a sane option.
I have only scouted abit with a workboat on Mansas/Fredrichs continent, but it looks like the land that is closest to us is relatively far away from them, and there might be some land that one could work with there...

If settling on the cow, you can settle another hill-city to work the westernmost clam.
It's also a fishcity settleable on a plainshill to the south-west.
With these three it might be possible to defend as we have protective archers and cheap walls...

 

[Fippy]

My attempt on Charly (part 1)

Spoiler :

 

[Fippy]

part 2

Spoiler :

I stop and reflect..
Failgold now? Yup
Good amount of cities? nopes
Monty friendly as Reli goes up? Yup
Fill out city spots around him? Sure, might as well die before that

 

[krikav]

@Fippy Isn't this a lovely map?

Spoiler :

Mad Monty does look happy, maybe he won't kill you after all?
Really nice to get demand for fishing!

I approve of GLH attempt, desperate situation and getting it would turn the tide.
Even if we estimate that the odds of getting it is at 10-20% it can probably be worth it.
Oh, and that barb city is likely to ruin traderoutes with Mansa, isn't it? Fun times!

For others making an attempt, I think it's wise to not gift him or trade away clams/etc, Monty is at 10/10 to demand tribute, so if you got a clam that he needs, there is a big chance he will demand it and give you 10 turns in peace.

 

[AcaMetis]

Not sure if it's a good idea or not, but...

Spoiler :

Mansa met you by sending a WB to you, right? Would it be worth it to send a WB or Galley/Scout combo towards him once you've got Writing, to try and meet the other AIs? I can't believe I'm saying this, but you have contact with a (soon to be) Friendly Super Monty and Mansa "anything for a tech" Musa. Maybe bulbs and tech trades will get you into a somewhat workable position?

 

[Fippy]

Krikav and Acametis

Spoiler :

Think it was sailing that he demanded after trading for AH, typo there
Yep good advice with keeping something for demands (clams here), resi + diplo would be too slow too.
One more forest and i could have whipped GLH (3 pop needed, 2 available), not a bad attempt yup.

I never saw Mansa's boat, but he must have found me via sea for sure.
Finding more AIs would be great! Not had the hammers for a scouting trip yet (scout died to barb spear doh..), but certainly something that should be done.

Think i agree, it's not totally hopeless (unless Monty attacks before reaching friendly, i doubt begging for his gold would work).
Not easy what i should aim for tech wise now. Military techs are out i guess, Monty will get longbows much too fast for stuff like Catapults.
Caste could be good? Aachen has some GP potential (and not much else )

 

[Izuul]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Yeah begging after he goes red fist likely just buys you 10T before he attacks anyway. I think i would consider putting 2T into Ag right now and then trying to beg the rest off him.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Tech-wise I'm thinking Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code for Caste System, then going all-in on Great Scientists for bulbing and tech trading. Skip Math/Alpha/Currency for now because...what point would they serve? You've got no forests to chop, no Forts to build, Aqueducts...I mean technically Aachen is unhealthy and Currency would be very nice for the extra trade route, but Math alone costs more than Meditation and Priesthood combined, and I'm thinking the sooner we get Caste System the better. Your cities shouldn't run out of things to build for the foreseeable future, and the AIs will get Alpha sooner or later. Worse case you should be able to trade for it.

 

[Fippy]

Great suggestion Izuul, very sure i will do just that
But probably with Meditation cos we want that for CoL anyways.

One tech that sometimes gets overlooked for trading is compass,
should keep it in mind after Caste. Harbors would also be better for health long term.

 

[Izuul]

That would be better if he's willing to trade it. I think when i loaded the game he was still unwilling.

 

[Fippy]

Ouch i keep forgetting he has not met any other AIs, weird that Mansa sent no scouting boat thru my borders yet
Has to be Agri in this case.

 

[Fippy]

I cannot continue atm, feels like 35+ degrees heat here and impossible to focus on such a difficult game

 

[shakabrade]

Mild spoiler, Charly map, anyone who played until T50 can read freely.

Spoiler :

Managed to get attacked T86 (+8 diplo at that moment). Gifted one city prior to that and was producing the settler for the second gift (and +2 liberation bonus). I was really greedy, sitting on 5 cities and okayish economy. However, I forgot that when AI knows only you, there is no red fist. Rusty.

Next time I'll be even more liberal with the whip to get those settlers sooner. Imp is really strong for this start. Tried to fend him off, but simply there is no point, and also reloaded million times to try to squeeze some Archers but to no avail.
I'll try again from earlier save and squeeze the second settler sooner.

@Fippy
I settled and teched completely the same at least Fishing - Mining - BW. I guess that is the only way if you try to count early worker turns and builds. Did not try to attempth GLH though. Does not seem right in this situation. 37 degrees here.

 

[krikav]

@shakabrade Do you know the mechanics for when you get liberation bonus? I don't, this might be a good situation to learn.

Spoiler :

I was planning on a new attempt tonight, in my first I went mining->fishing->tw and worker first and was under the impression that this was best. Building a workboat with only 3hammers didn't feel right to me.
Wheel after that to move the stream of settlers westwards faster after that and to keep the worker busy.

I think that GLH looks very strong on this map, what made you decide against it @shakabrade ?

I think if you want to play here Lain-style, one really has to plan on defending with archers and/or escape the continent.

I would also think that one creative way to avoid Montys wrath is to gift a city to mansa early on. That would work as a lightning rod.

 

[Fippy]

GLH topic

Spoiler :

I knew chances are small, but figured i would at least get some gold and sailing seemed needed either way.
I did certainly play the Archers on hill city defensive strat too, having some power helps against rng war checks on AIs
So i was not willing to expand beyond a close hill city early, and basically had nothing left but trying for the best wonder.

 

[shakabrade]

@shakabrade Do you know the mechanics for when you get liberation bonus? I don't, this might be a good situation to learn.

Spoiler :

I was planning on a new attempt tonight, in my first I went mining->fishing->tw and worker first and was under the impression that this was best. Building a workboat with only 3hammers didn't feel right to me.
Wheel after that to move the stream of settlers westwards faster after that and to keep the worker busy.

I think that GLH looks very strong on this map, what made you decide against it @shakabrade ?

I think if you want to play here Lain-style, one really has to plan on defending with archers and/or escape the continent.

I don't really do masochistic deity since I started it with Tachywaxon (later Manco Capac). BiC was also participating some 7-8 years ago. Don't really like late-game wars with Arties. To much time goes to waste. But back then I was still at the university and just wanted to be good at the game. I will now rather play a more greedy game to save some time and call GG if things go into tedious. Not really heroic, I know.

I would also think that one creative way to avoid Montys wrath is to gift a city to mansa early on. That would work as a lightning rod.

You can gift a city to a faraway civ only if they have 3 cities or less, I believe.

For Liberation bonus city need to be less than 9 tiles from the capital of the AI, IIRC. Diagonal tiles count as 1.5 distance, and I think it is rounded down. Please, anyone, correct me if I am wrong. Then you get 1.5 liberation bonus, rounded down, but for the second city you get 1.5 more and that's 3 diplo bonus. And there is no limit to it.
With Imp leader you can crank out 10T settlers with two grassland hill mines for the whole game and get ridiculous diplo bonus.

GLH is only strong when you have it, with Charlie and his non existing worker techs, plus no forests to chop, you need to all-in for probably 1400BC GLH which is not a safe date for me. I like my GLH 1800BC with 2 settlers.

 

[AcaMetis]

I think it's based on the relative distances between the AI's capitol and yours (and possibly the capitols of other AIs), rather than a set distance. If it is a set distance it's more than 9 tiles, I just tested it and I got a liberation...9 tiles from the AIs capitol. I swear this heat...anyway, another quick test, and I could still liberate a city even when it's 10 tiles from the AI's capitol.

 

[krikav]

I did another attempt, but Featherhead got the upper hand this round too.
Did gift 2 cities, and begged for a resource once friendly, but religion spread was slow so I did not reach friendly as quickly as was needed.
Once the peace treaty was of, he declared (even though we where friendly at the time for DoW).

Did get GLH at T75 ^_^ things where looking kind of bright.

T106 Spoilers (All AIs and alot of land)

Spoiler :

Got marble in a trade from Fredrich, and was planning on teching peacefully while being Montys best friend.
GLib was built this turn. :/

The mainland sports a complete collection of pushovers, if one manages to topple Monty with cannons+maces/muskets I think this map would be possible.
Ofcourse, getting GLH at T75 is pure luck, but not getting religion until ~T90 is also really bad luck...

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Sounds like a plan, though what if one of the other AIs tries to run away with the game? Quick naval invasion and burn a few cities down to the ground? I'm not sure if, given how much land is(n't) available here. that we could really spare the units. Monty is going to take everything and than some, probably.

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Yes, taking on Monty and claiming the island/continent for oneself is the difficult task. (And that is one hell of a difficult challenge.)

But after that almost all the other AIs have similar peaceweight, and only Mansa declares at pleased.
The land distribution also looks about even, they have roughly the same number of cities at T106 in my game.
I don't think the risk that they run away completely is the prime concern really.
There is no 20 city juggernout with a few vassals.