Prince Shadow Game

The first work boat is for the capital. Second is for the clam city. Or should the order be WB>>settler>>WB? With the second WB for the capital? Second WB is what I 2 popped into at the same time as completing a chop. If I understand correctly, the 2 pop represents 60 hammers. 30 go into the WB with 30 remaining. Plus a chop yields 20. So my overflow should be at least 50. Am I thinking about that correctly?

I can replay and keep it at 3F rather than 2F and see if I can get it to work out similarly.
 
First wb is for capital definitely. You want that up asap. I think the settler will get a chop first as you wait for fishing to arrive. So I think the issue is what you are doing with your workers ...I've no clue. You start chopping immediately when BW finishes..nothing else. The chops go into the settler or the WB when FISH is teched.

So it like warrior>settler (1Xchop)>back to warrior to grow>start wb when Fish is in >choppity chop chop>settler

warrior completes naturally somewhere in there..ha
 
oh lawdy! Do not 2 pop a workboat :lol:

Only way you can 2pop a workboat is on Turn 0 of production, which incurs a huge production penalty. Never whip something on Turn 0 of production unless an absolute emergency.


edit:

I'm adding a link to an old post of mine - with embedded links - all discussions I had on slavery, whipping and overflow. Decent primer on the subject to get you on the right path, @as2w :

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673
 
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I count 19 roads-making turns, at 5 hammers per turn in opportunity cost for the workers (they yield 5 hammers per turn while chopping), this is 100 hammers. Some roads can be good, but this looks very excessive imho.

The north-western city should not be placed there on the grassland, it should be placed on a plains hill, closer to capital= less maintenence. Extra hammer on the city tile and also you "kill" a worthless plainhill tile, and you keep a lucious green tile. The whales are 99% irrelevant, can be claimed with third ring culture for happines much later.
Good feedback @krikav, thanks. I always thought it was important to get those trade routes up as soon as possible so that is why I built the roads. Also, the road to the clam city was built by the worker I sniped from Giggles. Knowing I was going to put a city in the clam spot soon, I went ahead and built that road up to the cap as he was traveling north so that it would already be established by the time the spot was settled. At that time in the game there really wasn't much for him to do, except maybe get up to the cap and start building cottages. At any rate, I see the logic now the way you described it.

I think putting the whale city on the PH is a better idea as well.

Thanks!
 
Ha ha....my first thought as well on seeing that screenshot is how painful those roads looked. Clam city is only 3 tiles from Tim, yet you built roads on 4 tiles including two hills. Likewise the road from Tim to PH crossed a forest when you had flat tiles and sheep as well that could be hooked up on the way, as well as future connection to deer city.

Point is you need to give better thought to the turns you put into roads and the path you take. As krikav said, that is a lot of wasted worker turns.

But really, roads are not the priority anyway at this stage. Yes, getting those trade routes up and running is good but you can get there eventually.

Which brings up another little trick I've wanted to or may have even mentioned before in one you your games. Using half moves of workers to put turns into something like a road or improvements. Workers get two moves. Often you are moving a worker from Point A to Point C to do an improvement, but maybe you can put in a turn of something at Point B. So here are a couple of examples which are both hypothetical:

1) Say Tim just completed a worker and your next priority is improving that sheep tile. It's flat and unforested between Tim and sheep. You have TW. Instead of moving worker directly to sheep to improve the following turn, have the worker move 1t and put 1 turn into a road, then cancel. Move to sheep next turn and improve. By doing so you are laying down partial improvements using those movement points of a worker. This can save considerable turns.

2) Say a worker next priority is chopping a forest. It is 3 tiles from the target forest and there is flat unforested land in between. (moving into forest obviously takes 1 whole worker turn) If you move a worker directly to the forest from 3 tiles away it takes 2 turns to arrive on the forest. Instead, move worker 1 tile and place a road in a good spot > cancel action. Then move directly onto forest the next turn from 2 tiles away. (this also works for moving onto hill tiles where you lose a turn anyway)

These little tricks can save a lot of turns on roading, especially early on with a leader like Mansa who starts with the TW. You can place turns into roads at certain points as the worker moves around improving and in many cases have the roads completed later in time.

These are really important and helpful ways to improve on worker management early game. And you can do this also for other types of improvements like laying down partial cottages or farms.

Anyway, back to your game. I would not have gone Archery before Writing, and probably not even Hunting yet since you did not settle deer first. Your priorities have changes as you have changed your settling pattern. Ha..it is getting a little confusing. But it is good that your are practicing this over and over. However, I think you were fine just continuing from that save earlier that I just posted a small playthru myself.
@lymond, thanks again! Please see my response to @krikav re: the roads.

You did mention that trick earlier and my problem has been that at times I intend to do it and then forget to cancel the road build to move the worker again. So this is yet another thing to try to remember! By the way, at the time the road to the PH city was built, AH was not in yet so I couldn't have improved the sheep yet.

I went Hunting > Archery before Writing because I was concerned about Shaka. I was his worst enemy and I felt like I needed to get to HA as soon as possible and you know how Shaka can be!

So, yet again I decided to go back a bit to keep practicing. I reloaded a T40 save. Please see new post!
 
I've reloaded a T40 save to try to maximize worker turns better, per @lymond and @krikav feedback. I played 30 turns from there so I'm now at T70. I've got 4 cities, 3 workers, 2 chariots. From AH, I went Writing, then Hunting and Archery, as I planned to grab the deer city as my 4th city. While waiting for the settler, during the teching of Hunting, Shaka grabbed a spot near where I was planning on settling, taking the deer. So when the settler was out, I settled the cow spot to the south. I'm now teching HBR as although I'm not Shaka's worst enemy right now, he can be pretty fickle and I want to have some decent units to discourage him from DoW on me. Plus, I'd like to be able to take out Giggles sooner rather than later. After HBR I'll go ALPH.

I could use some advice on my next city spot(s). I've marked 3 potentials (A, B, C) on the screen shot. One is the spot suggested by @krikav (A). One has corn, marble, spices, and wine in it's first square (B), and one is on stone and has Elephants in its BFC (C). C is right on the border of Giggles, and B is close to Shaka. I'm leaning towards B, since it's got the most stuff, but food is scarce. Thoughts?

Also, please let me know how things look overall!

Spoiler T70 :
Civ4ScreenShot0072.JPG


Thanks!
 

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@lymond, thanks again! Please see my response to @krikav
You did mention that trick earlier and my problem has been that at times I intend to do it and then forget to cancel the road build to move the worker again. So this is yet another thing to try to remember! By the way, at the time the road to the PH city was built, AH was not in yet so I couldn't have improved the sheep yet.

Bear in mind that that was a hypothetical example just to demonstrate the point. No comment on the current game.

The worker trick will become second nature the more you practice, but even now I sometimes forget to cancel an action...ha...it happens. Regardless, it is great that you are aware of and practicing this method, as it is definitely a pro move. And I think by the very nature of practicing this type of thing now helps further reinforce just how important each and every worker action is in this game, especially early.

@lymondI went Hunting > Archery before Writing because I was concerned about Shaka. I was his worst enemy and I felt like I needed to get to HA as soon as possible and you know how Shaka can be!

Yeah, the Shaka deal seems to fluctuate with each playthru which in part is RNG, and part the worker steal since he likes Gilgs. In my first game Shaka went fist mode early, but I kinda felt he would attack Hammy and that is what happened. Also, I think I just remained at war with Gilgs indefinitely so as to have to declare multiple times. I never made Shaka unhappy.

May have been best in your current situation to go straight to Archery now, but otherwise Writing would be best.

...more to come as I review your game......

============

Hmmmm...really unfortunate not getting that deer city. Actually, I settled that second in my game (after clam), then PH city. Shaka never sent settlers my way. Just unfortunate randomness in part, plus I think I was just faster on getting out settlers.

Interestingly, your tech path is fine, but I actually went AH>Writing>Alpha before HBR. I like goi straight to Alpha on low levels.

Anyway, two things concern me here:

1) you are roading cow. still bad habits. chop that granary now

2) cow city probably does not need two workers now, and you probably should have at least a 4th worker now..which leads to

3) Try to avoid the unhappiness. Going into unhappiness is fine if you plan to immediately whip it off..unhappy citizen are worth 30H as well. But just staying in unhappiness costs money.

Instead, if you see you are going into unhappiness, then either adjust tiles or start a new worker or settler.

4) I think here that one chariot was fine and can be sent out S to scan around and hassle Gilgs maybe. A warrior can move back for MP in a city that needs it.

5) In this current scenario...I don't like the skirm. Might as well put a turn into a worker and 2pop whip it into a setlter in PH city.

Overall, I really don't like missing deer city here. So I'd either restart or go back to that earlier save I played, since you were in decent shape.

(As a note..ha..I found this start to be quite workable on Prince, but on Imm or Deity it would probably be a real tough game)
 
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Just got back to Turn 49 in my run through. Shaka settled in my direction making both the plains hill to the SE and the deer spot to the NE unusable until I kill that city that Shaka settled. So my third settler is heading to the cow city in the south.

I did some testing to see what I was doing with my micro that wasn't correct. I can see the difference between 2F and 3F is substantial. Making sure to go with the 3F to ensure city growth has become obvious. I can settle 2nd city on turn 39 and my WB was on the fish on turn 40.

@lymond As far as my worker turns, I had moved my 1st worker straight out to the wheat and improved it. Then I was only chopping forest. After wheat was improved, I moved one space over to begin chopping. Then I moved over to adjacent forest and chopped. So I don't think I was wasting any worker turns early on. One question that is situational...I was working my worker around to be next to the sheep when AH arrived. I successfully did that without wasted worker turns. At that point, was it more important to continue chopping or is the benefit from the improved sheep greater? I wasn't certain and went with the sheep improvement.

Also, thanks for explaining the penalty of Turn 0 whips. Won't make that mistake again. Ended up getting a chop into settler then chopped first WB. Chopped second WB and then two whipped my settler to get it out on turn 37. As mentioned above, this got Djenne settled on Turn 39. If I recall correctly, I had my first settler out earlier in my first run through, but I didn't have WBs built in the capital and going towards the new clam city.

Stolen worker from Gilgamesh is connecting Djenne to Timbuktu. Just finished writing. Seems like HBR or pottery needs to be next. I need to get horses hooked up so that I can hit Shaka and get rid of that poorly placed city and get two cities of my own in that space. In the meantime, I'm not sure if/where to settle a fourth city.

I'm enjoying seeing how the early key moves play into snowball effect. I have read about it tons of times on the forum and I understand the concepts. Now I'm in the process of internalizing those things so that I can employ the concepts myself.
 

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@as2w Regarding improvement of sheep, or continuing chopping. On mobile now, so just general response.
A imprived sheep is a gain of roughly 3food/hammers for perpetuity. With an initial investment of four workerturns.
Chopping is straight off 5 hammers per turn.
I would prioritize improving sheep almost every time. However if one additiomal chop would finish a new settler/worker, that might take precedence over sheep, because it would make all the dormant hammers previously dormant in that partially built settler/worker active.
 
Thanks @krikav. In this specific situation, the chop wasn't going to finish the settler so that also played into my choice to improve the sheep.
 
Bear in mind that that was a hypothetical example just to demonstrate the point. No comment on the current game.

The worker trick will become second nature the more you practice, but even now I sometimes forget to cancel an action...ha...it happens. Regardless, it is great that you are aware of and practicing this method, as it is definitely a pro move. And I think by the very nature of practicing this type of thing now helps further reinforce just how important each and every worker action is in this game, especially early.



Yeah, the Shaka deal seems to fluctuate with each playthru which in part is RNG, and part the worker steal since he likes Gilgs. In my first game Shaka went fist mode early, but I kinda felt he would attack Hammy and that is what happened. Also, I think I just remained at war with Gilgs indefinitely so as to have to declare multiple times. I never made Shaka unhappy.

May have been best in your current situation to go straight to Archery now, but otherwise Writing would be best.

...more to come as I review your game......

============

Hmmmm...really unfortunate not getting that deer city. Actually, I settled that second in my game (after clam), then PH city. Shaka never sent settlers my way. Just unfortunate randomness in part, plus I think I was just faster on getting out settlers.

Interestingly, your tech path is fine, but I actually went AH>Writing>Alpha before HBR. I like goi straight to Alpha on low levels.

Anyway, two things concern me here:

1) you are roading cow. still bad habits. chop that granary now

2) cow city probably does not need two workers now, and you probably should have at least a 4th worker now..which leads to

3) Try to avoid the unhappiness. Going into unhappiness is fine if you plan to immediately whip it off..unhappy citizen are worth 30H as well. But just staying in unhappiness costs money.

Instead, if you see you are going into unhappiness, then either adjust tiles or start a new worker or settler.

4) I think here that one chariot was fine and can be sent out S to scan around and hassle Gilgs maybe. A warrior can move back for MP in a city that needs it.

5) In this current scenario...I don't like the skirm. Might as well put a turn into a worker and 2pop whip it into a setlter in PH city.

Overall, I really don't like missing deer city here. So I'd either restart or go back to that earlier save I played, since you were in decent shape.

(As a note..ha..I found this start to be quite workable on Prince, but on Imm or Deity it would probably be a real tough game)

Thanks for the feedback once again. I have 2 workers in cow city so that I could chop with one and improve the cows with the other, but yeah...should not be roading that cow right now. Good points on the unhappiness and good way to stay out of it by building worker/settler. I think that I may have just gone into unhappiness in the clam city at this point.

I think I'm going to just continue on from here and plan to take that city from Shaka as soon as I can. Any thoughts on my city placement question?

Thanks!
 
Shaka has Impis, so you wont' be able to take that spot for a long time. Really I probably shoulda just had you settle deer city first. 1W of deer is just so much better, and on high levels this really would be the first spot to take. While you are definitely showing improvements in mechanics, this current save is actually probably the worst one of all the scenarios you presented, and that is not your fault.

As for the spots, they all seem fine. Doubt you will get B though, but you can try. (Shaka won't like it ..ha). Settling on stone there is probably best..bad tile itself but insta-access to stone for maybe Mids. No food but can get farms and eventual happiness from ivory, or phants. Probably look to settle that one close to or at the time you attack Gilgs.

With the exception of maybe getting up A sooner than later, my focus would be on HAs.
 
Shaka has Impis, so you wont' be able to take that spot for a long time. Really I probably shoulda just had you settle deer city first. 1W of deer is just so much better, and on high levels this really would be the first spot to take. While you are definitely showing improvements in mechanics, this current save is actually probably the worst one of all the scenarios you presented, and that is not your fault.

As for the spots, they all seem fine. Doubt you will get B though, but you can try. (Shaka won't like it ..ha). Settling on stone there is probably best..bad tile itself but insta-access to stone for maybe Mids. No food but can get farms and eventual happiness from ivory, or phants. Probably look to settle that one close to or at the time you attack Gilgs.

With the exception of maybe getting up A sooner than later, my focus would be on HAs.
Thanks for the feedback @lymond. I haven't had time to get back to the game all weekend but I should be able to in the next day or so. Based on your thoughts and in the spirit of practice and learning, I think I might load up an earlier save to continue with. This was a tough start and I'd like to see how it could be different if I went in a different direction, like settling the deer city early. I really don't like where I'm at in this game at this particular time. I'll post again then.

Thanks!
 
OK @lymond I finally got a bit of time to get back to this. I restarted at T40 to see how things would work out. By that time I had already settled the PH site and was working on a settler in Tim. I had 2 workers chopping so I got that settler out quickly and was able to settle the deer site. I then went and settled the clam and cow sites after that. So I'm at T100 now and I think things are looking pretty decent.

I am Shaka's worst enemy and he's not in fist mode right now but I still need to be prepared. My military is not up to speed enough yet so in order to stave off an attack I think I need to up my numbers. I had to self tech IW as none of the selfish AIs would trade it to me. Thankfully I have some iron in my cow city so I can build something other than HAs.

Looking ahead I think I should settle on the stone tile next. Not a great spot but there really aren't any good spots left, other that the grass hill spot next to the corn, which is right next to Shaka. Need to be prepared for war if I settle that spot I think.

At any rate, here's how things look now:
Spoiler T100 :
Civ4ScreenShot0076.JPG
Just chopped out a Granary in the cow city with one of those 2 workers you see there. The other one is heading over to improve the iron.

Thoughts?
 

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On the ivory is better than on the stone, since it has a food available to at least borrow.
The corn city would be nice to get if you can get it.
Else you have the backfill city I have been talking about NE of the horses on the PH.

By this time in the game, you should probably have done some scouting into the AIs lands and between them, the AIs can sometimes miss to settle excellent spots which you can sneak ahead and settle.
Things like a tundra city with fish+crab and 6+ fur.
 
Hey OD - Just hitting on some comments here based on your screenshot and comments. May not have time today with the draft tonight.

1) Actually I like on the stone. With a road you will have stone immediately. It's a marginal city regardless of whether on stone or ivory, but immediately access to stone may allow for wonders like MIds or failgold. City can get farms later. (I actually settled 1S of stone myself, but I had already taken Uruk.)

2) I think teching IW is a big mistake, and you really need prevent yourself from doing it. Ask yourself what purpose it serves. Regardless, be patient and someone will eventually trade IW to you. (By taking the time to tech IW you basically neutralized the advantage of teching Alpha i the first place, and...well...that is a huge tech diversion. Making better decisions with what you tech is a huge part of improving)

3) This goes back to perspective, but my main concern here at 350BC is I feel you should be in a much better position as far as land - expansion and actually very much conquest. Once HBR was in, your priority is HAs and taking out Gilgs, and I think that is a pretty big negative that I see. Pretty much every city should be whipping out or chopping HAs....cow city after granary. I took Uruk with 5 or 6.

4) Really instead of stealing workers and making peace each time, just stay at war and choke. Seems like you may have been declaring several times on Gilgs and that is the reason some AIs dislike you. I stole once and tricked him into grabbing another worker on one declaration. Then made peace after Alpha for some techs. Only declared one other time for another worker, but just stayed at war with him before taking him out with HAs. Doesn't matter if no one likes the target , but if neighbors like Shaka are Pleased with the target you want to limit your DOWs. This type or strategy is nuanced so it takes time to get a feel for what is best for the situation.

I think it's about time I can show you my game a bit. I'm attaching two saves. One at the actually date of your game and one at 275AD, where I had stopped. Notice the overall empire and # of cities at both dates. Also, look at the tech screen and what I'm teching. If you are worried about spoiling the map then just avert your eyes.

(keep in mind that through all this I was actually pretty sloppy with my workers but mostly did what I needed to do at the time)

In 375 BC save, I'd like you to notice that I just traded for IW, even though teched Alpha ages ago. I just had no reason to need IW so saw now reason to give up Alpha yet. Uruk is down, and I had taken peace earlier with Gilgs for I think Sailing and maybe something else. Gives time for units to heal anyway and he doesn't have and strat resources. Settler coming out for stone city. I think I have like 15 or so HAs now, but started sending them toward Hammy for that war, which I agreed to joined when Shaka asked me. In 275AD save you will see how that is going. (working on TGL in Bablyon now that I have marble, and completed GLH rather quickly in Eridu, so economy is great)
 

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On the ivory is better than on the stone, since it has a food available to at least borrow.
The corn city would be nice to get if you can get it.
Else you have the backfill city I have been talking about NE of the horses on the PH.

By this time in the game, you should probably have done some scouting into the AIs lands and between them, the AIs can sometimes miss to settle excellent spots which you can sneak ahead and settle.
Things like a tundra city with fish+crab and 6+ fur.
Hey @krikav, thanks a bunch for the feedback. Good point on the scouting. I do tend to NOT do that through AI lands at times so thanks for the reminder. Question for you...say you are scouting and you spy a great city spot but it's on the other side of an AI. Would you go ahead and settle it? I tend not to do that for maintenance reasons and also it could be an easy target for an AI.

Thanks.
 
Hey OD - Just hitting on some comments here based on your screenshot and comments. May not have time today with the draft tonight.

1) Actually I like on the stone. With a road you will have stone immediately. It's a marginal city regardless of whether on stone or ivory, but immediately access to stone may allow for wonders like MIds or failgold. City can get farms later. (I actually settled 1S of stone myself, but I had already taken Uruk.)

2) I think teching IW is a big mistake, and you really need prevent yourself from doing it. Ask yourself what purpose it serves. Regardless, be patient and someone will eventually trade IW to you. (By taking the time to tech IW you basically neutralized the advantage of teching Alpha i the first place, and...well...that is a huge tech diversion. Making better decisions with what you tech is a huge part of improving)

3) This goes back to perspective, but my main concern here at 350BC is I feel you should be in a much better position as far as land - expansion and actually very much conquest. Once HBR was in, your priority is HAs and taking out Gilgs, and I think that is a pretty big negative that I see. Pretty much every city should be whipping out or chopping HAs....cow city after granary. I took Uruk with 5 or 6.

4) Really instead of stealing workers and making peace each time, just stay at war and choke. Seems like you may have been declaring several times on Gilgs and that is the reason some AIs dislike you. I stole once and tricked him into grabbing another worker on one declaration. Then made peace after Alpha for some techs. Only declared one other time for another worker, but just stayed at war with him before taking him out with HAs. Doesn't matter if no one likes the target , but if neighbors like Shaka are Pleased with the target you want to limit your DOWs. This type or strategy is nuanced so it takes time to get a feel for what is best for the situation.

I think it's about time I can show you my game a bit. I'm attaching two saves. One at the actually date of your game and one at 275AD, where I had stopped. Notice the overall empire and # of cities at both dates. Also, look at the tech screen and what I'm teching. If you are worried about spoiling the map then just avert your eyes.

(keep in mind that through all this I was actually pretty sloppy with my workers but mostly did what I needed to do at the time)

In 375 BC save, I'd like you to notice that I just traded for IW, even though teched Alpha ages ago. I just had no reason to need IW so saw now reason to give up Alpha yet. Uruk is down, and I had taken peace earlier with Gilgs for I think Sailing and maybe something else. Gives time for units to heal anyway and he doesn't have and strat resources. Settler coming out for stone city. I think I have like 15 or so HAs now, but started sending them toward Hammy for that war, which I agreed to joined when Shaka asked me. In 275AD save you will see how that is going. (working on TGL in Bablyon now that I have marble, and completed GLH rather quickly in Eridu, so economy is great)
Hey @lymond thanks again!

2) OK, OK...I won't tech IW again...:lol:. I guess I felt that since Shaka didn't like me much I needed to have that to have more military options. Your point about teching Alpha first being neutralized is good and I haven't thought about it in that way.
3) Targeting Giggles - overall I think I need to be more aggressive, and earlier. I tend to not DOW on anybody unless I KNOW I have enough military already standing ready. Also, in this particular game I knew Shaka would declare and I felt I needed to keep my military on my eastern borders. Anyway, I think being a bit more aggressive might be in order?
4) I only declared once on him when I stole that one worker. At the time Shaka was worst enemies with somebody else but within a few turns I was suddenly his worst enemy. I did sue for peace a bit later but maybe I shouldn't have.

Thanks for sharing your saves and I have to say, pretty impressive at 275AD! Do you typically whip out your military as much as you can?

In looking at your progress at both saves, it brought up a question in my mind. My habit is to plan out the tiles in my BFC so that I have enough food for a full population of citizens, maximizing hammers and commerce as much as I can. Obviously in some cities that's not possible but I wanted to ask, when you settle a city what is your strategy for developing it? I know the available resources make a difference but do you plan for full population? Another poster had said his strategy is to continuously whip because it's a waste to have more than 4 citizens. I guess there is more than one way to skin the cat but I wanted to get your take on it.

Thanks again!

Spoiler Lymond - NFL :
How do you think your Falcons did in the draft? You happy? I know we traded our 1st rounder to you.
 
Spoiler Rams took all our picks! :
:lol: Yep, I was pleased with the draft. It's hard losing a 2nd and 3rd round pick, but basically the pick we got from the Rams was the 2nd rounder, and the Falcons did have some picks to spare this draft with multiple 4th,5th and 6th rounders. Anyway, OL was in major need of upgrading and I think we got two special players in the first round to bolster the OL.


2) OK, OK...I won't tech IW again...:lol:. I guess I felt that since Shaka didn't like me much I needed to have that to have more military options. Your point about teching Alpha first being neutralized is good and I haven't thought about it in that way.

The thing to really take from this, and it applies even more to higher levels of difficulty, is to be more focused with tech decisions. I've mentioned this before, but there are certain techs that AIs always tech. IW is one of those techs....in fact most military related techs the AIs will prioritize. One common approach on highest levels is to go the Aesths route to use that tech to get Alpha, Maths, IW, etc. But on a level like Prince, I usually go straight alpha and trade for techs like IW when needed..not necessarily immediately.

With that said, there may be some cases where you go IW ..like for a UU, isolation, or just tons of jungle. But generally it is avoided. It is an expensive early tech that you really can't buy anything with because the AIs always tech it.

3) Targeting Giggles - overall I think I need to be more aggressive, and earlier. I tend to not DOW on anybody unless I KNOW I have enough military already standing ready. Also, in this particular game I knew Shaka would declare and I felt I needed to keep my military on my eastern borders. Anyway, I think being a bit more aggressive might be in order?

Well, first off, this is Prince level Pangaea game, so there is always bound to be a nearby juicy target to exploit. Second, what you describe above is reactionary or passive. Now you can play that way, but what I'm trying to show is taking advantage of some early gains.

Yeah, a neighboring Shaka is not good in any game, and can lead to a loss, especially on higher levels. However, I don't really want you to play this out the whole time trying to react to what Shaka may or may not do. Try to handle him diplomatically as best as possible, and with Alpha you can always bribe him into wars to get him off your back. (In my game, he DOW'd Hammy rather early and asked me in, so that helped)

In this case we have Gigs nearby and have stolen workers from him. He is never going to be our friend and is already nerfed a bit due to the worker stealing and choking (well I did some of that..ha). So, I made a decision after Alpha to get HAs online and destroy him...gaining some pretty good cities in the process, and actually some tech as well...two wars.

All this gets much harder as you move up difficulty, but it is not out of the question to do this to at least one AI even on deity. Just takes practice.

4) I only declared once on him when I stole that one worker. At the time Shaka was worst enemies with somebody else but within a few turns I was suddenly his worst enemy. I did sue for peace a bit later but maybe I shouldn't have.

Not sure how Shaka's attitude decline with you more dramatically than in my game, as I dow'd Gigs at least a couple of times. I did trade resources to Shaka and eventually joined his war. But he was never less than "Cautious" with me.

edit: Point is, I don't have the full picture here. Shaka is bad in most cases, but can be good if you play him right. Either way, as I alluded to above, you either use him, diplo him, or eliminate him. The latter being difficult early here since he has metals and Impis, which are bane to horse unis.
Do you typically whip out your military as much as you can?

For the most part. Once HAs were online, I build them in all cities. 2-popping them when I could and putting in chops as well. For instance, a well time 2pop of an HA in one city with an incoming chop should get you another in 1 turn, or something of the sort. I got out 6 to 8 initially, and then turned to slow building them for a bit to let whip anger wear off some. But for the most part had no unhappy citizens during this process. It takes practice to get a feel for this, but it is something you should start doing.

Note, that in my case I got out a small army of HAs that were plenty to take down Gigs. Then I continued to slow build them in most cities, while some cities did other things like settlers or workers, whatever needed doing. Anyway, gradually sending them through Zululand to Babylon and beating Shaka to all those cities.

The point is, when at war and with a specific goal in mind, you set your empire toward that goal. My goal was Sumer. Babylon was secondary and I was patient with that. Get out what you need for the target and take the goal. Then adjust as needs change. Whipping can be done judiciously so as not to mortgage your empire, but generally I will do less whipping in my capital so I maintain my research rate. (I whipped ..I think ..I couple of HAs in Tim...can't remember exactly, but Tim was also focused on Scientists for the GS at some point)

In looking at your progress at both saves, it brought up a question in my mind. My habit is to plan out the tiles in my BFC so that I have enough food for a full population of citizens, maximizing hammers and commerce as much as I can. Obviously in some cities that's not possible but I wanted to ask, when you settle a city what is your strategy for developing it? I know the available resources make a difference but do you plan for full population? Another poster had said his strategy is to continuously whip because it's a waste to have more than 4 citizens. I guess there is more than one way to skin the cat but I wanted to get your take on it.

This is actually a good question, and plays a big part into early success - along with all the other stuff like worker management. I recall the post in question, and I think what he was saying is that outside of your capital, most cities are expendable. (this kinda follows on what I was explaining just above)

Your cap, generally, is going to be your primary source of beakers...cottages, scientists, etc. yeah, you whip it early during the initial expansion phases, but at some point you get that library and start running scientists. You also start putting down cottages for the cap to grow...helper cities help with that too. (Note: not all caps are suited to cottages or Bureacracy, but it is the general idea)

Once you get 2 or 3 good cities out with food, then those cities can take on the brunt of production needs..settlers, workers, or units. These cities are more expendable in terms of population. They likely have a good food resource or two, if you have settled appropriately. When time for war prep, you have no problem whipping more in these cities for war. The cap may or may not get some whipped units...all depends on needs and improvements, but the idea is the cap will keep that research going.

So, I think what is best to keep in mind is the following: A city is settled generally for food - that is food specials. Sometimes it may even have something like a copper, horse or iron tile..in other words strong production tiles. Or it just may have more than one food special. The key here is you don't whip off your strong tiles - anything else is fine to whip off off...even cottages.

Also, think about specialists as well. You are going to run them in the cap early to get first GS, but you will try to run them whenever feasible in other cities. This keeps the GPP going in multiple cities so that you can produce more later in a Golden Age. Point here is that you don't always need to just improve every tile with something early, especially mines, cause a scientist is better than a mine.

Ultimately, it can be a balancing act. You want to grow cottages, especially for a Bureau cap, and you try to keep those working as much as possible. But when planning a war, you go all in, and that means using the whip a bit more. Still, if a longer game is planned, like a Space game, then you will tailor your empire toward that goal and eventually grow cities quite a bit - likely with a later whip cycle of advanced units for mid-game wars.

But for much of the early game(BCs, maybe early ADs), outside the cap, most cities will likely not be much higher than 4-6 pop...depending quite a bit on overall happiness you have and how much fighting you do.

Lastly, when planning that mid-game golden age, you generally want to be a peace and grow cities as much as possible, so you can run as many specialists as possible.
 
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Hey @krikav, thanks a bunch for the feedback. Good point on the scouting. I do tend to NOT do that through AI lands at times so thanks for the reminder. Question for you...say you are scouting and you spy a great city spot but it's on the other side of an AI. Would you go ahead and settle it? I tend not to do that for maintenance reasons and also it could be an easy target for an AI.

Thanks.

It's easy to forget scouting, or... It's not that difficult to continue scouting if you do have a scout running around. You get reminded for input on that unit each turn.
What one does forget is that units are a utility that you can leverage in multiple ways, keeping the in cities as military police is one, standing by ready to defend or attack is another, and going out into uncharted terriitory (or into AI lands, keeping track of their unit movements) is another.
Just as you after each build in a city start to ponder what that city should build next, you should every now and then cruise through your units, considering if they at the moment doing the most relevant task at hand.

Regarding cities behind AI lands, it's abit tricky and depends alot on the city and other circumstances. The bar is certainly higher for what cities I consider settling, and these cities I'm also more prepared to lose. If they are in danger, whip them to the ground or starve down in some other way, and then gift them to some other AI if possible.
That hypothetical city with fish+crab+a bunch of fur can perform alot of task on it's own, and just the fact that you claim resources can be awesome.
3 fur can be traded to 3 different AIs for 20+ gpt, or get you access to +3 happines from other resource trades.

If you are interested, Lain had just such an example in his latest video with Zara.
He was quite starved for land, and ventured past the AI and grabbed a foodless city that had some fur and a silver mine.
He did have the great lighthouse though, and the city was coastal so there was extra traderoutes baked into the deal as well.
 
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