Problems on Marathon Deity with "normal" leaders

[Habitus]

Only a matter of time I've switched ot Hannibal for the Moment though, as I'm still trying out leaders. Any advice on HA rushes? Do I need Currency? Do I need Math? Should I oracle HBR or something else like Feudalism for quadruple promoted Numidians?

No to Oracling HBR, Maths is handy if your planning on chopping out the Numidians, Feudalism should be good if your trying for early vassal too

I'd love to play Shaka. The Ikhanda is one of the two awesome buildings available to the people playing for points with Corps. I would have no idea though how to win the early wars with him. With the settings I use (Huge map, 17 AIs) , techtrade plays a huge role, and by the time I attack, the AI normally has got LBs aswell as WEs (about 1000 BC)

Impi is good until Axes, which gives it a really small window to be used, the 2 move helps it get used in that time but basically need a Mining --> BW opening to even use them. So the Ikhanda is more what makes the Zulu good and you have to play with the standard units like Wastin says

 

[Seraiel]

Did you even friggin' read my reply you were asking in a PM that much?

There was something about Shaka...you want to play with him...and despite.

I read all of it, nothing about Shaka. What I remember, is, that you told me something about whipping a building in a newly conquered city and after that switching in Culture to get borderpop + building next turn. I tried that and it didn't work somehow.

 

[Seraiel]

Elepult?

Good idea...

No to Oracling HBR, Maths is handy if your planning on chopping out the Numidians, Feudalism should be good if your trying for early vassal too

Impi is good until Axes, which gives it a really small window to be used, the 2 move helps it get used in that time but basically need a Mining --> BW opening to even use them. So the Ikhanda is more what makes the Zulu good and you have to play with the standard units like Wastin says

Don't know, but on Deity Marathon, the first AI has BW in 3500 BC and the last in 2000 BC. That are only 100 turns of lifespan then. I cannot imagine how the Impi could do anything during that time, he costs more than twice as much as the Quechua and is even worse against Archers. But I'll try Shaka or Burgerking with Elepult.

 

[Manco Capac]

I read all of it, nothing about Shaka. What I remember, is, that you told me something about whipping a building in a newly conquered city and after that switching in Culture to get borderpop + building next turn. I tried that and it didn't work somehow.

There was a link to a NORMAL speed game with Shaka. A perfect game for learning war skill. Plox play a single normal speed game where war is strongly favored...

I assure you that game was awesome. Okay I should stop advertising myself...

 

[Manco Capac]

Here is a picture for you that you believe it, I didn't myself at first.

I still don't understand that picture yet...looking back.
How Lincoln refuses to trade on friendly. It makes no sense. Goddammit Lincoln trade me that Archery secrets.

I read all of it, nothing about Shaka. What I remember, is, that you told me something about whipping a building in a newly conquered city and after that switching in Culture to get borderpop + building next turn. I tried that and it didn't work somehow.

No, it works. Actually I find it funny getting a border pop and a building in on the same turn.
I made a test game, verified and it worked again. Assure yourself your whipped building is in queue as once culture pop occurs it changes when IBT to the building. Why working that way; I think it has to do with what DanF shared with us on S&T subforum a while back: beakers are compiled before production. I deduce gold, beakers and culture works all the same way. Thus possible culture from city production counts just like producing science once the border pop is done before starting IBT period, the switch to the building (or unit) is done immediately.

Anyways, I find really useful to do that than waiting a turn for both culture pop and build. Of course on marathon it is harder to have an instantaneous border pop.

 

[Seraiel]

Ah, you're talking about when you produce enough culture to make the borders pop and save 1 turn through that. I thought what you ment was, that if you whip a building with OF, the OF gets converted to Culture when you insert Culture before the building, and that this was some kind of exploit I could use.

Producing 30 Culture for borderpop 1 on Marathon in 1 turn is really hard, that's why I didn't understand you at all.

And to the picture: I had a vassal at that time, didn't remember it at first, and of course I also forgot about combined diplo-stance although I should know it, because I've read it from you for at least 2-3 times. I was wrong, you were both right.

[EDIT]

The link to the game... I read your reply, but I didn't read the whole game . But I think I owe you one, so I'll catch up and read it. Just 1 more turn...

 

[Manco Capac]

^ Oh my god...I think I just discovered a minor exploit...

It is even even better than getting two things in one turn (remember eternally building wealth in CivIII while doing something else in reality): at moments where the city is getting any border pop (not limited only to the first one), build culture at all cost because you get double production doing that!!

I did some test to see how much production invested in next building and I got whole production for a turn. Then where the hell hammers in culture gone, well you invested those hammers to culture and during IBT you invest another same rate for the next thing in queue.

LAWL. Minor exploit because it only happens at 30 300 and so on on marathon.
Still free hammers are always good. I call it Music exploit.

 

[WastinTime]

^ Oh my god...I think I just discovered a minor exploit...

It is even even better than getting two things in one turn (remember eternally building wealth in CivIII while doing something else in reality): at moments where the city is getting any border pop (not limited only to the first one), build culture at all cost because you get double production doing that!!

I did some test to see how much production invested in next building and I got whole production for a turn. Then where the hell hammers in culture gone, well you invested those hammers to culture and during IBT you invest another same rate for the next thing in queue.

LAWL. Minor exploit because it only happens at 30 300 and so on on marathon.
Still free hammers are always good. I call it Music exploit.

Yea, that works, I've been doing that one for years.

 

[Seraiel]

The game loves me, one 3 Gold, one 4 Gems start with Hannibal. In the first one, Oracle went in 2400 BC, in the 2nd one I managed to oracle Feudalism as planned, but there were absolutely no horses anywhere. I even played till 1500 BC to see if someone would trade some, had all AI on pleased, but nobody. Even the Mids got constructed by my neighbour Brennus, the meatshield, and I had Marble + Stone on plus, but without Horses, well...

One question: What do you think about gifting the AIs most of the smaller techs after having reached Alpha? I always do that, to get them to pleased, so they cannot DoW me, but I think it actually hurts an eraly rush extremely, because then there are no "really weak" target. What do you do, do you just gamble that nobody nobody DoWs you before you can defend yourself?

And how good is 1000 BC as an attack date on Marathon, it somehow seems to late to me, but I find no way to attack faster, I cannot skip Granaries, can I (Marigold once supposed that) ? How about Barracks and Stables? How do you deal with early chopping, I cannot chop out HAs with Math, because most of my Forrests are gone earlier for Settlers / Workers, only the 4th city upwards may have some left, is there a logic in founding less cities?

Tia, Seraiel

 

[Seraiel]

I still need answers to those questions from above.

Have played with Hannibal in the meantime. Something seems to be severely wrong with my playstyle, the earliest attack date I got was 800 BC with about 20 Numidians. Lost all of them to 2 (!) cities of the most underdeveloped Civ (last Rank) , all others already had Longbows at that time and I didn't wanna fight those.

Either I'm misunderstanding something completely about early rushes, or it's the 17 Civs all trading with each other that enhance the tech-tempo of the game so much, that it's simply impossible to do any rush at all.

Here is what I did:

1. Rexed to 6 cities. Could have grabbed 8 but that would have ment an even later rush and less units, so I decided against it.
2. Oracled MC in 2300 BC.
3. Got HBR from Ghandi (!) at about 1800 BC.
4. Build Granaries, Barracks / Stables in Hammer the 4 hammer-cities, Libraries in the 2 commerce-cities
5. Massed up Numidians for some centuries, but 17 was the most I could achieve before I decided that I had to attack now or never.
   Did some very nice Diplomacy during the whole round and found very decent tech-traders. Because of that, I was tech-leader most of the time, but the problem was the production.

Some saves are attached, I'd be glad if someone would have a look at them and tell me his / her opinion about them. I think it was very well played, that's why I don't understand why I failed.

Tia, Seraiel

P.S.: My current solution to this is to try out Isabella. Rex peacefully, settle the Islands, roflstomp everyone with Conqs. They seem to come at a time where the empire is set up enough to produce the numbers needed, which isn't the case with the Units I've tried before. The other choice would be Ragnar.

 

[ecuwins]

The HA rush formula is typically worker techs > Pottery > HBR > BW > Archery. Here I see things like trading for HBR and Oracle building. That is not a "rush". Staying small(not too many cities) before HBR is in helps a lot with the tech rate. On normal speed it's 2-3 cities pre HBR > then whatever.

 

[Seraiel]

I will try this out again with less cities, as less Settlers mean more and earlier HAs.

Anyhow, I don't think getting HAs too late was the main problem, it's more that with 17 AIs, tech-tempo is simply too high because of trades, and, that for this to work with these settings, maybe skipping Granaries, Barracks and / or Stables is necessary.

Please have a look at the saves and the dates, I got HAs even before I considered my empire to be rdy to build them, 1800 BC, and AI got LBs at 1500 BC. I started building HAs directly after Granaries, Barracks and Stables had been set up, 1300 BC and attacked a target that was underdeveloped at 800 BC with 17 Numidians and lost 7 of them to 6 defenders (mostly Axes / Spears) and the other 10 at the 2nd city.

Bad luck was also something that played into this, I lost like 6 Units having 50% chances in a row, but I think HAs or in this special case Numidians are the main problem. I'm 100% sure, that if I'd had have Praets instead of Numidians, I would have won with a lot less losses, I even could have chosen other targets for attack as Praets beat LBs at a fairly decent rate.

Skipping Barracks and Stables and staying at only 3 cities is what I'll try if I play Hannibal again, today, it's Rome's day again because I think that Praets are simply better for my Settings and I also think that HAs are simply too weak.

 

[civvver]

I've always thought HAs are too weak, and again, I don't understand why numidians are any better than regular HAs because they get less strength against the most common defender! Hannibal has great racials and a nice UB but I dislike his UU a lot. Also HBR is a very expensive tech. Most HoF games that HA rush pop HBR from a hut. Luck is going to play a huge role in pumping score without Inca.

Keep trying Rome, also consider Egypt and/or Persia. Chariot rushes come so much earlier than HAs.

 

[Bugio]

Marathon speed obviously favours Praetorians. Travel distance matters less when it comes to attack and city raider promotions really help, also they translate to siege war really well. Anyway i don't see why you have problems with HAs, also i don't get why more civs means harder times. Sure they may trade better each other, but till feudalism, it shouldn't matter, in fact smaller opponents increase the likelyhood to be able to pillage metal from them, making HAs almost unstoppable.
I agree with ecuwins, you need to stay smaller and let them buld the cities for you in the start. Once opponents get feudalism, is bring siege or tech to cuirassers really fast.
Remember a rush isn't supposed to dominate the map, but should let you secure enough land to win

 

[Seraiel]

I seem to be able to settle enough land without the need to rush anyone. I'm playing an overly hard game with rome atm where I started in the jungle and had opponents in 10 tiles range on 3 sides (the 4th side was water) . Even without Forrests I managed to settle 5 cities, and after that, I simply used warmonger Peter to start some wars against targets I want to conquer at some time, but Frederick actually boxed back so hard, that peter lost 2 cities and because they were still size 1, they auto-razed, giving me the place for 2 more so 7 .

I've started on Worker-stealing, which is so powerful, that I couldn't believe it, and if one plays with events, at some time the "great mediator" will come and make peace or "the enemy has shown unexpected mercy and healed your troops" . If one picks the right targets for stealing, diplomatic maluses are minimal, even more, if one steals early when not all AIs have met each other.

Praets are very powerful, but they still seem to come too early for me taste. It's not that many Civs is "harder times" , it's just that "many Civs mean many random-tech-choices" and that means someone will tech Feudalism by chance, and I cannot help it, but if I wanna stay in the tech-race and not completely sacrifice my empire for a rush, I have to set up at least Granaries and Barracks and Oracle something big. I'm seriously thinking Ragnar or even Isabella atm. Ragnars Berserkers come just at that time, where my empire seems rdy to produce units, about 1300 BC, and Conquistadors are just awesome to dominate the map and not so far away if one manages to Lib MT, one can build HAs before that and upgrade them. With all the Gold-Builders in my games, money is seldomly a problem.

I think I just have to steal more Workers and get a good map with Forrests, had a double wet corn double gold start yesterday but had generated from the wrong save-file still having Suryarvarman in it, so I experimented a bit, stole 2 or 3 workers and had 5 cities before oracle at 2000 BC, 17 turns for one wihtout chopping, omg.

I think it's not long, then I have my game where I manage to get a decent score, I'm starting to understand now how the other leaders work, I always manage to be tech-leader due to very well chosen opponents and very good diplomacy (I trade for almost everything) and always manage to have at least 200 Beakers at 1000 BC, I never get DoWed due to not using overlap to much and expanding mostly horizontal.

I'm still not really satisfied yet, but as I said, I'm learning a lot in every game and I only have to get a little lucky and get a decent map, then the 1.5M with a non-Incan-leader will drop.

Thx for your answers, always motivates me to take some time and think, get new energy and play further afterwards.

Sera

 

[Habitus]

I usually HA rush with 2-3 cities, and grab early writing and use scientist to help speed up researching HBR. Never done it on Marathon thou so my timings will likely be off.

 

[civvver]

Why are you obsessed with every civs unique unit and basing all of your strategies around that? Ragnar for berserkers? Anything you can do with a berserker you can do just fine with regular maces. Izzys UB is really nice for trebs and cannons, but her UU will almost extensively fight longbows and muskets, you won't get to use the bonus.

You started off right I think, picking Inca to highlight quechas, and picking Rome to try praets. War chariots and immortals are other nice rush UUs to try, but if you're finding early war might not be so necessary, or don't want that to be your main strategy, pick a leader for their traits and/or starting techs.

Try a really strong one like Darius, or, because you love wonder building, go for roosevelt. Or maybe Ramessess. You could found a religion and popping a GP with him is a breeze, and you can wonder spam. There's tons of strong leaders that can all get to curiseiers/cannons/cavalry first.

 

[Seraiel]

Not everything you can do with a Berserker you can do with a Maceman

Big & Small mapscript has tons of islands, and getting most of those is an important strategy to stay below domination limit but max out cities. I think amphibious units and navigation promoted ships could be really nice there. Also, I chose Ragnar partly for his traits and starting techs. He is FIN which still find one of the strongest traits for a Sushi-Economy. I have a huge problem with growing my cottages, the first ones usually go online at about 1500 BC, then FIN makes a huge difference. Then, Ragnar starts out with Hunting, which is very good if you play with GHs, you get at least twiced as many and have even higher chances for a free tech. Bad side is, that he cannot find BW in a Hut, but something like AH is also fine. Fishing isn't too bad either if you specifically look for coastal starts, something you really wanna have on this map, as conquering coastal cities to settle the islands simply takes too long, and Seafood gives Commerce, good Commerce with FIN. I think I will try Oracle CS or at least Oracle Machinery again with what I've learned about overlap and ressource-sharing. But maybe it'll all come down to good old Oracle Currency, which is just so powerful.

And I like UUs really really really, but I'm not obsessed with them. I'm seriously thinking about playing Shaka and simply go for Elepult, which imo is a superstrong strategy. Praets have the problem that they cannot fight Maces, War-Elephants don't have that problem, they become obsolete with pikes and that's a lot later. Maces though are my favourite unit of all, I won Replay #1 nearly completely with CR-Maces, together with Trebs, they beat anything up to Rifling with nearly no losses. That's why I thought, why not try out a unique Mace that gets nice Bonuses which fit the map, before going back to Shaka and Elepult again.

Numidians were just a detour because everybody says HAs are just so great and I wanted to try those out, I wasn't impressed by them. Praets are great, but Maces have a longer lifespan and come just at the right moment. Conqs I'm gonna try out at some time because I remember Cuirrassiers to have been really strong sometimes, but that won't be any time soon because Izzy's Traits and starting Techs suck just so much and her UB doesn't fit at all, who even builds Castles. You see, a UU alone is not enough for me.

@ Habitus: The "Scientist-Thing" I never understood, which is one of the problems I have with my actual games. I usually get the first GS way too late, sometimes past CS, because I simply don't get up a Library really early, and evn if I have one, I seldomly find the Food to work Specialists. I found it easy with Hatty because of CRE-discount, but with normal leaders, a Library is 270 Hammers on Marathon. If one builds Settlers / Workers, a Granary and Oracle before that, that's easily over 1500 Hammers, then there are no Forrests with which one could fasten up a Library, and whipping it is normally no solution on my maps, because it's really hard to find enough food to support those Gold Mines. Maybe it's again easier with less Settlers / Cities.

 

[Habitus]

@ Habitus: The "Scientist-Thing" I never understood, which is one of the problems I have with my actual games. I usually get the first GS way too late, sometimes past CS, because I simply don't get up a Library really early, and evn if I have one, I seldomly find the Food to work Specialists. I found it easy with Hatty because of CRE-discount, but with normal leaders, a Library is 270 Hammers on Marathon. If one builds Settlers / Workers, a Granary and Oracle before that, that's easily over 1500 Hammers, then there are no Forrests with which one could fasten up a Library, and whipping it is normally no solution on my maps, because it's really hard to find enough food to support those Gold Mines. Maybe it's again easier with less Settlers / Cities.

With Capitol Gold Mines its probably better to not run the scientist there and therefore build the library when its convenient. A 2nd/3rd city with high food but no commerce resources could probably skip the granary till after the library and run scientist. No early whipping barring maybe the library means the later granary hurts less, and the great scientist if the slider is high can be used for an early academy, lower slider then bulbing maths for better chops is reasonable, even settling in capitol can work if its really early, the slider is low and maths doesn't seem like good trade bait (much harder to tell pre-alpha).

When my time frees up some I'll play out some marathon hof games, need them for Quattromasters anyway

 

[civvver]

Expansive seems like a good sushi trait to me. Cheap granaries, more health, stuff you need to grow cities really, really big. I agree, ragnar is a good leader outside of berserkers. I don't think you'll need the amphibious promo. How many 1 tile island cities do you usually capture? Citadel is nice because it gets your sieges promoted to accuracy (the extra bombard against city defenses promo) a lot quicker. Siege are hard to level up because they usually are sacrificed or bombard and don't get exp. Castles are a pretty large investment though.