Problems with playing Indian.

[michmbk]

I don't know - the fast workers can mean saving 20-30% of the time to perform an action a lot of the time, because they can move and start the work in the same turn - on normal speed, that can make a lot of difference. Chopping can be what, 33% faster if it's a non-hill tile?

Plus ORG is great for expansion - maybe not the extremely early expansion like the first city or two, because civics are still cheap, but early COL with a ton of cities followed by 2 pop whip courthouses is an awesome thing.

I agree SPI is a better mid-game trait, but it can make Asoka have one of the best upgrades to his units in the mid-game - build units for a few turns while in vassalage/theocracy, then switch right back to whatever economic techs. That plus the ORG trait makes him very equipped to handle a large empire.

So I agree if you're talking the very early expansion, maybe he's a bit slower than some of the traits you reference, but if you look for COL quickly while expanding, he recovers instantly with those 2 pop whip courthouses.

Other than Kublai (I love keshiks), he's my favorite warmonger civ despite no UUs - early rush, continue planting cities while heading to COL, whip courthouses, then the land plus good economy plus civic switching makes him awesome. But I'll agree that in the very early game, he's maybe not as fast at expansion as someone like Joao or Shaka.

 

[MarcoPollo]

I agree, Asoaka is one of my favorite leaders. The UB is a little late in the game form me, but it is better than a kick in the pants.

And I do like to let other AI's settle while I plot to take their land later.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

To be fair to Profanus, I took TMIT's initial comments as arrogant, especially the one quoted as "100% BS". And if I was Profanus, I would have been insulted too. But I don't really think TMIT cares about who he insults though. I have been on the wrong end of his conceited remarks a few times. But I bet he doesn't even remember it.

That said, I find most of TMIT's comments helpful.

As for my 0.02$ on India. Their start is one of the slowest. SPI and ORG or SPI and PHI take some time to pay-off. So don't try to expand too fast. If you can't support your expansion, slow down. Don't worry about that "Barb City on the other side of the continent" . Finding a good balance is key at the beginning.

Later on, the ORG and SPI or SPI and PHI can really pay off, but the early Micro is very key.

This is probably a more fair assessment of what I am like...some of you made it sound like I could do no wrong which is pressure that should only be placed on people who actually earn it, like Danf5771 or Rolo or something .

I realize I come off as arrogant...or more like I frequently am. I try to nevertheless be helpful and will rarely personally attack or put someone down, although I tend to use strong language when I get into arguments.

I almost never mean posts here to actually insult somebody, although sometimes I see some very weak arguments and it might seem that way, it's still the argument I'm attacking. I don't know anybody on here personally and even if I did, I know better than to judge people. Call it life experience or something, but that's not a road even my arrogance will allow nowadays.

As for this particular post series, I was frustrated because of what was directly bad advice that, if followed, would slow the development of a new player (specifically, I had such crap advice when I was a rookie, and it took a little time to understand it as such and ignore it, years ago now). That's why I mentioned the DoW thread too; that is one of S&T's very best and yet it's still kind of buried.

And no, at least for me nothing on CFC is personal. I don't go to bed at night thinking about a poster that is angry with me, or about some topic I hate. I rarely remember the name of the person I argued with 2 or 3 arguments ago (has to be a really good one ). I will also never, ever tell someone they shouldn't post here, though I might call out individual posts if illogical .

Its not like these workers work faster. They move faster. It still takes 3 turns to chop down 20 hammers of forest early on. So you may get 1 extra turn advantage from a tree chop, but on a tree hill, no dice. Instead, fast workers allow me to maintain less of them to do the same amount of work. I usually try to make 5 so that I can pump out one farm a turn. It would still take 5 regular workers to do the same.

You're either shaving hammers or turns. It's not just the tree chop turns though; it's every mine, every 2 tile away special, every time you road over a hill or forest tile, etc. That adds up to a faster opening quickly. India also starts with mining which is a solid starting tech.

They're not going to grind out cities at the rate of someone like Joao, but they're no inland toku/izzy or montezuma type start either.

India's UU is solid, one of the most consistent benefits in existence from a UU though a bit nerfed if abusing marathon. UB is only so-so but the Indian traits are excellent/flexible as all get out. Maybe PHI/SPI grades out a little hard for rookies to leverage, but still pretty usable even then.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Gandhi and Asoka have the exact same starting techs, their axe rushes are going to pop out at the same time. If anything, India is awesome at axe rushing as they start with Mining, meaning you can research bronze working out of the gate. A heuteristic in a heavily forested start with grains and a civ that knows mining is:

-Send your warrior out to scout, this is really important, experience is less important than defogging as much surrounding land as possible.
-Build a worker (15t) while researching Bronze Working (15-16t)
-Immediately build a second worker (15t), research agriculture (8t), send out your first worker to chop 2 trees (6t for fast worker, 8t for regular worker).

So, did you find a city site with copper? Congrats! An axe rush is viable. In addition, is there a food resource in the first ring if you settle next to or on top of the copper? Is the copper in the direction of a viable target? Even better! Get your warrior to fogbust a safe path from your capital to your copper city.

If there's no copper within a thousand miles, oh well, just sit back and play a standard macro game by grabbing the best city sites first and blocking off land.

-Research The Wheel. Build a settler (25t), farm your grains (3t), this cuts your build time down to 16t or so. Send your workers out, chop 2-3 forests, dump your overflow onto antibarb warriors. With normal workers, you want to send them separate forest tiles to minimise wasted worker turns (8t for 3 forests). With fast workers, you send them to the same flatland forest tiles (5t for 3 forests).

Dayum son, its barely turn 30 and you've settled your first city! Okay, time to connect your 2 cities with roads, mine the copper, mine your hills, road to the enemy, chop out barracks and axes, attack.

The reason chopping is great early game, when you have 1-3 citizens total, is because a chopping worker is effectively generating 5 hammers per turn (1 turn to move onto forest, 3 turns to chop, 20 hammers output) without needing a citizen. The reason why indian fast workers are even better is that the ratio goes up to 6.66 hpt. This gets your early cities up so much faster, getting your snowball going earlier. Later, save chops for newly formed cities and early-mid game wonders.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's probably better to go food resource before BW, but BW isn't far behind when you want to axe rush.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

BW lets you get your second worker something like 8 turns faster than without, it gives an incredible amount of flexibility. Caveat: works best with lots of forests are around and tier 1 worker tech special resources (namely, agriculture and grains).

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Besides, who says an axe rush is obligatory? BW is an awesome tech, it turns your workers into a free and temporary 5hpt tile, and let's you convert food into hammers at a 3:1 ratio.

Plus, it's better to switch into slavery before other worker techs. Post agriculture, production comes from citizen tiles, which are affected by anarchy. Pre agriculture, production comes from worker chops: unaffected by anarchy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

BW lets you get your second worker something like 8 turns faster than without, it gives an incredible amount of flexibility. Caveat: works best with lots of forests are around and tier 1 worker tech special resources (namely, agriculture and grains).

Not exactly.

Working say a wet corn gives you 30 per 5 turns, and doesn't tie up future worker turns like repeated chopping to match yield. That's not really fair, because the corn is 3f w/o an improvement. Still, at 15 (while building a worker/settler) per 5 turns when you analyze the variance of the improvement, working a corn tile like that is *barely* behind chopping. However:

1. Trees are finite, worked corn is not
2. Trees are still there after you improve the corn, lost turns working a tile are NOT regained
3. The corn needs to be improved either way.
4. Growing the city off an improved tile post-worker comes faster with the improved corn tile, and that's also more production.

I've out-expanded people in forum games by skipping BW until after alphabet via working improved special tiles ASAP in multiple cities...the tile yields are important. Fast math might stack the deck in favor of *slightly* delayed chopping even further.

Starts matter though. You don't always have wet corn in capitol BFC, for example. Sometimes you don't even have a 6 yield tile.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Hmm, let's compare the two scenarios: (1) Agriculture then BW, or (2) BW then Agriculture. Assume a single riverside corn next to the city. We go Worker-Worker-Settler on both. We chop aggressively.

(1)

T8 - Agriculture finishes. Start on BW.
T15 - Worker pops out. Build a worker.
T20 - Farm is complete. Worker is at 20/60, 7hpt means 6 turns to finish.
T21 - Worker twiddles thumbs for a turn.
T22 - Worker moves onto a forest.
T23 - BW finishes. Initial worker starts chopping.
T26 - 2nd worker pops out, moves onto a forest. Chop finishes, 22 overflow put onto settler.
T27 - Settler is at 29/100. 7hpt means 11 turns to finish. 1st worker moves onto yet another forest.
T30 - 2nd chop finishes. Settler at 70/100. Worker starts mining that hill.
T31 - 3rd chop finishes. Settler is at 97/10. Worker starts mining that hill.
T32 - Settler pops.

(2)
T15 - Worker pops, moves onto forest. Start worker. BW finishes. Start agriculture.
T19 - Chop completes, worker at 36/60.
T23 - 2nd chop completes, worker pops, 12 overflow put onto settler.
T26 - Farm finishes, one of the workers moves onto forest. Settler is at 24/100, 7hpt, 11 turns to completion.
T30 - 3rd chop finishes, Settler at 72/100.
T31 - 4th chop finishes, Settler at 99/100
T32 - Settler pops.

...

Well.

I guess your method is better. The judgement is skewed towards farming if there are many good food tiles, more towards chopping with poorer food tiles. There's the same level of commitment towards your second city. I still stand by chopping whenever I get the chance.

 

[gorf37]

With respect to AI behavior changing based on what leader the human is playing, I'm under the impression that there are modifiers associated with 'warmonger respect'.

As in, if you're an aggressive leader, you'd have a somewhat lower chance of being on the receiving end of a DOW than if you're a more peaceful leader.

Am I totally wrong? (I think I might be. But then why have I heard about warmonger respect?)

@ TMIT - Thanks

 

[TheMeInTeam]

With respect to AI behavior changing based on what leader the human is playing, I'm under the impression that there are modifiers associated with 'warmonger respect'.

As in, if you're an aggressive leader, you'd have a somewhat lower chance of being on the receiving end of a DOW than if you're a more peaceful leader.

Am I totally wrong? (I think I might be. But then why have I heard about warmonger respect?)

Warmonger respect and peaceweight are only considered for AI-AI relations, but man can they be annoying X_X.

 

[Alisdair]

This has become something else.

I have actually played many times, I always win on Noble and struggle on Prince, I've gotten as high as Ivan the Terrible, so I'm not a completely new player, but I still can't play Prince with ease.

Anyway, you all disagree with what I seem to find maybe I agree most with the fog busting theory the most as I don't expand very much, even when I have a whole continent I may have settled only 4 cities in an entire game, I tend to conquer instead.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Sorry about that, you can't predict TMIT postfighting a random dude, and my spiel was mostly that microing workers is important, and if so, microing fast workers is even better.

More to the point, there's no civ-specific start bias in Civ4. Therefore, starting near deserts and floodplains is just random luck. Having a capital start in the middle of a desert isn't too bad, the terrain generator automatically routes a ton of rivers through your land, turning them into 3food floodplains. Of course, it's cities #2 and onwards that are the problem, so settle along rivers. It's more likely that you haven't played enough games as India.

There shouldn't be any effect on barb spawn rates either, unless you're deliberately altering your playstyle to have huge patches of shadowed land next to your cities. Which often happens when you settle next to the desert, after all, there's no point building an early city in the middle of riverless desert. Neither should there be any effect on diplomacy unless you're using a religion that no one else is in.

 

[Alisdair]

This shouldn't be obviously at all. If you want to succeed in Civ4 you can't go into a game with the attitude that "I'm nation X, therefore I'm going to play like this". Having a preset strategy is not a good thing.

And yes, screenshot and especially a save would also help

I'm sure screen shots would help but I'm not very good on the computer.

I think the whole point of choosing a leader is to narrow down victory types. That's why the leaders differ. Anyone who has industrious should consider the benefits of that attribute heavily in their victory. Similarly, aggressive has warmonger advantages. I think there should be flexibility, but you should have your victory type in your mind narrowed to a few possibilities I think.

 

[Alisdair]

"Casual" players, of which there are very few frequenting this subforum , should not be given information that is objectively wrong when asking for gameplay advice. On most difficulties above prince, it is diplomacy and not military power that deters wars from starting, if they're avoided (that and luck). However, military can keep you alive if diplo fails. The distinction is very important though, and so is recognizing situations where you can lock out ANY chance of DoW. Even below monarch, it's rarely worthwhile to bother spamming troops if you're not using them for some purpose, and doing so doesn't help someone learn to improve. Every choice in the game is made for a reason.



I have found troubles with having a small army and good diplomacy, eventually someone turns on you. French are a key example, they'll be your friend, you can give into every demand and then pow, they'll attack. Similarly, Elizabeth, takes a lot longer, but once I played and we had lots of diplo points and she just dominated with a tank stack like i'd never seen and it was all over.

How can I fix this?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm sure screen shots would help but I'm not very good on the computer.

I think the whole point of choosing a leader is to narrow down victory types. That's why the leaders differ. Anyone who has industrious should consider the benefits of that attribute heavily in their victory. Similarly, aggressive has warmonger advantages. I think there should be flexibility, but you should have your victory type in your mind narrowed to a few possibilities I think.

The problem with this theory is that start positions (specifically, the kind of land you have available and the AI personalities near you) dictate a LOT more than traits. AGG still doesn't look hot rushing into sitting bull or saladin. IND is good for wonders, but not as good as even a warmonger like genghis khan if he gets stone/marble and the IND civ doesn't. You can only play a REX game with expansion traits if there is actually enough land to take that way, etc.

Same deal for victory conditions. India is actually very flexible though; they are certainly good leaders for culture, but PHI allows for a lot of early gambits and functionally speeds tech rate while ORG supports larger/higher distance empires and even coastal cities to an extent. You're going to wind up playing terrain and opponents, not traits.

If you want to pick a VC before game starts, the easiest/best way is to cook the settings a la HoF, giving yourself certain kinds of opposing AI, turning vassals on or off, etc.

 

[Windsor]

I have found troubles with having a small army and good diplomacy, eventually someone turns on you. French are a key example, they'll be your friend, you can give into every demand and then pow, they'll attack. Similarly, Elizabeth, takes a lot longer, but once I played and we had lots of diplo points and she just dominated with a tank stack like i'd never seen and it was all over.

How can I fix this?

I would highly recommend getting a copy of the reference guide it's also available in printer-friendly editions if you want to print a copy.

Elizabeth is one of those AIs who can start planning a war on you even if she's pleased with you. You need to get her to "friendly", then she will never start planning a war against you. Elizabeth is also a bit worrying since she got Free Religion as her favorite civic. So be careful if religion is what makes her your friend, once she gets to liberalism she will switch to Free Religion and you loose the "shared faith" bonus. The nice thing about her is that she really doesn't care if your in a different religion than her and she's willing to trade techs.

The game is always a lot easier if you get those AIs that don't start planning a war once they reach "pleased". But only having the reference guide and checking the stats of the AIs until you really learn them makes the diplo aspect of the game a lot easier.

And a final note, always be careful about the Apostolic Palace. It can give you some nasty DoWs even from friends!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

"Casual" players, of which there are very few frequenting this subforum , should not be given information that is objectively wrong when asking for gameplay advice. On most difficulties above prince, it is diplomacy and not military power that deters wars from starting, if they're avoided (that and luck). However, military can keep you alive if diplo fails. The distinction is very important though, and so is recognizing situations where you can lock out ANY chance of DoW. Even below monarch, it's rarely worthwhile to bother spamming troops if you're not using them for some purpose, and doing so doesn't help someone learn to improve. Every choice in the game is made for a reason.



I have found troubles with having a small army and good diplomacy, eventually someone turns on you. French are a key example, they'll be your friend, you can give into every demand and then pow, they'll attack. Similarly, Elizabeth, takes a lot longer, but once I played and we had lots of diplo points and she just dominated with a tank stack like i'd never seen and it was all over.

How can I fix this?

There is a civivleaderhead xml that shows the dispositions at which each AI will plot war, and their odds of doing so at each disposition. About half will plot at pleased, the other half won't. Nobody plots @ friendly, but cathy can be bribed by someone else @friendly to declare on friendly 3rd parties.

Using diplo to avoid war is paramount to high level play; abusing 10 turn treaties, making sure there's someone they hate more, etc all take planning based on the knowledge in that xml.

Alternatively, you can build a military force. Rarely will a military force deter a DoW unless you're already in a winning position, but it will keep you alive when things go wrong. Even so, that's best to avoid; most wars have SOME associated cost, even if it's just lost trade routes/tech trade opportunities.

 

[obsolete]

Pro is 100% right... And I"m getting sick and tired of that Nazi-Jew TheMeInTeam constantly trolling on these forums just to stir up sh!t!

I'm officially now going to file a complain with the forum admins, and BTW...

Nothing personal, but desperately self aggrandizing forum fascists are something of a bugbear, along with griefers, child molesters, and people who talk in theatres.

100% dead-on again. But how did you know he was a child-molester BTW? Did you obtain his criminal reccords by any chance? I'm just curious about such things... but anyway!!!

TheMeInTeam? Let's stop your crazy sh!t now, ok? Really, I'm getting tired of you just purposely trolling with your antics and causing nothing but trouble for everyone else on this forum.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

Hey, Obsolete.

Stonehenge.

Great Wall.

Oracle.

Pyramids.

The Great Lighthouse.

The Parthenon.

Temple of Artemis.

The Great Library.

Chichen Itza.

There, calmed down now?