Perfection
The Great Head.
Ummm, a common theme throughout the bible is not evidence to it's devine origin. I mean it's not like an author is going to put something completly different in it.
Prove God Exists - Act Three
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cgannon64
BOB DYLAN'S ROCKIN OUT!
Considering it was written by many different people, it at least says something about the strength of their common belief.
Perfection
The Great Head.
Strength of belief does not indicate validity, the pyramids of egypt are a massive monument to the strength of the Ancient Egyptian's beleifs but I think we can all agree that there beliefs weren't "valid".
Blasphemous
Graulich
Okay, fine, you're a veritable diamond among christians.FearlessLeader2 said:
Happy?
My point wasn't even about value, my point was that if you are of those rare "True Christians" and you actually make sense sometimes and actually follow your own holy book as closely as you can, that still doesn't insinuate the existance of deity, and still doesn't mean that christianity as a whole (including whoever calls themselves christian) is as good as you are.
You grossly and insultingly underestimate Humanity if you think as a race we are incapable of thinking of this moral concept and then writing it again and again and again after we've heard it before.FearlessLeader2 said:
Stop taking away Humanity's responsibility by saying god's responsible. It's insulting to us all, and it even may seem like you can't fathom the idea of greater humans than yourself having done great things.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
Given that that is pretty much the exact opposite of what I posted above, and completely off the point, I'd have to say no. Given how many people manage to misinterpret what I post, even though it is spelled out literally in black and white for them, I'm beginning to wonder if half of the English words I think I know mean what I think they mean... The alternatives, that people are either deliberately misinterpreting me so they can attack a strawman or dumb enough to actually not understand plain English (apologies to English-as-a-second language folks, you're excused, but please ask for clarifications if you need them) are too painful to endure.Blasphemous said:
Who said it did?Blasphemous said:
Christianity as a whole does not include 'whoever calls themeself Christian', it includes those who PRACTICE Christianity.Blasphemous said:
Again, completely opposed to what I posted earlier.Blasphemous said:
Very well, I will admit defeat on this point when you show me the writings of another culture besides Judeo-Christian-Islamic that has a 4,500 year written history of preaching 'love thy neighbor'.Blasphemous said:
Responsible for what, exactly?Blasphemous said:
Just about everybody on the earth is greater than me. I rank myself slightly higher than pedophiles and toilet-humor comedians, but well-below plumbers and dog-catchers.Blasphemous said:
Blasphemous
Graulich
That whole arguement had pretty much nothing to do with my original point, I was just trying to wrap it all up and move ahead.FearlessLeader2 said:
Nobody, but nobody had to - this is a thread intended to prove god's exitance, everything you say here is supposed to serve that arguement.FearlessLeader2 said:
And like it or not, your definition of practicing Christianity is not the only one around. In fact, it is very very rarely the definition people go by.FearlessLeader2 said:
I was getting the feeling that you were redifining Christianity and then using this definition to show how good Christianity is, while in reality most practicing christians are nothing like what you describe.FearlessLeader2 said:
This was what this whole arguement was about in the frist place.
Well, seeing as they are all written in very different languages than those of the Middle East and of Europe, and seeing as we are talking about completely, absolutely and utterly different cultures, it would be plain idiocy to expect them to hold the same moral as Judeo-Christianity did for 4,500 years. But I am led to believe that eastern culture has great wisdom that often goes far beyond the simple observation that people love themselves and that it would be better if they loved everyone else as well.FearlessLeader2 said:
For things like 'love thy neighbor'. For things like medical "miracles".FearlessLeader2 said:
Just because something is beyond us personally or individually does not mean it is beyond Humankind as a whole. Religion has one big huge helluva inferiority complex. Humanity holds way more power than we credit ourselves for.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
Hmm, I see a need for a defining of terms before I proceed. Henceforth, I will represent adherents to true Christianity as Christians, and followers of false apostate teachings as Xians. Otherwise it's going to get too darn confusing.
Christians do not believe in medical or any other kind of miracles happening since the time when Christ walked the earth in physical form, other than when one uses the term miracle to mean beating hugely long-shot, but still possible odds. Christ himself warned us that people would come along claiming to drive out demons and do all sorts of things in his name, but that when the time came, he would say to them, 'I never knew you.' That was a warning that God was not in the miracle business anymore. Xians, cut off from the Word by their clergy leaders and the ungodly laity-clergy barrier, were never apprised of this, and therefore think nothing of ascribing to God the success of these long-odds events.
While I agree than man has made some miracles of his own, like the Apollo missions, gene therapy, and Ray Charles, all of them are really just long odds that happened anyway. (Though we really all ought to get down on our knees and thank God for Ray Charles' being born! WTG, God!!
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Christians do not believe in medical or any other kind of miracles happening since the time when Christ walked the earth in physical form, other than when one uses the term miracle to mean beating hugely long-shot, but still possible odds. Christ himself warned us that people would come along claiming to drive out demons and do all sorts of things in his name, but that when the time came, he would say to them, 'I never knew you.' That was a warning that God was not in the miracle business anymore. Xians, cut off from the Word by their clergy leaders and the ungodly laity-clergy barrier, were never apprised of this, and therefore think nothing of ascribing to God the success of these long-odds events.
While I agree than man has made some miracles of his own, like the Apollo missions, gene therapy, and Ray Charles, all of them are really just long odds that happened anyway. (Though we really all ought to get down on our knees and thank God for Ray Charles' being born! WTG, God!!
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Who made you the arbitor of christianity? If I were to choose to call my self christian, your opinion in the matter is irrelevant. IIRC jesus never mentioned the word chrstian or separated himself and his followers into any exclusive group.FearlessLeader2 said:
John 17:15,16Birdjaguar said:
15 I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.''
Jesus' quote about his followers, talking to his father.
Birdjaguar said:
BJ, you may be interested in the discussion that went on in the thread True Christianity.
Regards
.
FearlessLeader2
Fundamentalist Loon
No one made me the arbiter. Jesus made ALL OF US the arbiters, when he said:Birdjaguar said:
Matthew 7:15-20 said:
If evil men who prey on children, and the organization that protects them are accepted representatives of the One True God, then He is not worthy of worship. In light of what Jesus said above, it seems obvious that they are not, and that He(God, not Jesus) therefore is.
EDIT 2: This above paragraph is the crux of what I am getting at (took me long enough!). You seek to refute Christianity based on the actions of Xianity. That is an apples and oranges fallacy. And before someone digs up the Scotsman, I made it pretty clear above what the difference between the two is, and I'm not changing it. Christianity cannot be refuted based on actions taken by Xians, anymore than the testimony of an eyewitness to a crime in Chicago can be refuted by a Kalahari bushman who has never left Africa.
EDIT: I can call myself the King of Karaoke if I want to, but if I can't sing worth a darn, no one is going to believe me. People who call themselves Christians, and make a habit of doing unChristian things, are not Christians, they're Xians.
Blasphemous
Graulich
Okay FL2, your point has been made.
Now can we please get back to the thread's topic that actually regards deity and not religion?
Now can we please get back to the thread's topic that actually regards deity and not religion?
Perfection
The Great Head.
Yeah, less ranting more proving!
Blasphemous
Graulich
Yes, I realize that, but I feel we're going off topic here since the question of "what is a Christian" is not one that will lead to conclusion in regards to the existance of any kind of god.Inter32 said:
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
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I call upon the religionists to summarise all proof of a god they have gathered so far in these debates.
Not counting personal and anecdotal accounts.
As we know, they are making the claims and the burden of proof is on them.
Not counting personal and anecdotal accounts.
As we know, they are making the claims and the burden of proof is on them.
"Words are like slippery pigs." I was referring to followers beyond the immediate diciples. And I agree, in your quote he is identifying his diciples as a special group in need of god's protection.Inter32 said:
Shortly thereafter (verse 20-21), jesus prays for future followers brought to him by the diciples, buts asks that they be joined to him "That they may all be one; even as thou, father, art in me, and I in thee, that they may also be in in us so that..."
I read this as jesus asking god to open the door and let all his future followers become one with god just as jesus is one with god. He is not asking for a church, but total immersion with the godhead.
You have divided folks into at least two groups Christians and Xtians one of whom you designate as false and the other true. You feel qualified to make the decision on who falls into which group and you quote a few verses to back up the claim. This is mere "slight of hand" and no different than prostestants saying that catholics are false xtians and you should ignore their evil ways and follow us. Or baptists saying all catholics and all other non baptist prostestants are false Xtians, so come and be cleansed.FearlessLeader2 said:
Now I do agree that evil false Xtians however you define them should not be used to try to refute Christian Truth. If true, Christian Truth does not need any validation from mortal souls. Truth is Truth. And your version of it is just that: your version of it, because you are merely human you cannot know or even understand god's truth.
PHSikes
Retired Squid
From my past teachings I was told that the BIG "C", Church, is the Boby of Christ. That is, all the Believers. The little "c" church is where this body meets. This, of course, ignores all titles of religions, sects, etc.
yes and this raises the question of who, other than god, decides which believers are included in the big C. Of course, I'm probably the best judge.
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